The Force Awakens Who are Rey's parents (speculation)

[Tg11]

If anything since we know Rey was left into the care of Unkar Plutt junk dealer as a child but the question is is who sold her to him to begin with? If anything because whoever left Rey into the car of Unkar definitely did that to protect Rey and if that is the case if it was one of her parents or both of them who did it makes me wonder just who her parent or parents are? But better yet if Rey is Force sensitive then how is that even possible? Especially when she had no Force training at all to begin with and not to mention holding her own against Kylo Ren a Jedi turned Sith apprentice who had years of training

Either Rey she has to be a long-lost Skywalker somehow or she has to be of some relation to Obi-Wan Kenobi

 

[DarthSkywalker]

She is Luke's daughter imo. I have no idea where this Obi-Wan stuff has come from, but she doesn't walk around with the Kenobi saber.

 

[David H.]

She's Lyanna and Rhaegar's daughter. Duh.

 

[Broseph44]

There's only one person that knows the true answer to this.

 

[Mask&Cape]

If anything since we know Rey was left into the care of Unkar Plutt junk dealer as a child but the question is is who sold her to him to begin with? If anything because whoever left Rey into the car of Unkar definitely did that to protect Rey and if that is the case if it was one of her parents or both of them who did it makes me wonder just who her parent or parents are? But better yet if Rey is Force sensitive then how is that even possible? Especially when she had no Force training at all to begin with and not to mention holding her own against Kylo Ren a Jedi turned Sith apprentice who had years of training

Either Rey she has to be a long-lost Skywalker somehow or she has to be of some relation to Obi-Wan Kenobi

Why does Rey "have to be a Skywalker" or a Kenobi?

Abrams and Kasdan made it quite clear that she not - Maz tells her, and not so deep down she knows, that her family is not coming back and the "longing" she feels is not for the past but for the future. The meaning being that where she comes from no longer matters and neither should the identity of her parents (to the audience as Rey already knows who they are - no mention in the film that she doesn't know and she was old enough when abandoned to remember).

Kylo Ren being Han and Leia's son has filled the Sequel Trilogy's quota of surprise family connections. Another one would just be overkill.

A Kenobi? It is possible that Obi-Wan had siblings but why make Rey a long lost grand-niece or even grand daughter? Simply having the surname of Luke's first teacher won't make any difference to any relationship between them.

I believe raft the reason why Rey's surname was not revealed in the build up to TFA was not to keep secret who she is, but rather to keep secret who she wasn't.
We will probably be told her surname in the lead up to Episode VIII or in the film itself. Unless there isnt surname in her original culture it she simply never goes by it again as that name no longer has meaning for her - another unanswered SW mystery .

I think it is possible that might "become" a Skywalker before the trilogy concludes - that she takes the name to forge a new identity to match her new life or simply that Luke becomes like a father or brother to her (like Anakin and Obi-Wan but with a happier ending )

 

[X Knight]

Rey has to a Skywalker - specifically Luke's daughter. too many giant flashing neon signs pointing to that in TFA.

 

[Mask&Cape]

Rey has to a Skywalker - specifically Luke's daughter. too many giant flashing neon signs pointing to that in TFA.

What "giant signs"?

The X-Wing helmet? The doll?

Red herrings simply meant to distract us and have us guessing.

Nothing in the film was any states that she HAS to be the daughter or relative of any previously known character. Quite the opposite - they made a point of telling us that Rey was abandoning her past, of Maz telling her family was never coming back.

Why would Luke abandon his own child into poverty and practical slavery rather than leave her with his sister or with people who would love her? Rey is old enough in the Force vision to remember who her family is - that the "myth" (in her own words) is her father or her idol (Han Solo) is her uncle.

And why does neither Leia or Han comment that Luke lost more than his Jedi apprentices and nephew? Why does neither Han or Leia think that this girl has the same name as their "missing" niece and matches her age? Why does the film end without Luke recognising her?

In the film (I don't know about the novelisation) Rey never gives specifics about her family - both parents or just a mother & siblings - and it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that Luke had a child he didn't know about but the fact is that effort was made to point out that Rey was letting go of her past and looking to the future - to suddenly just alter that to make her a Skywalker just for the sake of it makes no sense.

 

[X Knight]

What "giant signs"?

