The Last Jedi Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

[Grootster]

If you mean the half in the bag guys , they did a TLJ review around the time film came out. It should be up on youtube .

They weren't very crazy about the film and didn't have a very flattering view of star wars fandom surrounding the film, from what I recall.

I've seen their half in the bag review, but the Plinkett reviews are a separate thing. Both TFA and Rogue One got a HITB and a Plinkett review.

 

[Agent Orange]

It's polarizing but it's popular enough that it won reader/fan votes for Best Movie, Best Director, Best Actress, Best Visual Effects and Best Costume Design at Empire Magazine's annual event for popular films.

https://www.express.co.uk/entertain...ards-2018-Best-Film-Best-Actress-Daisy-Ridley

Both the "love" and the "hate" sides of the debate in the fandom are dripping with hyperbole. Everybody needs to take a step back from the ledge. Y'all see me pop up on the "love" side of the debate on occasion and yeah, I've gotten a little heated too.

The fallout/response for this film has been unique to say the least. The only comparable(s) that I can think of are the responses to Star Trek Discovery (which I hate) and the new Doctor Who (this is especially absurd).

 

[Frodo]

I personally don't care about people loving or hating the film. If its how you feel its how you feel. Shout it from the roof tops for all I care. Discussing what you may or may not like with someone who disagree's with you are what forums are made for.

Its the demonization of someone who disagree's with you or the inability to except that someone disagree's with you that's been the problem in this debate.

Its the questioning of motivations and characterizing someone who disagree's which gets into paranoia, and i've seen that from fandom and geek pundits over this film.

Its seems that alot of people on both sides seem to take disagreement over taste personally, i.e. whether you liked it/didn't like it or why you did/didn't , which I don't get.

 

[breadhenge]

My problem with TLJ is that it went no where. Plot/character development was minimal at best. People that love the film praise it for the "new direction" that it takes, but the reality is that it does nothing new and that's what's so disappointing. Rian Johnson constantly tricks the audience into thinking that the story is going to do something new/different, only to revert back to the same story/plots we've seen countless times before in Star Wars. Lots of opportunities were presented but none were taken.

 

[Grootster]

My problem with TLJ is that it went no where. Plot/character development was minimal at best. People that love the film praise it for the "new direction" that it takes, but the reality is that it does nothing new and that's what's so disappointing. Rian Johnson constantly tricks the audience into thinking that the story is going to do something new/different, only to revert back to the same story/plots we've seen countless times before in Star Wars. Lots of opportunities were presented but none were taken.

This is hitting the nail right on the head. I really don't get why people think TLJ pushed the franchise in new directions. Actually ending the Jedi would have pushed the series in a new direction. Ending the movie with Rey and Kylo teaming up would have pushed the series in a new direction. If anything TLJ just hammers in the status quo even more by basically saying that the Jedi will always be around. The only thing "new" TLJ did was getting rid of classic things like the Wilhelm scream and "I've got a bad feeling about this", which are pretty minor and insignificant.

 

[Mjölnir]

This is hitting the nail right on the head. I really don't get why people think TLJ pushed the franchise in new directions. Actually ending the Jedi would have pushed the series in a new direction. Ending the movie with Rey and Kylo teaming up would have pushed the series in a new direction. If anything TLJ just hammers in the status quo even more by basically saying that the Jedi will always be around. The only thing "new" TLJ did was getting rid of classic things like the Wilhelm scream and "I've got a bad feeling about this", which are pretty minor and insignificant.

That line is "said" by BB-8 at the beginning of the film.

The Wilhelm scream is possibly edited into the sounds when Kylo Ren is attacking "Luke" with his lightsaber. There's something mixed in there that sounds just like that scream.

So it seems like kind of a thing where Rian keeps the old but didn't really want to so he only technically followed it. I do however fully agree that TLJ mainly just keeps the status quo and doesn't really do much new things with the franchise at all.

 

[henzINNIT]

Johnson got himself into a miraculous position where he is criticized strongly for both making changes and also for keeping the status quo. I think the problem with his approach is that damn near every subversion he pulls is underwhelming compared to the expected outcome. Some examples:

Rey meeting Luke: "Can't wait to see what he does!! ...oh, so, he chucked the lightsaber."

