Who dies?

Discussion in 'Avengers: Age of Ultron' started by Khonshu, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. TalismanRing

    TalismanRing Cyclone Cookie Tosser

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    When did Joss said death was a main theme of them? He said it was darker but I haven't read anything about death let alone major character death. Stakes can be major without main characters dying. The stakes for heroes should be about saving the world - not just saving it because someone they know died so now it's important. That doesn't sound very heroic. That's why I always thought the Coulson bit in The Avengers was completely unnecessary.

    Comparisons have been made to it being darker like Empire Strikes Back. No one dies in ETS - not even the robots. Solo get frozen but he isn't any more dead at the end than Steve is at the end of Captain America.

    Besides if as rumored they're all to a certain degree responsible for Ultron being created the stakes are already personal as is the guilt.
     
    #351
  2. TheVision

    TheVision Sharp Dressed Man

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Messages:
    6,690
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Avengers are already kind of a shaky organization. So making their problems personal is what creates the drama and causes conflict. Otherwise everyones bumping fists and being happy together. Joss has said several times hes going to be using a scalpel on them, twisting the knife to see what makes them heroes. This one wont be as easy as them getting along to take on Loki, the problems will probably be coming from every direction.

    The Death quote could be a reference to Thanos' love of Lady Death. Or real death in the movie, or both, who knows.
     
    #352
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
  3. MauriSSio

    MauriSSio Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2014
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree. They already saved the planet once and came out intact and unscathed. That can't happen again. If Ultron really is a formidable foe he will take out at least one of them, otherwise it's just the same routine.
     
    #353
  4. TalismanRing

    TalismanRing Cyclone Cookie Tosser

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't see how it's the same routine. James Bond has lived through 20 plus films even with a couple of faked deaths tossed in. It took them until Bond 24 to kill off an M.

    X-Men just did a film
    where they retconned all the deaths from previous films and their own and everyone ends up happy and alive and
    yet people think it has big emotional stakes.

    The emotional stakes are their GUILT for being participants in creating a death machine. If they can only feel heightened emotions when one of their own dies as opposed to the general population then they're not only not heroes they're sociopaths. Needing the death of a main character to ratchet up the stakes just denotes a lack of creativity and a reliance on easy emotional manipulation.
     
    #354
  5. TheVision

    TheVision Sharp Dressed Man

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Messages:
    6,690
    Likes Received:
    0
    I expect people to die around the Avengers and its possible Joss could kill one of em off but Im not going to be upset or feel betrayed if he doesnt. Theres ways to cause real pain for these characters without one of them dying. Guilt, hurting innocent people, tapping into their flaws as people/heroes i.e. psychological torture. Killing one of em off and getting revenge would be another Phil Coulson type deal. Joss did that "Lets do it for Phil!" setup already in A1.
     
    #355
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
  6. MauriSSio

    MauriSSio Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2014
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    0
    The death of one of the avengers isn't just needed to motivate the avengers, but to really show the power of Ultron.

    Otherwise he'll just be one of the typical James Bond type villains that just get steamrolled without doing any heavy damage to major characters. Whedon should show us Ultron is not the typical villain.
     
    #356
  7. MauriSSio

    MauriSSio Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2014
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    0
    Killing random innocent people and not a real avenger would make aou just like A1.
     
    #357
  8. TalismanRing

    TalismanRing Cyclone Cookie Tosser

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    How big a main character? One of the big three or big four? Natasha or Hawkeye? One of the new twins? A sidekick? A girlfriend? There are problems with any of those choices - either by killing off the golden goose, throwing away untapped potential or slashing at well needed diversity.

    Where does it end? Do they have to kill three main Avengers to show Thanos is a greater threat and villain than Ultron? Or they could do like the comic and kill them all and then bring them all back. Which pretty much defeats the purpose except shock value.

    Continuously raising the stakes by knocking off main characters in the end just devolves into a slasher flick. If a writer or director can't come up with a better basis for drama or emotion then they're probably a hack. This is a continuing series who's decades old characters are it's greatest assets. Why throw those assets away?
     