The X-Wing helmet? The doll?

Red herrings simply meant to distract us and have us guessing.

Nothing in the film was any states that she HAS to be the daughter or relative of any previously known character. Quite the opposite - they made a point of telling us that Rey was abandoning her past, of Maz telling her family was never coming back.

Why would Luke abandon his own child into poverty and practical slavery rather than leave her with his sister or with people who would love her? Rey is old enough in the Force vision to remember who her family is - that the "myth" (in her own words) is her father or her idol (Han Solo) is her uncle.

And why does neither Leia or Han comment that Luke lost more than his Jedi apprentices and nephew? Why does neither Han or Leia think that this girl has the same name as their "missing" niece and matches her age? Why does the film end without Luke recognising her?

In the film (I don't know about the novelisation) Rey never gives specifics about her family - both parents or just a mother & siblings - and it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that Luke had a child he didn't know about but the fact is that effort was made to point out that Rey was letting go of her past and looking to the future - to suddenly just alter that to make her a Skywalker just for the sake of it makes no sense.

while it's true no specifics were given, there were several "big clues" that point to Rey being a Skywalker.

1. The Skywalker Saber

They made a specific point to highlight the lineage of the saber ( it belonged to Luke, to his father before him, and now it calls to Rey ).

They didn't say that the sword was passed down from master to apprentice ( Kenobi to Luke to Rey ). They made a point to highlight the generational lineage of the sword - the Skywalker family.

Also, Rey's force powers started to awaken when she was in close proximity to the sword. and when she touched the sword, she experienced visions of the past and future that involved Anakin/Vader, Luke, and herself.

And, in the final battle, when both Kylo and Rey used the force to pull the sword from the snow, it chose Rey.

There's also parallel symbolism in how Kylo offered his sword to his father but then killed him - suggesting Kylo was unable to let go of that power and the lure of the dark side. Contrast that to Rey who freely offered the sword to Luke - suggesting she has no desire for that sword and power for herself.

2. Rey's "Safe Place" Dreams

Another big clue is when Kylo probes Rey's mind and sees her "safe place" that she dreams in her mind to escape the lonely deserts of Jakku.

What does she imagine in her mind? An island in the middle of an ocean.

And where do we find Luke at the end? An island in the middle of an ocean.

3. Too many similarities to Luke and Anakin

There are also way too many similarities between Rey and Luke and Anakin.

All 3 grow up on a desert planet.

All 3 are gifted pilots and mechanics.

And by the end, Rey "inherits" the Skywalker saber, the Falcon, Chewie, and R2.

So, to me, it seems they went way out of their way to drop these hints that Rey is a Skywalker, and most likely Luke's daughter.

And as for your other points:

1. It's possible that Rey isn't even her real name and some of the supplementary material suggests that may be the case ( the name on the pilot helmet she has on Jakku is a name similar to Rey ).

2. I agree with you that it would seem out of character for Luke to leave his daughter on a hostile planet in the care of someone like the junk dealer. However, it's also possible that someone else could have left her there. Someone like Kylo Ren. He seemed to know more about her than he was letting on. Namely, when the officer told him that BB8 was with a "girl on Jakku," Kylo immediately snapped and asked "What girl??!" Like that triggered something in him.

3. As for why Rey doesn't remember who Luke is ( or Han ), it's possible she could have had her memory Force wiped. And again, that could have been done by Kylo, who was shown to be proficient in the mental aspects of the Force.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

There's like 3 threads on this now outside the Rey thread lol

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=508109
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=508193

Anastasia and the force awakens have strikingly similar stories.

https://mobile.twitter.com/mrjettlucas/status/688461925584261120

 

[X Knight]

There's like 3 threads on this now outside the Rey thread lol

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=508109
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=508193



https://mobile.twitter.com/mrjettlucas/status/688461925584261120

well, Anastasia is about a royal princess who survives the massacre of her family, develops amnesia, assumes a new identity, and eventually reclaims her true heritage and birthright.

In the SW universe, the Skywalker family is essentially royalty.

There was a massacre / tragic event ( Kylo wiping out Luke's academy ). I know that there are conflicting timeline reports. But, a popular theory is that Rey was a student at Luke's academy and she survived the massacre ( though was thought dead ).

so Rey survives the massacre and develops amnesia - whether that's self inflicted, due to the trauma, or due to Kylo wiping out her mind with the Force.

