The Last Jedi Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

[MagnarTheGreat]

Nancy by Olivia Jaimes for April 17, 2018 | GoComics.com

 

[Blade Hoarder]

He's playing the long game. He's already the world's richest man by some estimates, what difference does a few million make. His ultimate aim is to completely destabilize Western democracies, and poisoning even our innocuous conversation about entertainment is part of that. It's all about sowing animosity and hate.

It says more about America, if it can be destabilized by a fricking movie, than it says anything about Russia. If I was Putin, why wouldn't I terrorize such a weak, glass house of a country. Just to laugh my ass off.

 

[Another_Fool]

It's a really dissatisfying film to watch. It's crazy, because the whole film is well shot, well acted, well art directed... but it all takes a back seat to the story... which is unconventional to say the least. It was a bold move on their part to make a Star Wars film about heroic missteps and well intentioned failures... but it's just not a pleasant experience, story wise. Our heroes are run through the gutter, and for what? The film feels like a cinematic version of "eat your pees; just get through this so we can get to the good stuff. You'll understand later"

I think this is one of the more fair and understandable criticisms of TLJ.

 

[CJ]

I was disappointed, but I don't think it was the worst movie I've ever seen.. I can understand the hate from hardcore fans though. Luke was disgraced in this movie. He sucked green milk from an alien's nipples, showed no emotion over Han's death, and was killed off in the end.

Finn was completely wasted in this movie. What was his arc again? In TFA he was a stormtrooper who went rogue and was trying to help the Resistance fight the first order.

But umm.. What exactly was his purpose in this film? He just sortof wandered around the galaxy with Tico, (an incredibly dull and uninteresting character) I thought Finn had good chemistry with Rey in TFA, but I don't think the two shared a single scene in TLJ, which was disappointing.

Kylo Ren is the one thing I liked about this movie. He is a great villain and I am very intrigued to see where his character will go in Episode 9.

But yeah, overall this movie was a huge bore. Blaming the backlash on Russian Bots is ridiculous.

 

[wampa1]

Finn was completely wasted in this movie. What was his arc again? In TFA he was a stormtrooper who went rogue and was trying to help the Resistance fight the first order.

Finn's motivation in TFA wasn't about helping the Resistance. He was interested in helping Rey and getting away from the FO. He lied about knowing how to disable the shields on Starkiller just so he could go with Han and help her.

In TFA his arc is committing to a friend and in the TLJ his arc is committing to the Resistance.

 

[godisawesome]

Finn's motivation in TFA wasn't about helping the Resistance. He was interested in helping Rey and getting away from the FO. He lied about knowing how to disable the shields on Starkiller just so he could go with Han and help her.

In TFA his arc is committing to a friend and in the TLJ his arc is committing to the Resistance.

Finn's motivation grew beyond running away from the FO to include opposing the First Order on Tarkonda, when he sees Starkiller Base destroy the Hosnian System, and runs back to rejoin Han, abandoning his escape route, well before Rey is captured; Finn's not just about her in the last act, she's just motivating him to take an insane risk as well as fight the First Order.

Finn comes back to Han to tell him about Starkiller Base, accompanies him and Maz down to get the lightsaber, and has fought and killed multiple Stormtroopers before he sees that Rey has been captured. He *chose* to come back and fight them and tell the Han and thus the Resistance about Starkiller Base instead of escaping, and he doesn't know where Rey is or what's happening to her until the fight's all but won.

And then on Starkiller Base, Finn never raises an objection to staying even longer to ensure the oscillator's defenses are broken, and even before that, he prioritizes the Resistance mission Han is on before freeing Rey.

Finn in Act 3 of TFA may only have found the courage to brave the belly of the beast on SKB because Rey was in danger, but he's *already* moved onto seeing the big picture about why opposing the First Order is necessary and chosen to do so.

TLJ regresses him a bit because TLJ has *every* character being a bit more self-centered or faux-philosophic than they were in TFA: Finn's suddenly a shortsighted coward for all of 5 minutes so that getting over that can serve as his pitiful character arc in this film, Rey ignores what Kylo is and what he's done because she's suddenly obsessed with finding her place in all this, instead of just being highly motivated to fight her fascist violator and the man who killed and maimed her friends, Luke is so self centered that he blames the Jedi for his screw up and tries to deny his repsonisbilty towards the Galaxy, and Holdo and Poe are so self-centered they get 90% of the Resisatnce killed over what's either communication issues or are just bad writing... and no one reacts with the horror or sorrow such a thing would cause when the film ends with them smiling on the Falcon.

