Who's side are you on?

[Loki882]

It's quite interesting that the complaints of characters/actors being "shoehorned" in ONLY comes up when we're dealing with female or minority characters. I never seem to hear the same argument made about white characters/performers being in the films. As for the whole "cast the person who fits the part" that is such a subjective claim as to be meaningless. What does "fitting the part" actually mean and why does it seemingly come up ONLY when were discussing the possibility of minority/female characters? Again, it never seems to come up when were talking about white ones, interesting. Sorry, but there's no reason why Marvel can't introduce more minority/female superheroes, there simply isn't and those justifications sound a lot more like excuses to try and explain away inaction.

 

[DrCosmic]

Out of the six Avengers six of them are white. That's not "pretty well". That's "antebellum south".

I, for one, absolutely love the actors we have in all four "big" roles right now and think they are perfect for their given roles, but how many African-Americans do you think they auditioned for the role of, well, Captain America? How many folks who would be considered to have a middle easterner appearance do you think had even the smallest chance of landing the lead role in Thor? I would suggest that there is probably an Asian actor with the talent and charisma to have taken on the role of Stark but I don't even have to go that far because Banner has been played by three different actors in various quality roles that almost certainly could have been filled by others, and yet all three have been white.

The problem with saying that the best person should be chosen for any given role is that Hollywood almost always casts white, and then THAT gets tossed out as a defense. "Oh, but they were just casting the best possible actor!" The fact is that generations of prejudice have given rise to an unfair system so that even when an honest attempt to just cast the most talented actor is made white actors already have a step up over any minority actor in the same role. It's a cultural bias that is so deeply embedded that they have an undo amount of privileges inherent in the system.

Which is exactly why it's so vital for people to take notice of things like this and to demand change. Because what we have now is base on these little subconscious biases that, in some ways, are harder to deal with that all out racism. At this point if there was someone standing in a film studio saying "we're only going to cast white males for leads - those other people should be glad we're letting them be sidekicks in so many of these movies nowadays!" we could just call that person out and publicly shame them because we all know that is messed up. But no one is saying that. Instead it's predicated on things like "star power" and "biggest comic book name". Well, most of the stars are white males and most of the biggest superheroes are white males because most of our culture is based on old, outdated ideas. The only way to get change is to invite it.

Plus, Black Panther looks so awesome. And he can climb walls! He's like Spider-man if Spider-man were a cat! And king of his own country! So nothing like Spider-man, that's fair.

Sidenote-That-Is-Actually-On-Topic: I had the strangest crush on Quicksilver when I was a kid (I also have this thing about sibling relationships in media - maybe it's just that I'm an older sister myself). I am still in shock that he's in two live action movies. Has he even been in non-live action films? My only regret is that we'll never see Stark and him get into a pissing match over whose father failed them more. Le sigh. But, yeah, I haven't really seen an X-film since X3, and I'm still cool with them sharing.

This is what truth looks like.

As much as most americans seem to want to believe, everyone isn't racist and picking on minorities. They are casting who's best. If anything it's actually the opposite, studios are going out of their way to cast minorities over equally/more qualified white people because of the cries of the ignorant public for "diversity".

This is what ignorance looks like.
"When white people are cast, they're casting the best."
"When minorities are cast, there's someone white as good or better."
"Anyone who disagrees with my baseless judgments is ignorant."

My Spiel on Diversity

Diversity, of all things, is important for storytelling. If you're telling a story about the modern world, your story should reflect the modern world, not the 1960s many of these characters were created in. If your characters are a reflection of your audience, then they should look like it. This includes diversity in personality, diversity in backgrounds, diversity in clothing styles, diversity in dialects, diversity in skillsets, diversity in motivations, and yes, diversity in gender and race as well a hundred other things.

If you are echewing diversity in regards to the story, ie the story is set in the 1960s, or rural England, maybe not the best time for a multi-racial cast, or great diversity in clothing. But if your story is set in the modern day, in America... why on Earth would you dress everyone the same way? Or give them all the same manner of speaking? Or make them all the same race!? Adapting something set in a previous time period doesn't make such poor artistic decisions make sense.

Skip politics. Being a responsible or skilled artist means using the canvas before you, means knowing your audience, and in modern day Western metropolitan area, that means black, asian, latino, indian and others are a major part of the story. Women too, but perhaps its best not to get me started there.

 

[Micromind]

Quicksilver was featured in X-Men Origins: Wolverine before Avengers decided to use him, so he was already a part of X-Men movies.

 

[TheJediBrah]

"When white people are cast, they're casting the best."

No one said that. When you need to make things up to back up your point you know you're struggling.

"When minorities are cast, there's someone white as good or better."

As above.

"Anyone who disagrees with my baseless judgments is ignorant."