Rey adopts a new name, "Rey", based on the helmet she finds and keeps, and she grows up on Jakku unaware of her true heritage.

by the end of the film, she does discover her true heritage and birthright when she meets her father Luke.

hmmm........

edit: just read up on the Anastasia film some more, and there are a few more similarities between Anya and Rey.

apparently, Anya grows up in a cruel orphanage. just like Rey grows up under the care of that "cruel" junk dealer.

also, a family "heirloom" helps both Anya and Rey find their family. For Anya, it's a necklace and for Rey, it's the Skywalker saber.

Finally, both Anya and Rey are attacked by the villain at the end, only for the male protags ( Dmitri and Finn ) to get hurt while protecting the girls. Both Anya and Rey are filled with "anger" and "hatred" and lash out and attack the villain, defeating him.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

 

[The Caped Knight]

well, anastasia is about a royal princess who survives the massacre of her family, develops amnesia, assumes a new identity, and eventually reclaims her true heritage and birthright.

In the sw universe, the skywalker family is essentially royalty.

There was a massacre / tragic event ( kylo wiping out luke's academy ). I know that there are conflicting timeline reports. But, a popular theory is that rey was a student at luke's academy and she survived the massacre ( though was thought dead ).

So rey survives the massacre and develops amnesia - whether that's self inflicted, due to the trauma, or due to kylo wiping out her mind with the force.

Rey adopts a new name, "rey", based on the helmet she finds and keeps, and she grows up on jakku unaware of her true heritage.

By the end of the film, she does discover her true heritage and birthright when she meets her father luke.

Hmmm........

edit: Just read up on the anastasia film some more, and there are a few more similarities between anya and rey.

Apparently, anya grows up in a cruel orphanage. Just like rey grows up under the care of that "cruel" junk dealer.

Also, a family "heirloom" helps both anya and rey find their family. For anya, it's a necklace and for rey, it's the skywalker saber.

Finally, both anya and rey are attacked by the villain at the end, only for the male protags ( dmitri and finn ) to get hurt while protecting the girls. Both anya and rey are filled with "anger" and "hatred" and lash out and attack the villain, defeating him.

boom! The Daughter of Skywalker!

 

[Mask&Cape]

while it's true no specifics were given, there were several "big clues" that point to Rey being a Skywalker.

1. The Skywalker Saber

They made a specific point to highlight the lineage of the saber ( it belonged to Luke, to his father before him, and now it calls to Rey ).

They didn't say that the sword was passed down from master to apprentice ( Kenobi to Luke to Rey ). They made a point to highlight the generational lineage of the sword - the Skywalker family.

It isn't the lightsabre that is calling, it is the Force. And going by TCW and Rebels the crystal in the lightsabre.

However, what I see this as being is Maz pointing out to Rey that this is a big deal - it belonged to the Skywalkers but now reaches out to someone else.

Also, Rey's force powers started to awaken when she was in close proximity to the sword. and when she touched the sword, she experienced visions of the past and future that involved Anakin/Vader, Luke, and herself.

Snoke and Kylo discuss the awakening earlier in the film so this isn't it.

And the vision doesn't involve Anakin - it Luke and Kylo with some Vader.

And, in the final battle, when both Kylo and Rey used the force to pull the sword from the snow, it chose Rey.

No it doesn't. In that moment, Rey is simply stronger and more determined.

There's also parallel symbolism in how Kylo offered his sword to his father but then killed him - suggesting Kylo was unable to let go of that power and the lure of the dark side. Contrast that to Rey who freely offered the sword to Luke - suggesting she has no desire for that sword and power for herself.

This isn't something I hadn't realised nor heard anyone else discuss. Very good on catch on your part. However, I disagree as to the meaning of this - it was showing the differences in the two lead characters not a familial connection.

2. Rey's "Safe Place" Dreams

Another big clue is when Kylo probes Rey's mind and sees her "safe place" that she dreams in her mind to escape the lonely deserts of Jakku.

What does she imagine in her mind? An island in the middle of an ocean.

And where do we find Luke at the end? An island in the middle of an ocean.