TFA has heart. TLJ has big ideas that it fails to properly execute.

 

[wampa1]

Finn comes back for Rey when the FO start blowing stuff of Tarkonda. The first thing he says when he comes back is:

FINN "The First Order, they've done it. Where's Rey?".

Maz gives him the lightsaber and says:

MAZ "Take it! Find your friend!"

He fights the FO on Tarkonda because they're in his way and he's dead if he doesn't. Plus, of course he has some pent up aggression towards them.

Re. Starkiller, he uses Poe as a means to get to Leia and then uses his knowledge of Starkiller as a means to be the man to go along. There's this exchange which shows that he bull****ted his way on to the mission.

HAN "Sanitation? Then how do you know how to disable the shields?

FINN: I don't. I'm just here to get Rey.

HAN: People are counting on us! The galaxy is counting on us--!

And then he helps, because he's fundamental quite a decent guy and is best placed to do so. But being guilted into helping is a far cry to being committed to the cause and fully fledged Resistance.

 

[henzINNIT]

If you watch them back to back, Finn's character arc tracks fine. I was one of those who felt like he regressed though, I guess I had 2 years to speculate on how a character would be the next day.

 

[Brother Jack]

I think Finn's arc makes sense on paper and leaves him in a decent spot to follow up in IX. The problem is in the execution. His fake-out sacrifice is not earned at all, nor is the relationship with Rose.

 

[Sorath]

I have my own view points on the new trilogy. I could go in to them; especially when it comes down to Last Jedi which I really though was brilliantly done. However I'm not going to. Instead I'm going to say this; it was a mistake for Disney to try and utilize the original characters. The problem with Star Wars is expectation. Fans have expectations and one of those expectations is that it will live up to the original films. Yet the new trilogy has not lived up to the original trilogy.

Almost every fan no matter what all still love and cherish the original trilogy. We have are debates about the original trilogy such as who shot first Han or Greedo. Yet we can all agree that the original trilogy was a sci-fi master piece. Fans are not divided on the original trilogy. Yet you go to prequels they are divided. A lot of fans hated them other fans like myself thought they were good films; not as good as originals but good. The minute TFA fans where divided with many fan loving it and other like myself hating it. Now we have last Jedi and once again fans are divided.

Disney royally screwed up by trying to use the original characters. When heard they where making new Star Wars film and they where using the original characters I knew this would happen. I told people around me that fans would be divided and that their was no way films would full fill fans expectation. I said that Disney should have done a Star Wars movie free of any and all of the original characters. They should have done something completely new and fresh. Given us new and fresh characters never seen before. Even still it wouldn't live up to the original trilogy. However it wouldn't have weighed the writers down with what had all ready been done. They would been free to do a story line free of those characters and story ideas.

Bottom line is Star Wars is a sinking ship. Star Wars like Star Trek will limp on and never fully recover. What content does exist will leave a bitter taste in fans mouth. It would been better to just leave star wars alone and not do anything.

 

[henzINNIT]

I have my own view points on the new trilogy. I could go in to them; especially when it comes down to Last Jedi which I really though was brilliantly done. However I'm not going to. Instead I'm going to say this; it was a mistake for Disney to try and utilize the original characters.

Couldn't disagree more, even with the benefit of hindsight. Disney would have never lived down not using them. Fans would be far more toxic toward Disney if they were 2 films into a sequel trilogy and hadn't brought back the OT cast, especially with the passing of Carrie killing all hope of a reunion..

 

[2kt09]

Bottom line is Star Wars is a sinking ship. Star Wars like Star Trek will limp on and never fully recover. What content does exist will leave a bitter taste in fans mouth. It would been better to just leave star wars alone and not do anything.

works in animation

 

[HKpowerup]

Despite the strong backlash from the hardcore SW fandom of TLJ, we, as in diehard genre movie fans, tend to forget that it was generally a very well received movie.

I appreciate its different and rugged take on an aged and disenchanted Luke Skywalker. In fact Luke, as a conflicted character, is far more interesting now than ever before and I’m glad he’s confirmed to return, likely as a force ghost, in episode 9.

