Discussion in 'The Avengers Sequels' started by Silvermoth, Aug 13, 2012.
I would love to see the Dark Avengers but I know that would never happen.
Okay, I'm pretty new to comics (thanks to the Avengers), but I've been reading up lots of summaries on the wikis (as well as some of the actual comics -- mostly Civil War and parts of Iron Man from Extremis to present), trying to figure out the major plot arcs of the Marvel continuity. Here are my thoughts on Avengers 2, starting with the assumption that the big showdown with Thanos isn't until A3, and that MS doesn't recover rights to Galactus. I'm also assuming that Ultron is in Ant Man, but doesn't reappear in A2 (granted I don't really know much about Ultron yet, but I think he's not cosmic?).
We know MCU is going cosmic, but Joss has said he wants something more intimate & personal. But how do we reconcile the two? Insted of just picking who the next major villian is, I'm trying to approach this from a dramatic standpoint -- what is the "next logical thing" that has to happen to these characters? They've proven they can cooperate as a team to overcome an external threat greater than all of them, but for them to really grow and come together as a team, they have to build up their trust in each other. In addition, they will have to deal with the fallout from the first movie which is (1) Due to the tesseract, cosmic forces are now aware that Earth is ready to play in the big league, (2) the general public, and the government, are now aware of the existence of heroes and what they can do. We saw hints of a hero-hostile government in IM2, and IIRC, of mixed public opinion in the news clips at the end of TA. It's only logical to see more "post-superhero" fallout in IM3 (and Cap2?), and A2.
While MCU isn't 616 continuity, it seems to remold various aspects from multiple stories and mesh them together (for instance, Steve & Tony's "big man in a suit" spat deliberately recalls their being at odds in CW). The name of the story arc that suggested itself to me as being both cosmic and personal was "Secret Invasion" -- alien Skrulls infiltrating Earth, and Kree fighting them.
So here's what I think it might look like. It would combine elements of Kree-Skrull War, Secret Invasion, and possibly bits of Disassembled, Dark Reign, and Civil War (no, this would not follow the CW plot).
- GotG will establish the existence of the Kree (and probably the Skrull). It will also develop Thanos further.
- Early in A2, at least Star Lord (and maybe RR?) will warn Avengers/SHEILD of Skrull/Kree/Thanos.
- At some point, maybe we learn that Thanos has destroyed the Skrull homeworld? (since, no Galactus). Is that in-character for Thanos?
- The Skrull have infiltrated Earth, replacing top government officials and possibly heroes.
- The governemnt (infiltrated by Skrull) turns public opinion against heroes, and may even look at anti-hero legistlation. This would recall CW, but would *not* be CW.
- Because of shapeshifters, the heroes aren't sure who they can trust anymore -- even amongst themselves.
- The Council has probably also been infiltrated (which is why they were against Fury in TA) and tries to disolve SHEILD.
- Nick Fury will die, but it will be a LMD, and the real Fury will go into hiding.
- The Kree are fighting the Skrull, and have a soldier/spy on Earth named Mar-Vell. The Avengers must find him.
- They are aided by SHEILD's toughest quinjet pilot, Captain Danvers (whom Joss will write brilliantly).
- Ms. Marvel's origin is probably too much to include in TA2, but it would be all set up for a future Phase 3 film if desired.
- If they want to make IH2 with the Planet Hulk story, he could get shot into space sometime during this film.
- At some point, Hawkeye discovers Black Widow is actually the Skrull queen and has to kill her (no need to confuse the GA with Spider Woman, who just sounds like a Spiderman knock-off, when we already have an existing heroine named after a spider with potentially questionable loyalties. Also gives Clint a bit of payback.).
- At some point, Tony could discover that Steve has been replaced by a Skrull, and have to kill him (allowing the death of "Captain America").
For Phase 3, we'd be set for Thor 3, Captain America 3, Captain (Ms.) Marvel, and possibly: Hulk 2, GotG 2, BP, and *maybe* IM4. Obviously, a lot of this would depend on how well phase 2 does.
I think the Skrull invasion storyline would be a mistake for the sequel. Not because there isn't good stuff to mine there, but because the camaraderie between these characters has yet to be fully established. If you look at something like the Pirates sequels you can see how quickly the "who can you trust?" storyline can kill the family feel of a great ensemble cast, and suck a large portion of the fun out of the picture.
I would look more towards stuff like the Empire Strikes Back or The Two Towers, where the heroes are not split up by mistrust and paranoia but by diverging arcs within the overall plot.
Totally agree Chewy. Splitting the team into 2 or 3 groups would give more time for character interaction and more versatile action scenes (as compared to everyone battling 1 villain). It also offers a better opportunity to introduce Black Panther (one story arc could be set in Wakanda) and Carol Danvers without taking significant time from our 6 heroes (7 if Falcon comes along) and Nick Fury/SHIELD. And Thanos could still be pulling the strings in the background.
I have to agree with Chewy and Gary Griffith on this one, however...
I want to welcome you, cph9fa, to the boards and thank you for your well thought-out and insightful post. A lot of what you said would actually be great, like the public turning on the heroes bit!