Yes, and her dreams are a vision of the place where a powerful Jedi lives. Thos simply means they have a connection much like Luke and Yoda - Luke says Dagobah is familiar and like some place out of a dream. Kasdan was connecting this to Luke's quest in TESB.

3. Too many similarities to Luke and Anakin

There are also way too many similarities between Rey and Luke and Anakin.

All 3 grow up on a desert planet.

All 3 are gifted pilots and mechanics.

And by the end, Rey "inherits" the Skywalker saber, the Falcon, Chewie, and R2.

I disagree about the planet. It was simply meant to parallel the lives of the previous heroes as coming from nothing. And in pretty much my only criticism of the film it was just too much of a parallel - a desolate planet does not need to be sand. Anyway, if it was intended to hint at a family connection then why now just go for Tatooine, which it was in all but name.

So, to me, it seems they went way out of their way to drop these hints that Rey is a Skywalker, and most likely Luke's daughter.

I agree that they seemed to trying to hint art this but it is clear from how everything turned out that these were simply red herrings meant not to hint at who Rey is but rather to distract us from who she isn't.

And as for your other points:

1. It's possible that Rey isn't even her real name and some of the supplementary material suggests that may be the case ( the name on the pilot helmet she has on Jakku is a name similar to Rey ).

No. To everyone she is now Rey. To suddenly turn around in a future film and give her a new name isn't very likely. It would be like Luke finding out in ROTJ that Luke Skywalker was a fake name used to hide him and suddenly calling him Paul Starkiller.

2. I agree with you that it would seem out of character for Luke to leave his daughter on a hostile planet in the care of someone like the junk dealer. However, it's also possible that someone else could have left her there. Someone like Kylo Ren. He seemed to know more about her than he was letting on. Namely, when the officer told him that BB8 was with a "girl on Jakku," Kylo immediately snapped and asked "What girl??!" Like that triggered something in him.

No, he was simply enraged at finding out that someone was helping the traitor. If he had some connection to her, then why in their first meeting does he say "so you are the girl I keep hearing about" and back on Starkiller Base why does he not mention some shared history to her? He clearly wants to turn her against Han and the Resistance (and later to have her join him) - so why not tempt her by revealing any such past?

3. As for why Rey doesn't remember who Luke is ( or Han ), it's possible she could have had her memory Force wiped. And again, that could have been done by Kylo, who was shown to be proficient in the mental aspects of the Force.

Very true, and while this is possible it is just unlikely to be the case. To put it simply it would just be bad storytelling - a silly gimmick to deliver a surprise twist just for the sake of it.

The shocking family revelation has been delivered - it is Kylo Ren's true identity and his murder of his father. There won't be another because now we'll be told the consequences of this and be told more about how came about. This isn't a soap opera where everyone is related and having affairs. The rest of the trilogy will have plenty of surprises but it will not be delivering shock parentage again and again.

TFA made it very clear that Rey is just Rey. Rey Who? It no longer matters because she put that behind her. Just like the ligtsabre symbolism - Kylo Ren had to finally abandon Ben Solo, Rey had to abandon her waiting for someone who is coming.

 

[X Knight]

Maz clearly said that the Saber is calling to Rey. of course the Saber is using the Force to do it. or you could say the Force is using the Saber.

either way, the Force is drawing Rey to a specific object - the Saber. The Force wants Rey to take the saber. The Force didn't call to Kylo when he was in the area, even though he's a powerful Force user. otherwise, Kylo would have tracked down Finn and taken the Saber from him right then and there.

No. The Force specifically called to Rey and led her to the Saber.

and they made a specific point to trace lineage of that Saber. It was Luke's, his father's before him, and now it's calling to Rey.

so, you have Father -> Son -> and now..........Rey. the logical next step in that sequence is for Rey to be Luke's daughter.

The saber's lineage isn't from Master to Apprentice. Nor is it from legendary hero to legendary hero.

instead, they specifically highlighted the Skywalker lineage of the saber. and when they do that, you expect the new hero to be part of that lineage.

of course, it could all be misdirection as you said. but then, that feels like misdirection for the sake of misdirection.

if Rey's parents end up being some unknown characters the audience has no connection to, the reveal would be rather anticlimactic if you ask me. And if that's the case, then why go through all the effort to make Rey's past a mystery?