Snoke: "We finally see him, can't wait to know... oh he's dead."

Leia dying: "OMG so sudden and brutal, but it kind of works... oh, she's alive."

Leia not dying: "Damn she's gonna use the force and it's gonna be... oh, kind of lame."

Rey/Kylo team-up: "Well THIS is unexpected, this changes everyth- oh wait they're still enemies."

Luke's return: "He's here! He's finally here, can't wait to see what he does... oh he's a ghost."

Luke's a ghost: "He's a ghost. Well that means he's still alive oh no he's dead anyway."

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Johnson got himself into a miraculous position where he is criticized strongly for both making changes and also for keeping the status quo. I think the problem with his approach is that damn near every subversion he pulls is underwhelming compared to the expected outcome. Some examples:

Rey meeting Luke: "Can't wait to see what he does!! ...oh, so, he chucked the lightsaber."

Snoke: "We finally see him, can't wait to know... oh he's dead."

Leia dying: "OMG so sudden and brutal, but it kind of works... oh, she's alive."

Leia not dying: "Damn she's gonna use the force and it's gonna be... oh, kind of lame."

Rey/Kylo team-up: "Well THIS is unexpected, this changes everyth- oh wait they're still enemies."

Luke's return: "He's here! He's finally here, can't wait to see what he does... oh he's a ghost."

Luke's a ghost: "He's a ghost. Well that means he's still alive oh no he's dead anyway."

That's very true. Usually writers use subversion of expectations to lead into more interesting directions but every time Rian does it we just end up in less interesting situations. It's like his goal was to show that Star Wars shouldn't have to be exciting.

Compare that to the double turns of Lando, and the reveal of that Vader is actually Luke's father, and it becomes extraordinarily lame.

 

[Elayis]

Not sure if this has been brought up or not, but most of the things detractors of the film dislike (in particular Luke's role) are simply logical extensions of what Abrams did in TFA. So the choice was either dump all of what came before in VII or respect what Abrams did and make the best sequel possible out of the elements that were presented.

It was Abram's decision to make Luke a hermit and have Rey's overriding character trait be the mystery of her parentage. All Johnson did was take those plot threads and craft the most narratively satisfying story he could. It wouldn't have made sense for Luke to immediately leave with Rey when she found him; there had to be a reason why he chose to go into hiding, and their conflict makes the film more interesting. Same goes with Rey's parents; how many fans would've truly been happy with her being a Skywalker or Kenobi? Wasn't the overriding narrative about TFA that it was too much like the originals, that there weren't many surprises?

I think ultimately (some) people are unhappy with TLJ because recent blockbusters have allowed them to become lazy viewers. Studios are more interested in making money than creating art, and that's allowed them to form bad habits when creating these films. They're afraid to piss anyone off so they make safe, predictable popcorn flicks. If you look at the "controversial" blockbusters (TLJ, IM3, Hulk '03) they all did something unexpected, and for some reason that has become verboten.

The conversation surrounding movies today is rarely about the films themselves and what they mean. Instead we get crap like Cinema Sins which are obsessed with continuity errors, "plot holes" and other meaningless statistics that have no bearing on what movies are truly about: ideas, emotion and character. Movies are not puzzles to be solved and analyzed.

I will never understand the type of people that would prefer Vader's fan service fight scene from Rogue One over Luke's showdown with Kylo.

 

[Frodo]

The problem is that neither side seems all that willing or able to except that someone disagrees with their feelings about the film. As a result , they argue past each other as opposed to actually listening to their arguments or exchanging ideas.

At this point, its pretty clear why people love or hate the film. They've said it in posts, videos, blogs, articles etc , so it shouldn't be any mystery why some fans hate or love the film. They're all available and easy to find.

The problem is , neither side seems really willing or want to engage in a dialog with the other side based on their arguments because both extremes would rather be right and be validated, than to really understand why someone disagrees with them on TLJ.