    #358
  9. MauriSSio

    MauriSSio Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2014
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're not paying attention or reading the posts. It's not just about drama and emotion. Whedon has to prove Ultron is not the typical villain that kills random people but never a hero. Actually most slasher flicks have the killer kill everybody butthe heroes. Whedon has half a dozen to choose from. Maybe more. Will he create the typical film? Or will he have Ultron kill a hero?
     
    #359
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
  10. TalismanRing

    TalismanRing Cyclone Cookie Tosser

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Messages:
    5,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am paying attention. I am disagreeing.

    Slasher flicks kill off a bunch of D list actors and actress who play non entities until one C list actor/actress is left who might continue on to the next film if they're lucky enough to make enough $ for a sequel. No one would even much care if they killed off the "hero" except maybe the actor and his or her agent.

    The main four MCU heroes are valuable assets and property. They sell individual movies, they sell comics, they sell T-Shirts, mugs, dolls and DVDs. And combined together they and their importance make up the popularity of The Avengers. No way would Disney or Marvel OK Whedon killing off one of the main assets they paid billions for.

    And if they did it would be a temporary death that we've already seen before so what would be the point?

    We already know Cap and Thor are getting sequels and RDJ is the MCUs main asset who they'd love to make another Iron Man and is signed already for Avengers 3. So that leaves the Hulk who they finally got right with the Ruffulo casting.

    So we're back to killing off Hawkeye, Natasha, Wanda or Pietro. Aside from the fact they're not killing off one of their women when the Avengers is so male heavy - Whedon is not killing off his and fan favorite Black Widow especially not when Feige is considering giving her her own movie. I doubt he introduced SW and QS just to kill them off and they're strangers so even if they did die then what exactly is the big ramification? Maybe Hawkeye - he was underused - finally gets a sizable role and then is killed off. I guess it would give Scarlett some scenery to chew but Ulton taking down a very talented archer is not exactly proving how all powerful and hard to kill he is.

    So then we're down to killing a supporting player - Rhodey, Fury, Maria Hill, Pepper, Jane. Fury already "died" in WS. As far as we know Pepper and Jane are not in the movie - but they to are easy to kill vulnerable humans. Neither is Falcon who is already said to be in CA3 anyway. So that leaves Rhodey and Hill. Hill would be Coulson re-do but less impactful. And now we're down to Rhodey. The one minority super-hero in the movie - albeit as a sidekick. Oh yeah, that wouldn't be a cliche at all.

    But say it's done. Poor Rhodey is dead. And in the next film they'll have to up the death rate because Thanos so kicks Ultron's ass as a villain.
     
    #360
  11. HUMANIMAL

    HUMANIMAL ...

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    4,309
    Likes Received:
    0
    i think hawkeye has to go...maybe the vision also dies while taking ultron out(like in the matrix if you will)
     
    #361
  12. TheVision

    TheVision Sharp Dressed Man

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Messages:
    6,690
    Likes Received:
    0
    I really dont think theyll introduce a new character then kill them off in the same film.

    ULTRON may or may not want to kill the heroes straight up. He may want to psychologically mess with them by killing other people and forcing The Avengers to fight each other. I dont think itll be so black n white like it is in the comics. Joss' Ultron will be more like a James Spader character like Red Reddington ie complex, eccentric
     
    #362
    Last edited: May 28, 2014
  13. MauriSSio

    MauriSSio Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2014
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hawkeye sucks. He should go.

    Vision can die and be rebuilt.

    Quicksilver character is lame, maybe they'll kill him.
     
    #363
  14. TheVision

    TheVision Sharp Dressed Man

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Messages:
    6,690
    Likes Received:
    0
    MauriSSo: Take a time out or something. Jeez louise.
     
    #364
  15. Broseph44

    Broseph44 Witness Me

    Joined:
    May 26, 2012
    Messages:
    18,865
    Likes Received:
    37
    What well thought out reasons for why these characters should die, you sound like a little kid. :whatever:
     
    #365
  16. MauriSSio

    MauriSSio Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2014
    Messages:
    148
    Likes Received:
    0
    Would you prefer a long winded post? I can do that.
     