 

[X Knight]

also, I just watched the film again last night.

in the final scene, both Rey and Luke are on the verge of tears when they meet face to face. you can see it in their expressions. It felt almost like a tearful reunion of sorts. Like Luke is seeing someone again who he thought was long gone ( be it a former student or more powerfully, his daughter ).

if Rey is some random unknown who had no prior connection to Luke, then that last scene loses a lot of its power, if you ask me.

if Rey was just delivering the saber to the legendary myth/hero she's heard so many stories about, she would be elated and excited to finally meet her idol.

but that's not what happens. there's a lot of sadness and longing on both of their faces when they meet.

for me, it feels like they have some prior connection that will be explored in the next film.

 

[Hotwire]

Maz clearly said that the Saber is calling to Rey. of course the Saber is using the Force to do it. or you could say the Force is using the Saber.

either way, the Force is drawing Rey to a specific object - the Saber. The Force wants Rey to take the saber. The Force didn't call to Kylo when he was in the area, even though he's a powerful Force user. otherwise, Kylo would have tracked down Finn and taken the Saber from him right then and there.

No. The Force specifically called to Rey and led her to the Saber.

and they made a specific point to trace lineage of that Saber. It was Luke's, his father's before him, and now it's calling to Rey.

so, you have Father -> Son -> and now..........Rey. the logical next step in that sequence is for Rey to be Luke's daughter.

The saber's lineage isn't from Master to Apprentice. Nor is it from legendary hero to legendary hero.

instead, they specifically highlighted the Skywalker lineage of the saber. and when they do that, you expect the new hero to be part of that lineage.

of course, it could all be misdirection as you said. but then, that feels like misdirection for the sake of misdirection.

if Rey's parents end up being some unknown characters the audience has no connection to, the reveal would be rather anticlimactic if you ask me. And if that's the case, then why go through all the effort to make Rey's past a mystery?

Just food for thought; in the novelization, when the saber flies into Rey's hand, Kylo says, "It is you!" Just think on that.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Pablo Hidalgo, Lucasfilm Story Group has been explaining it this way:

Kylo Ren to Rey: "It is you."

• "Reading a lot made of Kylo saying, 'it is you,' in the novel, but he says the same in the movie. Which is a callback to the awakening line." (December 24, 2015) "[What is evident in the film?] 'there's been an awakening. Have you felt it?' / 'It is you.'" (December 24, 2015)
• "[Is Kylo's line 'It is you' canon? And is it recognition or him acknowledging that she represents the awakening?] Based on all that's in the film story, it's [Kylo Ren] recognizing [Rey as] what Snoke described as an awakening. Let's see what happens." (February 23, 2016)

 

[X Knight]

of course Pablo is going to explain the "It is You" line that way.

he's going to try to avoid spoiling the reveal ( whoever Rey's parents are ).

 

[CGHulk]

Rey is definitely the granddaughter of Anakin Skywalker, he was really good at fixing things and as a child he naturally could pilot a pod race, he had Jedi reflexes. Rey has these same innate abilities.

 

[Mask&Cape]

Maz clearly said that the Saber is calling to Rey. of course the Saber is using the Force to do it. or you could say the Force is using the Saber.

Yes, I know Maz said the sabre. I was simply pointing out that it was actually the Force through the lightsabre, and more specifically the crystal, if we go by what we have learned in TCW and Rebels. For the purposes of the movie, where many in the audience will not know about crystals, etc., it is simply easier to just say it is the lightsabre (lightsabre and crystal are the sane thing anyway) - that is assuming that Kasdan and Abrams were thinking of crystals, etc.,

either way, the Force is drawing Rey to a specific object - the Saber. The Force wants Rey to take the saber. The Force didn't call to Kylo when he was in the area, even though he's a powerful Force user. otherwise, Kylo would have tracked down Finn and taken the Saber from him right then and there.

Yes, and you'll get no argument from me - this is what happens in the film.

I'm not saying the Force wasn't calling to Rey - again I was simply pointing out what the past stories have told us about lightsabres.

No. The Force specifically called to Rey and led her to the Saber.

Again, I never said it didn't.

and they made a specific point to trace lineage of that Saber. It was Luke's, his father's before him, and now it's calling to Rey.

so, you have Father -> Son -> and now..........Rey. the logical next step in that sequence is for Rey to be Luke's daughter.