 

[Elayis]

The problem is that neither side seems all that willing or able to except that someone disagrees with their feelings about the film. As a result , they argue past each other as opposed to actually listening to their arguments or exchanging ideas.

At this point, its pretty clear why people love or hate the film. They've said it in posts, videos, blogs, articles etc , so it shouldn't be any mystery why some fans hate or love the film. They're all available and easy to find.

The problem is , neither side seems really willing or want to engage in a dialog with the other side based on their arguments because both extremes would rather be right and be validated, than to really understand why someone disagrees with them on TLJ.

I've tried talking online with people who dislike the film, but their problems with the film never go past superficial critiques. They all seem very angry, and have much more of an emotional response than a simple disagreement with a movie should warrant. I've had my own disagreements with how certain franchises have been handled (in particular Abram's Trek), but my feelings only go so far. At the end of the day it's only a movie and I'm able to move on. No matter how much I may dislike certain decisions I still have all of the past incarnations that I love.

This characterization may not apply to all fans, but it seems to apply to most that I've encountered online. Unfortunately, all of the people I've talked iwth offline enjoy the film, so I have no personal experience with the intense dislike the film has generated.

 

[godisawesome]

Not sure if this has been brought up or not, but most of the things detractors of the film dislike (in particular Luke's role) are simply logical extensions of what Abrams did in TFA. So the choice was either dump all of what came before in VII or respect what Abrams did and make the best sequel possible out of the elements that were presented.

It was Abram's decision to make Luke a hermit and have Rey's overriding character trait be the mystery of her parentage. All Johnson did was take those plot threads and craft the most narratively satisfying story he could. It wouldn't have made sense for Luke to immediately leave with Rey when she found him; there had to be a reason why he chose to go into hiding, and their conflict makes the film more interesting. Same goes with Rey's parents; how many fans would've truly been happy with her being a Skywalker or Kenobi? Wasn't the overriding narrative about TFA that it was too much like the originals, that there weren't many surprises?

I think ultimately (some) people are unhappy with TLJ because recent blockbusters have allowed them to become lazy viewers. Studios are more interested in making money than creating art, and that's allowed them to form bad habits when creating these films. They're afraid to piss anyone off so they make safe, predictable popcorn flicks. If you look at the "controversial" blockbusters (TLJ, IM3, Hulk '03) they all did something unexpected, and for some reason that has become verboten.

The conversation surrounding movies today is rarely about the films themselves and what they mean. Instead we get crap like Cinema Sins which are obsessed with continuity errors, "plot holes" and other meaningless statistics that have no bearing on what movies are truly about: ideas, emotion and character. Movies are not puzzles to be solved and analyzed.

I will never understand the type of people that would prefer Vader's fan service fight scene from Rogue One over Luke's showdown with Kylo.

Eh, I'd kind of disagree with this on behalf of Lawrence Kasdan's script in TFA; TFA gives Rey and Finn fundamentally more character arcs and importance than TLJ, and it's a mistake to think that the core of Rey is wrapped up wholly in the mystery of who her parents were, or at the least that the mystery box doesn't actually matter as much in TFA as it does on TLJ. Don't get me wrong, a big chunk of Rey's characterization and scenes are bound up in her stubborn refusal to leave Jakku and desire to reunite with her parents. But ultimately, she has a clear character arc that's about getting her to let go of her obsession and look to the future, and the latter half of the film shows her doing that. And she never expressed any curiosity about who her parents were in TFA, just about whether they'd come back for her. Rey's story on TFA is still far more about who she is and what she can become than it is about her parents.

TLJ is the one that effectively made Rey's plotline about everything but her as a character; she's contorted and shortchanged in characterization around Kylo, creating an uneven and frankly unbelievable story that revolves around the two men in the Force plot, with her as a junior partner and third wheel. And not only is her parentage plot in TLJ largely redundant, since it copies the basic idea and even the specific emotional beats for her from TFA, but it becomes more of a meta-commentary than a character thing. Whereas in TFA her parents mattered only insofar as how their memory impacted her, in TLJ, it's about what her largest mean to the film's attempt at an "anyone can be the hero" theme, which feels laughable, considering that Kasdan did a better job with Finn in TLJ on the same topic and everyone already knew the Jedi hero could be anyone.

