Who is the hero?

[StorminNorman]

Since the news I doubt will ever flow as freely as it did with The Dark Knight (which even now that well is less than empty) I felt it would be interesting to have a thread devoted into the actual ethics of The Watchmen - instead of the various discussion that sporadically popped up in various other threads.

Sure - this doesn't really belong in the Spoilers page, but its not like a mod is ever in here ninja.

So - was Ozymandias a villain of Lex Lutherian proportions? Or the worlds greatest humanitarian?

If he wasn't the hero of the story - who was?

Was there one?

I am interested to see Captain Carnage's take on the matter - though I probably have read it before.

 

[Bindvad]

Was there one?

I dont actually think there were a hero in the story...

Niteowl = Only helps a deranged lunatic get out of prison
Rorschach = Sees only his side of the case and refuses to go for the greater good
Silk Spectre = see Niteowl
Doc Manhatten = Rejects humans and doesn't do anything to stop or aid Ozymandias
Ozymandias = Temporarily getting world peace but kills millions to do it
Comedian = Knows of Ozymandias plan but doesn't do anything about it and gets killed at the beginning

 

[brobdingnag]

Since the news I doubt will ever flow as freely as it did with The Dark Knight (which even now that well is less than empty) I felt it would be interesting to have a thread devoted into the actual ethics of The Watchmen - instead of the various discussion that sporadically popped up in various other threads.

Sure - this doesn't really belong in the Spoilers page, but its not like a mod is ever in here ninja.

So - was Ozymandias a villain of Lex Lutherian proportions? Or the worlds greatest humanitarian?

If he wasn't the hero of the story - who was?

Was there one?

I am interested to see Captain Carnage's take on the matter - though I probably have read it before.

Everything depends on how you define Hero. There is usually an element of self-sacrifice involved in heroism. By that standard Rorschach could be considered heroic. He clearly has turned over his whole life to doing what he considers to be right. You could say that Niteowl and Silk Spectre saving people from the fire in the apartment building is heroic. They risked their safety and freedom to save a collection of average people. The fact that they also get sexual gratification from it doesn't diminish the act. We all get satisfaction when we do something we think is "good." But then, that's kind of the whole point of the story in the first place is to point out that there really are no heroes. Trying to point out a hero in Watchmen is like saying that a specific religion is the one true faith.

 

[Acid Snowman]

I think Dave Gibbons said in an interview that one theme of Watchmen was the concept of a hero, e.g Ozymandias is a Nietzschen Ubermensch, Rorschach is the epitome of persistense and the Comedian is a warped patriot, but alot of these characters just hide under the shell of 'heroism', to conceal their outlooks and motives.
We think Veidt's scheme is just misguided (or not-depending on your viewpoint) plot to save humanity, where it could just be an ego-stretch for a megalomaniac who fancies himself better than Alexander the Great. Rorschach considers his mask his face, and his face his mask, but what he fails to realise is that he created his Rorschach persona as a twisted means of escaping wrongs done to him, not realising he was Walter Kovacs all along until it was too late. The Comedian seems a zealous patriot from what we see him doing for his country, but is nothing more than a crazy madman in the flashbacks.
My favourite character, and the one I most consider a hero, is Nite-Owl, because of various reasons I'm too tired to explain.

 

[Roughneck]

It really depends on your definition of Hero, but the way I've always seen it is that none of them are heroes at all.....a couple of them are downright bastards

 

[Porygon]

There is no 'hero', a large part of Watchmen is the emphasis on shades of grey, rather than a black and white 'hero and villain' scenario.

 

[Johnichi Chiba]

In a sense, all the main characters in the book are heroes and in another sense none of them are. It just depends on the POV. Sort of like the "heroes" we look up to in real life.

 

[Killing Joke926]

Watchmen never really had a hero or a villian, but if anyone that was the closest to the idea is IMO would be Rorshach because even though he only goes by his side of the story, he did whatever he could to be a Patriot without a terrorist tactic.

 

[Comic Book Boy]

Rorschach [blackout]died a heroic death[/blackout]. But as others have said, there is no hero or villian. Even Moloch is pretty reasonable. Rorschach comes closest when he is the one that gets everyone going on the murder, he is the one that does the legwork, he is the one who gets punished, and he is the one who gets [blackout]the last laugh with the journal[/blackout].

 

[Roughneck]

And he is the one that gets [blackout]vaporized[/blackout]

 

[Killing Joke926]

And he is the one that gets [blackout]vaporized[/blackout]

Yeah........damn you [BLACKOUT]Manhattan! [/BLACKOUT]

 

[L0ngsh0t]

I look at night owl sally jupiter and Rorshach as the hero's

Rorshach definately though....he maybe be a single minded lunatic but he is in the end right...Ozymandias committed murder, genocide at that

however this question is one of the aspects of the book i love

pretty much every character is weak but strong

 

[StorminNorman]

It really depends on your definition of Hero, but the way I've always seen it is that none of them are heroes at all.....a couple of them are downright bastards

Exactly. I don't want politically correct answers explaining how everyone can be defined/not defined as a hero.