The saber's lineage isn't from Master to Apprentice. Nor is it from legendary hero to legendary hero.

instead, they specifically highlighted the Skywalker lineage of the saber. and when they do that, you expect the new hero to be part of that lineage.

Yes, Maz explained it was father to son, but this doesn't mean Rey is related. It simply means that Rey being called is significant and the very same scene Maz tells Rey that he needs to let go of her past and that no-one is coming back for her. A lot of people seem to be overlooking that.

of course, it could all be misdirection as you said. but then, that feels like misdirection for the sake of misdirection.

if Rey's parents end up being some unknown characters the audience has no connection to, the reveal would be rather anticlimactic if you ask me. And if that's the case, then why go through all the effort to make Rey's past a mystery?

It's not ALL misdirection, because much it is fan speculation that has taken on a life of it's own.

Why does the audience need a connection to Rey's family? We have a connection to Rey.

What "effort"? All they did was not tell us her surname and the fandom did the rest.

also, I just watched the film again last night.

in the final scene, both Rey and Luke are on the verge of tears when they meet face to face. you can see it in their expressions. It felt almost like a tearful reunion of sorts. Like Luke is seeing someone again who he thought was long gone ( be it a former student or more powerfully, his daughter ).

Rey had been through some pretty traumatic events, and she was there before Luke to forever alter the course of her life.

Luke had been through the mill himself and was now being confronted, after years of isolation, with more painful reminders of his failures and losses, and had no doubt sense the lose of his best friend.

if Rey is some random unknown who had no prior connection to Luke, then that last scene loses a lot of its power, if you ask me.

Why? It is a turning point in both their lives. Rey will never go back to a normal life and Luke is confronted by painful reminders and must decide if he can be a teacher again.

if Rey was just delivering the saber to the legendary myth/hero she's heard so many stories about, she would be elated and excited to finally meet her idol.

but that's not what happens. there's a lot of sadness and longing on both of their faces when they meet.

She isn't just "delivering" the lightsabre. Rey is asking to be trained and giving Luke back his life. A lot has changed for her in the last few days and she understands the importance of this meeting.

Of course there is sadness - they've both been kicked around very badly and know things are going to get even more serious.

for me, it feels like they have some prior connection that will be explored in the next film.

No, the scene with Maz clearly establishes that Rey needs to abandon her past and that that "connection" she is looking for isn't with those that left her, but with the Jedi.

If they turned around in the next film and it is suddenly "hi, Dad, I'm home" then why would they have spent this whole film establishing Rey needing to let go of her past and family so that she could start her journey.

If Rey is a Skywalker, then the entire point of her character development in TFA is let go of her past and her family so she can embrace her past and her family.

 

[Mask&Cape]

Pablo Hidalgo, Lucasfilm Story Group has been explaining it this way:

Kylo Ren to Rey: "It is you."

• "Reading a lot made of Kylo saying, 'it is you,' in the novel, but he says the same in the movie. Which is a callback to the awakening line." (December 24, 2015) "[What is evident in the film?] 'there's been an awakening. Have you felt it?' / 'It is you.'" (December 24, 2015)
• "[Is Kylo's line 'It is you' canon? And is it recognition or him acknowledging that she represents the awakening?] Based on all that's in the film story, it's [Kylo Ren] recognizing [Rey as] what Snoke described as an awakening. Let's see what happens." (February 23, 2016)

This makes too much sense. It will not be accepted.

 

[Mask&Cape]

of course Pablo is going to explain the "It is You" line that way.

he's going to try to avoid spoiling the reveal ( whoever Rey's parents are ).

Or it really is just that simple.

 

[Mask&Cape]

Rey is definitely the granddaughter of Anakin Skywalker, he was really good at fixing things and as a child he naturally could pilot a pod race, he had Jedi reflexes. Rey has these same innate abilities.

By that logic I should be a great carpenter. I'm not.

 

[CGHulk]

By that logic I should be a great carpenter. I'm not.

Well in my family my grandfather was a great artist and my father is, and I am.

 

[X Knight]

well, Mask&Cape, we will just have to agree to disagree on this subject.

we will find out the truth in time, whatever that may be.