I also got to say I think my rejection of Luke's state at the beginning of the film hails from the scale of the atrocity in TFA and the contrast between Luke apathy and Han's responsible altruism; while I can accept a broken Luke as being the logical result of TFA's setup, a Luke who never even expresses a burning desire to help the Galaxy feels like strictly a TLJ invention made by slipping into melodrama and ignoring scale and consequences from the established lore.

The problem is that neither side seems all that willing or able to except that someone disagrees with their feelings about the film. As a result , they argue past each other as opposed to actually listening to their arguments or exchanging ideas.

At this point, its pretty clear why people love or hate the film. They've said it in posts, videos, blogs, articles etc , so it shouldn't be any mystery why some fans hate or love the film. They're all available and easy to find.

The problem is , neither side seems really willing or want to engage in a dialog with the other side based on their arguments because both extremes would rather be right and be validated, than to really understand why someone disagrees with them on TLJ.

I think some of the vitriol is born out of a fear of the franchise backsliding in one direction or another, and trying to shape the narrative about its reception to discourage or encourage certain things. For instance, I'm very concerned and disappointed about the quality of lore usage and plotting in TLJ, but I see and applaud the quality of directing and acting. My buddy, meanwhile, cares much less about the plotting quality and was traumatized by the Prequels, so he curses bad acting and directingt:.

As a result, I think that he disagrees with my anger and disenfranchisement on the basis that he knows I may actually be more willing to accept Prequel-style flaws in exchange for better writing, while I'm more likely to disagree with praising the film because I regard the lore and plotting as core elements that can't be forsaken as I believe they were in TLJ.

You *don't* have to argue angry, though. My buddy and I's podcast (which you can download and listen to in my signature ) managed what I think was a very even handed an good debate comparing TFA to TLJ. In part, we did this by following a set group of rules and script, but I think we also approached this with a lot less hyperbolic rage and disgust.

Give it a listen?

 

[Frodo]

I've tried talking online with people who dislike the film, but their problems with the film never go past superficial critiques. They all seem very angry, and have much more of an emotional response than a simple disagreement with a movie should warrant. I've had my own disagreements with how certain franchises have been handled (in particular Abram's Trek), but my feelings only go so far. At the end of the day it's only a movie and I'm able to move on. No matter how much I may dislike certain decisions I still have all of the past incarnations that I love.

This characterization may not apply to all fans, but it seems to apply to most that I've encountered online. Unfortunately, all of the people I've talked iwth offline enjoy the film, so I have no personal experience with the intense dislike the film has generated.

Well, I can't account for your interactions, though assuming you know where they're coming from already puts yourself at a disadvantage to understanding what they think or feel. You address their argument , not who you think they are or how you think they feel. There are a wide range of ways people love and hate the film. Take each person on a case by case basis.

Ultimately , you have to ask yourself what you want from these conversations.
If you're looking for answer that satisfies you personally, you're likely not gonna get.

If you're open to hearing how other people who disagree with you, you don't question their motivations or emotions , you question their arguments.

If you want to change their minds, that's not gonna happen.

If you truly want to exchange ideas and understand how different people feel about the the film, then that takes patience and an ability to be able to disagree without being disagreeable .

Ultimately you have to ask if you want fight about TLJ with someone who disagrees with you, or do you want to discuss it with someone who may not feel the same way.

 

[Frodo]

I think some of the vitriol is born out of a fear of the franchise backsliding in one direction or another, and trying to shape the narrative about its reception to discourage or encourage certain things. For instance, I'm very concerned and disappointed about the quality of lore usage and plotting in TLJ, but I see and applaud the quality of directing and acting. My buddy, meanwhile, cares much less about the plotting quality and was traumatized by the Prequels, so he curses bad acting and directingt:.

As a result, I think that he disagrees with my anger and disenfranchisement on the basis that he knows I may actually be more willing to accept Prequel-style flaws in exchange for better writing, while I'm more likely to disagree with praising the film because I regard the lore and plotting as core elements that can't be forsaken as I believe they were in TLJ.