I want to know who you personally consider to be the hero - if you feel there was one.

Personally, to me, Ozymandias is the hero of the story.

 

[CaptainGenerica]

Ozymandias committed murder, genocide at that

Murder, yeah. Genocide? That's pushing it. Unless you consider "New Yorker" to be a race.

 

[StorminNorman]

Ozymandias committed murder, genocide at that

So did Truman.

 

[sad lieutenant]

So did Truman.

Cue forehead-slapping. Norman, you know I agree with you, but you best quit this noise, less that one dude totally flip out again.

Wait, actually... that's fine for this thread. Go nuts!

And Veidt IS the "hero", if there is one in this film. But there's not.

 

[StorminNorman]

Cue forehead-slapping. Norman, you know I agree with you, but you best quit this noise, less that one dude totally flip out again.

Wait, actually... that's fine for this thread. Go nuts!

And Veidt IS the "hero", if there is one in this film. But there's not.

I was hoping for a total flip out. I need more excitement in my life

Honestly I think Alan Moore nailed the major problem with humanity on the head. Humanity simply needs conflict in our lives - and since currently the only conflict we can wage is against each other, on our planet - the results mean eventual doom for our race. The only way humanity will solve its problems is by giving us a true competitor to destroy.

In this case a giant squid poke'mon of epic proportions.

 

[Sandman138]

Watchmen has no heroes or villains, just points of view. I used to hate him, but rereading the book, I find myself sympathizing with Blake's nihilist existentialism. I like Manhattan's final action in a Nietzsche "God is dead" sort of way, which I guess makes Veidt a sort of Übermensch hero. Rorschach's jingoism, sexual neurosis, and misogyny kind of overshadow his objectivisim... but then again, I think the same thing about Rand, so, yeah.

 

[L0ngsh0t]

Exactly. I don't want politically correct answers explaining how everyone can be defined/not defined as a hero.

I want to know who you personally consider to be the hero - if you feel there was one.

Personally, to me, Ozymandias is the hero of the story.

I think someone who would sacrifice not himself for the greater good of humanity, i.e. he thinks he is better than everyone else, therefore the loss of others who have done nothing wrong, like the chap at the magazine stand, is totally worth it if Ozy can live in a perfect world for him. Out of all of them, he is probably my last choice for hero. I see the move he makes as kind of a b.s. move, and one the villain in many action movies makes (when he is cornered makes his own men take the bullet so he can get away). If he where a real hero, and the smartest man alive he would find away to make it work without killing millions of people who have done nothing deservent of losing their life over (nothing that Ozymandais hasn't done at least)

I think Nite Owl has the most...say....human reaction thus we generally see the plot unfold through his eyes, while I think Rorshach made the right move, I think Nite Owl made the most human move, he didn't know what was right or wrong, and maybe got pressured (by the smartest man alive, and a god I think most humans would agree with those two in that situation) into making the decision he did but he still made it.

 

[StorminNorman]

I think someone who would sacrifice not himself for the greater good of humanity, i.e. he thinks he is better than everyone else, therefore the loss of others who have done nothing wrong, like the chap at the magazine stand, is totally worth it if Ozy can live in a perfect world for him. Out of all of them, he is probably my last choice for hero. I see the move he makes as kind of a b.s. move, and one the villain in many action movies makes (when he is cornered makes his own men take the bullet so he can get away). If he where a real hero, and the smartest man alive he would find away to make it work without killing millions of people who have done nothing deservent of losing their life over (nothing that Ozymandais hasn't done at least)

I think Nite Owl has the most...say....human reaction thus we generally see the plot unfold through his eyes, while I think Rorshach made the right move, I think Nite Owl made the most human move, he didn't know what was right or wrong, and maybe got pressured (by the smartest man alive, and a god I think most humans would agree with those two in that situation) into making the decision he did but he still made it.

Ozymandias does sacrifice himself for his plan - he sacrifices his nights of sleep. He sacrifices his morals, his ethics and peace of mind, all for the human race to survive, to live together in harmony.

If Nite Owl had his way, if Rorschach had his way, the human race would of been destroyed. Billions of people dead. The world practically uninhabitable. Nuclear War would of ravaged the planet, Ozymandias prevented it.

 

[L0ngsh0t]

Ozymandias does sacrifice himself for his plan - he sacrifices his nights of sleep. He sacrifices his morals, his ethics and peace of mind, all for the human race to survive, to live together in harmony.