The irony is overwhelming. This is exactly what you've stated emphatically with this post.

Diversity, of all things, is important for storytelling. If you're telling a story about the modern world, your story should reflect the modern world, not the 1960s many of these characters were created in. If your characters are a reflection of your audience, then they should look like it. This includes diversity in personality, diversity in backgrounds, diversity in clothing styles, diversity in dialects, diversity in skillsets, diversity in motivations, and yes, diversity in gender and race as well a hundred other things.

So to reflect the modern world, we should enforce diversity whereby minorities are over represented? The word "minority" means minority, funnily enough. Having a minority of the roles/actors as minorities would be representative.

Not to mention the fact that minorities are even more so a minority in Hollywood. Whites are over represented in that profession. Going out of your way to cast the minorities is just plain racist, and grossly unprofessional.

Don't get me wrong, they will and do do it. And it's pretty much perfect the way it is. I don't know what movies you people go and see but everything I see has diversity shoved down the audiences throats just for the sake of it, it seems at times.

The reason these conspiracy theories are always so funny is when people assume they know better. They all assume they know better than the professionals. "Studios are doing it wrong, I know better, there should be more diversity". Lol. And it's such an interesting and inciting viewpoint that the public will run with it, especially in America where "racism" is always seen where it doesn't exist.

 

[gildedmuse]

VVV
trying to force diversity for the sake of diversity is going full ******. Most of the avengers are white characters. You wouldn't cast a black Thor anymore than you'd cast a white Shaft in a movie.

As much as most americans seem to want to believe, everyone isn't racist and picking on minorities. They are casting who's best. If anything it's actually the opposite, studios are going out of their way to cast minorities over equally/more qualified white people because of the cries of the ignorant public for "diversity".

See, you just claimed that the roles were going to white actors because they LOOKED the part, but then turning around and saying that they are simply casting the best actors. Doesn't that kind of strike you as off? I mean, either they are truly hiring the best actor which would mean blind casting calls in an attempt to find truly the most skilled individual OR they are trying to find actors who fit certain physical descriptions (like being white) and then hiring from that narrowed field. Which doesn't include all the best people, only the best white guys.

So studios are going out of their way to cast white men over equally/more qualified actors all because of their representation in a comic book the vast majority of general audiences will not have read.

Just to be clear, I adore the current MCU cast. Every single one of them, from RDJ all the way down to the chick who plays Darcy. And I'm not saying that studios shouldn't take an actor's resemblance to their comic book counterpart into account. However, the whole idea that the whole process is somehow bias free is ridicules.

Of course, a lot of that bias has simply become part of the system itself making it difficult to detect. For instance, there aren't as many roles for African-Americans in film/tv so a smaller number (compared to white actors) come out to Hollyood. Then when someone does hold an open casting call for some minor parts, the majority of those who audition will be white simply because there aren't as many black actors out there which in turn makes it seem as if there are less roles for them which means.... And then the problem keeps feeding itself until it's so engrained in the way we do things that no one even notices.

Not to mention the fact that minorities are even more so a minority in Hollywood. Whites are over represented in that profession. Going out of your way to cast the minorities is just plain racist, and grossly unprofessional.

But, see, one of the reasons that minorities are underrepresented in Hollywood is due to the whole "unconscious society bias" thing. Saying that because the current racial make up of Hollywood actors tends to be predominately white that "going out of your way" to create diverse casts is racists is... Well, it's the exact opposite. Noting that something like Hollywood's stars do not properly reflect American diversity and then making a conscious effort to improve on that point is how racism is undercut.

I mean, imagine if DC and Marvel were somehow able to produce 7 movies a year based on their comic properties from 2015-2020. Due to when comics were originally becoming popular and when the vast number of "main" characters were created, this could easily lead to a total of 35 films without a single minority leading role. And, again, I'm not talking about someone purposefully avoiding them. They simply have so many more white main characters that they could easily fill a 37 movie roster without giving it a single thought.

So that's why people are constantly speaking up on the subject- so that these things are given actual thought. And how that ever bad, to question the media and culture around you and become actively engaged as oppose to passive acceptance? Critical thought is always valued, right?

 

[DrCosmic]

No one said that. When you need to make things up to back up your point you know you're struggling.

As above.

The irony is overwhelming. This is exactly what you've stated emphatically with this post.

I'm sure you don't want to acknowledge your own viewpoint when it's phrased like that. I wouldn't either, but I can split the difference if you like.

"They are casting who's best." When it's mostly white guys
"studios are going out of their way to cast minorities over equally/more qualified white people"
"the ignorant public" wants ""Diversity""

That's you bro. I described you as ignorant because you reject information, not because I disagree with you.