You *don't* have to argue angry, though. My buddy and I's podcast (which you can download and listen to in my signature ) managed what I think was a very even handed an good debate comparing TFA to TLJ. In part, we did this by following a set group of rules and script, but I think we also approached this with a lot less hyperbolic rage and disgust.

Give it a listen?

I've seen the whole spectrum and several different reasons why people love and hate TLJ. While i've heard some of the same criticisms and praises over and over, I've also seen people who love one half but hate the other , or love one storyline but didn't like another etc.

So I try not to generalize motivations and feelings of those who love or hate it. I do identify the behavior of both extremes who can't seem to discuss their views without questioning the motivations of those who don't agree with them.

I take individuals at their word for why the like or don't like something , and I read or hear they're statements, which are usually pretty clear. In my own experience i've seen the non sw fans who i've talked about it have been equally split on TLJ.

It's good that you and your friend can discuss it without flying off the handle which both extremes seem to. And yes, I'll give it a listen.t:.

 

[herolee10]

And the sad thing about all of this is that Rian seems to be unwilling to admit or accept any criticism that he received for this film, which makes the future of this whole franchise very grim since this guy's ego seems like it has no limit.

 

[jmc]

I look at it this way, the animosity comes not because changes were made to the series, but in how they were implemented. You can't ask people to follow a certain path in the film before and then expect them not to get angry when you pull the rug out from under them in the next. It's got nothing to do with expectations either, the last film asked you to follow a certain path and people did so only to be told 2 years later that path was meaningless. Of course it's emotional, because people were basically told that thing they were invested in didn't matter anymore, and when you combine that with Luke becoming disillusioned with the Jedi, with Kylo saying forget the past, with Rey getting zero training whatsoever and still being stronger than everyone else, as well as some bad sub plots and supporting characters, then it's pretty damn easy to see why some people don't like this film. All it looks like is a film maker saying all that stuff you loved is pointless, and I don't know many people who would enjoy being told that thing they love is pointless.

 

[Spider-Fan]

And the sad thing about all of this is that Rian seems to be unwilling to admit or accept any criticism that he received for this film, which makes the future of this whole franchise very grim since this guy's ego seems like it has no limit.

If he is proud of the movie he made, why should he? Why admit fault for a movie if you found no fault in it?

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

And the sad thing about all of this is that Rian seems to be unwilling to admit or accept any criticism that he received for this film, which makes the future of this whole franchise very grim since this guy's ego seems like it has no limit.

He never evolved past the 'pretentious film student' phase of his life.

I look at it this way, the animosity comes not because changes were made to the series, but in how they were implemented. You can't ask people to follow a certain path in the film before and then expect them not to get angry when you pull the rug out from under them in the next. It's got nothing to do with expectations either, the last film asked you to follow a certain path and people did so only to be told 2 years later that path was meaningless. Of course it's emotional, because people were basically told that thing they were invested in didn't matter anymore, and when you combine that with Luke becoming disillusioned with the Jedi, with Kylo saying forget the past, with Rey getting zero training whatsoever and still being stronger than everyone else, as well as some bad sub plots and supporting characters, then it's pretty damn easy to see why some people don't like this film. All it looks like is a film maker saying all that stuff you loved is pointless, and I don't know many people who would enjoy being told that thing they love is pointless.

The movie and its media defenders are telling you that you were an idiot for ever liking Star Wars because it was all secretly terrible until Rian Moses came down from the mountain with his stone tablets to set you straight. Stone tablets that are in fact copies of the previous text but with the a lot of the words mixed up or forgotten.

See ya on Salt Hoth.

Outside of TLJ being a bad SW movie, even more importantly it's just a bad movie indulging in way too much white dude angst with too many characters (like Batman v Superman), mistimed attempts at humor, poorly directed action scenes, etc.

 

[Spider-Fan]

its media defenders are telling you that you were an idiot for ever liking Star Wars because it was all secretly terrible until Rian Moses came down from the mountain with his stone tablets to set you straight. Stone tablets that are in fact copies of the previous text but with the a lot of the words mixed up or forgotten.