Thanks for the welcome! Those are actually some really good points, that I don't completely disagree with. I think it probably could be done, but it would be risky, and I'll concede it might not be the best option. Like I said... it's just what came to my mind with the conflicting directions of personal & cosmic, and with my limited (so-far) exposure to the comic arcs. I'm imagining how these characters can continue to organically develop their trust, and then have it tested. But *If* something like what I suggested were to happen, then I think any inter-hero mistrust would either have to be minimized (maybe if it were only revealed in the 3rd act?), or even removed altogether -- maybe just the government & council have been infiltrated... (I don't trust those shadows that boss Fury around!). I *really* like Chewy's idea to "split the party" by diverging plot lines, and I definitely want to see something of Wakanda at some point.
(Actually, Pirates might have been a good example. All I can remember from the 2nd movie is: a giant hamster wheel, a jar of dirt, Cthulhu plays the organ, and Jack gets swallowed. I forget what turned me off, but at some point, I realized I had less than zero interest in seeing another one. I'm still surprised they made the 3rd film. What? There's more???)
This just occurred to me (so it might be a really bad idea) but now I wonder if there would be any benefit to starting A2 in media res, just before the end of a strong action sequence with the Avengers already assembled, and handily defeating some new threat (who may not necessarily be related to rest of the film). Then after the battle maybe they get a call from Hill that Fury was assassinated, or the GotG arrive with dire news, or something else crazy like that, and boom, the real plot starts. On the one hand, doing that could save a lot of screen time by demonstrating that fighting bad guys together is "what they do" now, and that they've already created a sort of camaraderie -- as well as grabbing the audience with a nice action hook, and re-introducing the characters through little quips of dialog. OTOH, I can see how it could cheapen the development of those bonds if it isn't shown on screen -- but forging those bonds is what the first movie was all about, right? We don't need to sit through that every time they assemble.
The way I'm viewing the (presumed) Avengers trilogy is as a 3-act play, on a cosmic scale, with the whole Avengers team (as a single entity) being the Protagonist and Thanos being the Antagonist. The first act introduced the two characters with a big win for the Avengers, and now the second act will need to start with that high point, and then introduce complications.
The Avengers 2: Age of Ultron. The team may destroy Ultron, but it results in many casualties, including Nick Fury. Maria Hill, now in control of SHIELD, dissolves the Avengers and superheroes go into hiding, with the exception of Captain America who works for SHIELD. The public don't trust them any more, as Ultron's kill count was in the hundred millions.
Plant seeds for the Kree-Skrull war in the movie, and Secret Invasion. This threat rises in Avengers 3, and the Avengers need to re-Assemble to save the planet. They soon realise the invasion was orchestrated by Thanos, leading into an Infinity Gauntlet trilogy.
I guess as a greedy fan, I would want to see every story that would force them to assemble, but storytelling-wise, I can understand what you're getting at, especially if you want to move things along.
I would say it's easier to "skip ahead in the story" with tighter-knit movie franchises like Star Wars, where you have already assembled the team and where there is a clear conflict that viewers can follow (between the rebels and the Empire). Seeing Luke, Leia, and Han in a new context and further along in the timeline in Episode V still makes sense to audiences because that's pretty much where we last saw them at the end of Episode IV. (Also, scrolling narration at the beginning of the movie helps.) With the MCU, the one known threat that brought them together has been defeated, the team has disassembled, and the heroes will have had their own separate adventures in between. In context, it would be jarring to show that these guys have been together for a period of time and formed some sort of camaraderie between TA and TA2 when what audiences will have seen between 2012 and 2015 is the opposite of that.
At least with TA2, I believe their first "re-assembly" is a worthy story to tell, especially if IM3, T:TDW, and CA:TWS greatly affects the Big Three individually. If you can establish a new status quo at the end of TA2 where they are an organized team, and if you can make Thor 3 and CA3 fit into that status quo, then I think audiences would more easily buy into seeing them in media res in TA3.
Now I actually like the idea of joining them media res, but I would say I think it would be more effective to show it on a smaller scale. Something like this:
We open up the movie to show S.H.I.E.L.D. doing a raid on some bunker. A weapons dealer/something like that (throw in the name of some minor villain as a nod towards the fans). However, the S.H.I.E.L.D. team is outnumbered and outgunned. Backup arrives in the form of Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Cap who add some serious muscle to the S.H.I.E.L.D. team.
Suddenly Iron Man lands in the middle of the fight and just finishes the baddies off. Maybe he could even deliver some remark about "Sometimes you don't need back-up, you just need a bigger gun." Cut to opening title.
I wouldn't want to see the WHOLE team assembled from the start, but it would be nice to bring together a few of them early on.
An interesting way to show inter-hero mistrust would be a reveal that, after Avengers, Tony developed what we know as 'Hulkbuster' armor. For him, it was a worst case scenario idea, but Bruce takes offense to it. It would be interesting to see considering the friendship between the two we saw beginning to form during Avengers.
Ooh, I like the quick build-up idea, and I really like that line for Tony. I can practically hear him saying it now! :-D
I don't know what order I'd want these in...but:
Ultron: Busiek's Ultron Unlimited + Bendis's Ultron Imperative.
Kang: Avengers Forever, but with Kang taking Immortus's place, and Iron Lad taking Kang's. Or a Kang Dynasty movie.
Masters of Evil: Under Siege
Thanos: Avengers Annual #7
Avengers: Under Siege/Ultimates 2: Grand Theft America
The bad guys team up to take down The Avengers.
I know someone has probably already mentioned this, but I think it would be AWESOME if they did the whole skrull-kree conflict in a later Avengers film. (Avengers 3 perhaps?) I enjoyed the way it was presented in Avengers : Earth's Mightiest Heroes(Although I haven't read the comic myself).