So to reflect the modern world, we should enforce diversity whereby minorities are over represented? The word "minority" means minority, funnily enough. Having a minority of the roles/actors as minorities would be representative.

Not to mention the fact that minorities are even more so a minority in Hollywood. Whites are over represented in that profession. Going out of your way to cast the minorities is just plain racist, and grossly unprofessional.

Don't get me wrong, they will and do do it. And it's pretty much perfect the way it is. I don't know what movies you people go and see but everything I see has diversity shoved down the audiences throats just for the sake of it, it seems at times.

The reason these conspiracy theories are always so funny is when people assume they know better. They all assume they know better than the professionals. "Studios are doing it wrong, I know better, there should be more diversity". Lol. And it's such an interesting and inciting viewpoint that the public will run with it, especially in America where "racism" is always seen where it doesn't exist.

Wow... so when I talked about the artistry in diversity... your response was statistics? Should we also get stastically accurate personality types? And what does this have to do with enforcing or shoving it down anyone's throat?

What's really incredible about your point of view is that you have this whole "Going out of their way" scenario that is baseless, but if anyone comes to you with too much information, you call them a "conspiracy theorist," laugh off their viewpoint, and then call them ignorant or incited. You cling to a fallacy-saturated viewpoint and it makes you invincible to learning.

EDIT: The problem with your viewpoint is not that you don't believe in anti-minority racism, despite how well documented it is, the problem is that your counter to that is decrying anti-white racism, and you jump into this 'us vs them' fight just as you've shown here, you only hurt yourself. There is no 'them,' the "ignorant public" you're trying to combat is the guy next to you, going through what you're going through and the guy who started the "they're going out of their way to shove diversity down our throats" is laughing all the way to the bank. One side says the republicans are corrupt, one side says the democrats are corrupt, and the truth is that they're all corrupt, and anyone who is ignorant enough to pick sides in that war is just as foolish as someone who decides to pick sides in Fox vs Marvel Studios.

Back on topic for the win.

 

[TheJediBrah]

See, you just claimed that the roles were going to white actors because they LOOKED the part, but then turning around and saying that they are simply casting the best actors. Doesn't that kind of strike you as off? I mean, either they are truly hiring the best actor which would mean blind casting calls in an attempt to find truly the most skilled individual OR they are trying to find actors who fit certain physical descriptions (like being white) and then hiring from that narrowed field. Which doesn't include all the best people, only the best white guys.

It doesn't strike me as off before. Casting isn't just about talent. Looks play a huge part, especially in iconic roles. I wouldn't want them to try to cast a white actor as Shaft in a film any more than a black actor as Clark Kent.

If you don't like that then I'm not really sure what you can do about because it's not going to change.

Just to be clear, I adore the current MCU cast. Every single one of them, from RDJ all the way down to the chick who plays Darcy. And I'm not saying that studios shouldn't take an actor's resemblance to their comic book counterpart into account. However, the whole idea that the whole process is somehow bias free is ridicules.

I agree.

Of course, a lot of that bias has simply become part of the system itself making it difficult to detect. For instance, there aren't as many roles for African-Americans in film/tv so a smaller number (compared to white actors) come out to Hollyood. Then when someone does hold an open casting call for some minor parts, the majority of those who audition will be white simply because there aren't as many black actors out there which in turn makes it seem as if there are less roles for them which means.... And then the problem keeps feeding itself until it's so engrained in the way we do things that no one even notices.

I agree again. But the "problem" you mention is not really an issue with "diversity in films", it's an equal opportunities issue.

But, see, one of the reasons that minorities are underrepresented in Hollywood is due to the whole "unconscious society bias" thing. Saying that because the current racial make up of Hollywood actors tends to be predominately white that "going out of your way" to create diverse casts is racists is... Well, it's the exact opposite. Noting that something like Hollywood's stars do not properly reflect American diversity and then making a conscious effort to improve on that point is how racism is undercut.

Sorry but I think that's just completely false. If you are going out of your way to cast a certain race because they are a certain race and you are just going for diversity, that's the definition of racism IMO. What you're describing is Affirmative Action, which is essentially racism against one group to try and make up for past racism against the other group.

It's widely accepted in most of society though.

I mean, imagine if DC and Marvel were somehow able to produce 7 movies a year based on their comic properties from 2015-2020. Due to when comics were originally becoming popular and when the vast number of "main" characters were created, this could easily lead to a total of 35 films without a single minority leading role. And, again, I'm not talking about someone purposefully avoiding them. They simply have so many more white main characters that they could easily fill a 37 movie roster without giving it a single thought.

Take it up with the dudes that illustrated the comics decades ago.

So that's why people are constantly speaking up on the subject- so that these things are given actual thought. And how that ever bad, to question the media and culture around you and become actively engaged as oppose to passive acceptance? Critical thought is always valued, right?