If Nite Owl had his way, if Rorschach had his way, the human race would of been destroyed. Billions of people dead. The world practically uninhabitable. Nuclear War would of ravaged the planet, Ozymandias prevented it.

I expected more out of you Normin

You just compared sacrificing life, and millions of lives at that to sacrificing sleepless nights....seriously, I have had sleepless nights, I have bent my morals at times, and if that is the equivalent of sacrificing life than sign me up for sacrificing sleepless nights to save humanity

it takes a hero and a man to sacrifice his life for the good of others, it takes a ***** to sacrifice others lives for the good of himself

If Nite Owl and Rorshach have their ways, we would be engulfed in war etc..Do you not think that 100 years after what Ozy does wars won't rise again? as long as we are different, as long as we exist there will be conflict with each other, its human reaction to argue, and bring conflict, and compete. War will never cease, Ozymandias just sacrificed 2 million lives for the sake of the 40 years he has left to live

 

[brobdingnag]

Personally, to me, Ozymandias is the hero of the story.

In that case people are going to fall mostly into two main camps. Most will say that either Rorschach or Ozymandias were the main hero. You like Ozymandias because you're a lackwitted bleeding heart collectivist and I like Rorschach because I'm a right wing reactionary objectivist .

 

[waylayer]

Ozy isn't a hero in my opinion for a couple reasons:

1) He has an ego-driven God complex
2) He not only wants to save the world, but also reshape it to his own utopian image

Saving humanity for the sake of it is a noble thing, but dressing up like an Egyptian pharaoh while doing it is just a sign of being a pretentious *****e. Seriously Adrian, get over yourself. Your toy line's weak, your fragrance is probably worse than Derek Jeter's, and Kerri Strug can do a better salto.

Plus, there's no dead-on guarantee that nuclear war would have even happened in the comic's world anyway (even though it was getting closer). In our reality, we've been closer to nuclear war with the Ruskies (Cuban missile crisis, Vietnam), and cooler heads prevailed in those instances. Did Ozymandias really consider all the options for achieving peace, or did he just want to do something so bombastic as to eternally leave his stamp on the world, even just so he could cherish his own accomplishment?

note: This opinion comes from someone who actually identifies more with Adrian than any of the other "heroes." We both think we know better than the general populous does, we both do gymnastics (ok I do yoga - close enough), and we've both kicked a woman in the bread-basket.

 

[Spidey-Sean]

Rorschach [blackout]died a heroic death[/blackout]. But as others have said, there is no hero or villian. Even Moloch is pretty reasonable. Rorschach comes closest when he is the one that gets everyone going on the murder, he is the one that does the legwork, he is the one who gets punished, and he is the one who gets [blackout]the last laugh with the journal[/blackout].

Yeah, but wasn't his handwriting near impossible to make out? I thought the police report from earlier in the book pointed this out. And considering Seymour (the kid) likely wouldn't be able to read it right off the bat, he may have chosen another crackpot pile article. (I doubt it, but am I imagining that police report note that the couldn't make out the handwriting? I can't remember exactly).

 

[StorminNorman]

I expected more out of you Normin

I am a realist. Ozymandias is too.

You just compared sacrificing life, and millions of lives at that to sacrificing sleepless nights....seriously, I have had sleepless nights, I have bent my morals at times, and if that is the equivalent of sacrificing life than sign me up for sacrificing sleepless nights to save humanity

No I am not. I am simply saying that Ozymandias also sacrificed. Not to the extent of those that died, not the extent of Rorschach - but he did sacrifice a bit of himself.

My larger point is that those few million HAD to be sacrificed to save the planet. Surely any rational man would agree that the lives of the many are greater than that of a few. It doesn't require a great deal of brain power - just the basic concept of math.

it takes a hero and a man to sacrifice his life for the good of others, it takes a ***** to sacrifice others lives for the good of himself

Does Ozymandias's life improve from his plan being executed? Outside of the fact he will not die from nuclear war (though it could be argued that his Antartic palace already provided him sanctuary from that) his life is now going to be reliving the horrors of millions of deaths until his dying days. He finds no peace. He sacrifices his peace for the benefit of the world.

If Nite Owl and Rorshach have their ways, we would be engulfed in war etc..Do you not think that 100 years after what Ozy does wars won't rise again? as long as we are different, as long as we exist there will be conflict with each other, its human reaction to argue, and bring conflict, and compete. War will never cease, Ozymandias just sacrificed 2 million lives for the sake of the 40 years he has left to live

But see, we only see ourselves as different from each other because we have no other competition for dominance. The people in Ozymandias world now have a fear, a common enemy, to unite the human race. They are now forced to acknowledge the fact that there is a race of deadly creatures in another dimension that has the ower to cross over and destroy their way of life. That is the motivation it will take to unite the world.