    #366
  17. sabrecmc

    sabrecmc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    That would suck for Renner if he finally gets a meaty part with Hawkeye and then Joss kills him off. Not that I put it past Joss. I saw Serenity...

    I still vote Pepper, if I can't have Darcy die horribly. Pepper just makes the most narrative sense to me. I don't hate Pepper or anything, but can see that from a story point of view.
     
    #367
  18. TheVision

    TheVision Sharp Dressed Man

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Messages:
    6,690
    Likes Received:
    0
    I hope whoever it is, they get it really nasty. Not a stab through the chest but some gnarly Ultron gangsta s***

    TA-DOW!
     
    #368
  19. ClarkLuther55

    ClarkLuther55 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,331
    Likes Received:
    0
    The ONLY Avenger I wouldn't have a problem with them killing is Hawkeye, and that's only if he proves himself first with a substantial role in this movie leading up to a heroic sacrifice.

    I think a story could be told about the overlooked member of the team. The guy with no powers and the silly weapon. Someone who is implied to have as much guilt as Natasha does. Whose relationship with her is the closest thing he has to friendship or romance, even though it probably falls short of that since both of them are emotionally closed off loners.

    He's the guy with nothing, who can finally come into his own and find friends and self-worth with the Avengers. And then he gives it all up to save the world.

    I really like this version of Clint, which I see as what the classic Clint Barton might've become if he wasn't reformed and taken in by the Avengers as a young man. He's been worn down by a lifetime of loneliness and soul-crushing assassination work. So I'd actually enjoy seeing a heroic sacrifice story play out with him.

    And even that has difficulties, because I doubt most members of the general audience see nearly as much in the movie version of Hawkeye. Lots of people just plain don't care about him, and AoU would have its work cut out trying to make him into a big deal. The lead up to his sacrifice would take time away from the bigger stars, and his death runs the risk of not making much of an impact regardless of how cool the film tries to make him out to be.

    So IMO, they could do Clint if they can make it work. Anyone else? Hell no. It's nonsense to think that they'll kill any big superhero for real, and I'd like to think that we can move beyond the fridging female supporting characters for the sake of "drama."
     
    #369
  20. ClarkLuther55

    ClarkLuther55 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,331
    Likes Received:
    0
    Kill Pepper and you ruin MCU's Tony Stark forever. Tony is outwardly fun and jokey, which is why audiences love him. Inside he can be a mess, but Pepper is the one who holds him together.

    We do not need a super angsty, far more traumatized Stark. That's what he'll be in any future Avengers or Iron man films if this happens.

    No way in hell Marvel will ever throw it all away like that.
     
    #370
  21. TheVision

    TheVision Sharp Dressed Man

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Messages:
    6,690
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pepper almost died in IM3, so wouldnt it be strange if they really killed her in AOU?

    I think Joss knows what buttons to press with these characters, hes not going to cliche it up at this point.
     
    #371
  22. BAMF!

    BAMF! heroic villain

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2014
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    well joss did say that the empire strikes back was one of his inspirations for age of ultron. maybe he'll have an avenger with their fate in the balance at the end of the film like han in empire strikes back as opposed to actually killing someone
     
    #372
  23. 3dman27

    3dman27 super-hero wannabe

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2002
    Messages:
    40,547
    Likes Received:
    0
    makes sense to me

    :srg
     
    #373
  24. HUMANIMAL

    HUMANIMAL ...

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    4,309
    Likes Received:
    0
    cap gets frozen again? :wow:



    :woot:
     
    #374
  25. TheVision

    TheVision Sharp Dressed Man

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Messages:
    6,690
    Likes Received:
    0
    *rubs hands* Cant wait to see what crazy ol Ultron has in store for The Avengers. I know hes gonna do some mean stuff to them. That will just make their glory so much more sweeter later on

    [​IMG]
     
    #375
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2014

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"