See ya on Salt Hoth.

That is not at all what the people who liked Ep 8 are saying. The fact that we saw TLJ means we in all likelihood LOVED these movies. But, what I would say is we don't want to see the same movie again. The OT films are some of the best pieces of filmmaking ever. Much like pepperoni pizza. But, that doesn't mean I always want pepperoni pizza or that playing with other toppings might not lead to something also enjoyable.

As for your part about the similarities, TLJ definitely used similar Star Wars set-ups, but it was to intentionally to take those threads new places and explore them differently. Luke's trip to the cave didn't play out like Rey's. Rey's attempt to save Kylo in the throne room didn't end like Luke's attempts. Etc. While they certainly mirror OT scenarios, they play out differently and move the story in a different direction.

If you don't like the movie, that is fine. But if your going to make grand sweeping statements, make sure they're accurate and not some strawman bullcrap.

 

[Frodo]

If he is proud of the movie he made, why should he? Why admit fault for a movie if you found no fault in it?

I'm pretty sure he is fine with the choices he made. He may monday morning quarterback about how he may have done x or y differently in hindsight since filmmakers rarely if ever think their own product is 100 percent perfect.

At the same time , I also tend to think he accepts criticisms. He may not agree with all of them, but he probably excepts them.

 

[Agent Orange]

I've always found Rian to be affable and engaging on Twitter. If he's occasionally defensive or snarky about his choices I'd wager that it's because of the 5, 6, 7, 8 etc. #LastJediAwful #RuinJohnson #NotMyLuke morons who respond to every single tweet that he makes. I'm not talking about different people making similar criticisms - I'm talking about the *exact same people* in every thread.

 

[random_havoc]

At the same time , I also tend to think he accepts criticisms. He may not agree with all of them, but he probably excepts them.

can you offer any evidence of this? Because the only response to criticism I've seen from any of them was looking down on the fans who didn't like it (especially JJ basically saying anyone who didn't like it are just threatened by women. Way to be an a-hole JJ)

 

[danoyse]

I'm pretty sure he is fine with the choices he made. He may monday morning quarterback about how he may have done x or y differently in hindsight since filmmakers rarely if ever think their own product is 100 percent perfect.

At the same time , I also tend to think he accepts criticisms. He may not agree with all of them, but he probably excepts them.

I’ve seen him engage with fans who didn’t like the movie, and the conversation has been very civil and polite.

It’s the #LastJediAwful/#NotMyStarWars/Jake Skywalker loons who scream like an overtired toddler who get called out as giant babies. And if they don’t like that, they should stop acting like giant babies when they try to talk to anyone on Twitter.

 

[danoyse]

can you offer any evidence of this? Because the only response to criticism I've seen from any of them was looking down on the fans who didn't like it (especially JJ basically saying anyone who didn't like it are just threatened by women. Way to be an a-hole JJ)

If you look at the “Tweets & Replies” at Rian’s Twitter, you can see his responses to fans. Not all are SW-related, a bunch this week are about Phantom of the Opera, but the only time he has anything derogatory to say about the fans are the ones that troll him or any of the cast (the ones that wrote ugly comments on Kelly Marie Tran’s Instagram, for example. He said those are the only accounts he mutes at this point.

 

[Frodo]

can you offer any evidence of this? Because the only response to criticism I've seen from any of them was looking down on the fans who didn't like it (especially JJ basically saying anyone who didn't like it are just threatened by women. Way to be an a-hole JJ)

Well you've got the JJ quote wrong. From what I understand , JJ was not referring to dislike of TLJ, but the sexist trolls who specifically went after TFA and TLJ because of the role of women in the film. It wasn't towards those who have valid criticisms of the film.

Alot of sites tried to imply he was defending the last jedi from criticism , but that wasn't the case.

As for Johnson, I said that I tend to think he accepts criticisms. There may be some he accepts more than others and he may not agree with all of them. Accepting criticisms doesn't necessarily mean you like , agree, or concede to them .

But I have a question for you? What is it that he's said against those who didn't like the film?

I'm not trying to challenge you , but I want to know what you're specifically referring to with regards to Johnson.