Nah. Not when it's annoying.

I'm sure you don't want to acknowledge your own viewpoint when it's phrased like that. I wouldn't either, but I can split the difference if you like.

"They are casting who's best." When it's mostly white guys
"studios are going out of their way to cast minorities over equally/more qualified white people"
"the ignorant public" wants ""Diversity""

That's you bro. I described you as ignorant because you reject information, not because I disagree with you.

I reject incorrect information. Craft a sensible rebuttle and maybe I'll consider it.

Wow... so when I talked about the artistry in diversity... your response was statistics? Should we also get stastically accurate personality types? And what does this have to do with enforcing or shoving it down anyone's throat?

You are the one who brought up "it should be representative". That's where statistics came in, I was just responding to you.

What's really incredible about your point of view is that you have this whole "Going out of their way" scenario that is baseless, but if anyone comes to you with too much information, you call them a "conspiracy theorist," laugh off their viewpoint, and then call them ignorant or incited. You cling to a fallacy-saturated viewpoint and it makes you invincible to learning.

Funny, this describes you perfectly. Everything you've said is baseless.

What is my "viewpoint" anyway? I'm not anti or pro-minority. I'm not anti or pro-white. Your accusations are ridiculous, it's like you're trying to make an argument where there is none.

EDIT: The problem with your viewpoint is not that you don't believe in anti-minority racism, despite how well documented it is, the problem is that your counter to that is decrying anti-white racism, and you jump into this 'us vs them' fight just as you've shown here, you only hurt yourself. There is no 'them,' the "ignorant public" you're trying to combat is the guy next to you, going through what you're going through and the guy who started the "they're going out of their way to shove diversity down our throats" is laughing all the way to the bank. One side says the republicans are corrupt, one side says the democrats are corrupt, and the truth is that they're all corrupt, and anyone who is ignorant enough to pick sides in that war is just as foolish as someone who decides to pick sides in Fox vs Marvel Studios.

Of course I believe in anti-minority racism. But I'm perceptive enough to see how often people assume it's there when it's not, especially in America. It's laughable how often the "race card" is thrown out there in everyday situations.

Moral of the story is, complaining about a lack of diversity in these films is incredibly annoying, when the studios are doing as good a job as anyone could reasonably expect and there already is plenty of diversity.

Just answer me one question: What do you actually suggest anyway? What would your magical solution be?

Make more lead roles for minorities? Do this by picking and choosing only minority characters to make films about? Or retconning white characters into minorities?

 

[TheJediBrah]

anyway this thread has been side-tracked enough. If you want to respond please direct to PM, I might not check this thread again.

 

[Chance Jackson]

Why is it when people talk about diversity they only mention African American/black actors? (Like Feige did in an interview a few weeks ago.) If people really want diversity start clamoring for some Asian and Hispanic actors to be in these movies. Whites(obviously) and blacks are presented very well in all of these Marvel movies, everyone else, not so much.

I personally would like them to use the Asian version of Janet Pym from the Ultimate line(no domestic abuse though) can't think of any major Hispanic characters Marvel could use, Arana/Spider-Girl is tied up with the Spider-man IP at Sony right now. All hispanic/mestizo mutants are at Fox. The White Tiger could be used but they are planing a black panther movie so that might be weird

trying to force diversity for the sake of diversity is going full ******. Most of the avengers are white characters. You wouldn't cast a black Thor anymore than you'd cast a white Shaft in a movie.

If I could get a black Thor, Latino/Native American Captain America, Middle Eastern/South Asian Tony Stark, East/South East Asian Hawkeye(you get the idea) I'd gladly trade you Every Shaft, Luke Cage, blaxploitation and minority sidekick character even just 2 out of the 4 I mentioned would be a breath of fresh air!

I'll settle for and can be happy with some minority heroes being side kicks but lets not forget the modern age of CBMs was kicked off by Blade and Blade was the first successful film franchise with a Marvel I.P. and that would have never happened if Marvel had the rights back then especially with it's policies today.

If Marvel Studios had the rights Blade might have teamed up with an avenger, or a cameo on AoS or at best a net flix series but the way Feige is running things no Major Motion Picture which is why I hope Marvel Licenses out the I.P.s they would squander/backburner for 20+ years. New Line studios was up to the task in the late 90s that Marvel clearly isn't up to today

As much as most americans seem to want to believe, everyone isn't racist and picking on minorities. They are casting who's best. If anything it's actually the opposite, studios are going out of their way to cast minorities over equally/more qualified white people because of the cries of the ignorant public for "diversity".

it's not a matter of "picking on" as you dismissively put it, its a matter of privilege

 

[Hawkingbird]

I choose both god damn it!!!!