What Luke did at the end of the movie was in line with the non-violent principles of the Jedi and at the same time displaying one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, force ability ever seen. We all would’ve liked seeing Luke physically present at Crait and use Force wizardry to take out the First Order army and defeat Kylo Ren in a proper 1v1 lightsaber duel. But what Luke did via the force projection echoed Yoda’s teachings and was an incomprehensibly powerful act in itself. It was a different choice from the creative team, and I respect the hell out of them for it. And this extends to not just the ending, but for the choices made in the entire movie with regards to Luke's character. He's gone from one-dimensional to multi-dimensional.

Star Wars is still in a very strong place in my opinion, and the numbers support this - Box Office revenue, critic scores, audience scores, etc.

Yes, Solo was a major bump in the road for Lucasfilm and Disney, but they will course-correct after that experience.

 

[X Knight]

I know this is way late, but I'm finally getting around to watching Last Jedi.

Last year around this time, I was dealing with some unexpected "life" issues ( which I'm still dealing with ), so I didn't have the time or desire frankly to see this in the theater. In fact, the last movie I saw in the theaters was Wonder Woman.

So, I've been getting caught up with the films I missed and watching them at home.

And frankly, I've been having a hard time getting into this. I've tried about 3 or 4 times and I just can't get the motivation to finish it all the way through. I think I have about an hour left.

Overall, it just feels like a massive stepback from Force Awakens. All the things setup in the first film just feel like they've tossed them for the sake of defying fan expectations. And I just don't find myself that interested in the current direction they seem to be going. For Luke fans, especially, it's just a massive disappointment with what they've done to the character. All those years waiting for the heroic return of the beloved hero, and this is what we get?

And yes, despite my previous defense of Rey not being a Mary Sue. If she is indeed a nobody and not Skywalker blood, then she IS a Mary Sue, in my book. And she's far less interesting as a character now, imo.

Coming off of Force Awakens, I was SO hyped and excited for this new trilogy. But now, not so much.

 

[HKpowerup]

And frankly, I've been having a hard time getting into this. I've tried about 3 or 4 times and I just can't get the motivation to finish it all the way through. I think I have about an hour left.

Overall, it just feels like a massive stepback from Force Awakens. All the things setup in the first film just feel like they've tossed them for the sake of defying fan expectations. And I just don't find myself that interested in the current direction they seem to be going. For Luke fans, especially, it's just a massive disappointment with what they've done to the character. All those years waiting for the heroic return of the beloved hero, and this is what we get?

And yes, despite my previous defense of Rey not being a Mary Sue. If she is indeed a nobody and not Skywalker blood, then she IS a Mary Sue, in my book. And she's far less interesting as a character now, imo.

Coming off of Force Awakens, I was SO hyped and excited for this new trilogy. But now, not so much.

Very interesting. I personally found TLJ to be a refreshing change. I'm not a huge fan of the original trilogy to be honest, they're entertaining but not much more than that. I also respect the prequels considerably more than most people, primarily for the visuals and developing Yoda's background, but also acknowledge the atrocious dialogue and acting.

The new movies have been very good in my opinion, TFA and Rogue One feel much more grounded and serious than the original trilogy.

I guess my view of TLJ just stems from the fact that I'm a movie fan first, and a Star Wars fan second.

 

[Brother Jack]

And yes, despite my previous defense of Rey not being a Mary Sue. If she is indeed a nobody and not Skywalker blood, then she IS a Mary Sue, in my book. And she's far less interesting as a character now, imo.

The Mary Sue critique was about her being too perfect and not having any flaws. Her family tree has nothing to do with that, really. And she displays flaws in both films so it's a moot argument anyway.

 

[Gothamsknight]

The Mary Sue critique was about her being too perfect and not having any flaws. Her family tree has nothing to do with that, really. And she displays flaws in both films so it's a moot argument anyway.

Agreed completely. at this point, i don't even see the point in telling people she isn't because facts won't change their mind. She has plenty of flaws, and people ignore the fact that luke was able to destroy a death star in a new hope with ease but trash rey for doing the same thing. The whole "mary sue" claim has been dead and proven false since the force awakens

 

[random_havoc]

Well you tried... i won't even do that. I still have the BluRay in shrinkwrap on my shelf. And that shrink wrap is never comming off. Just got the BluRay for my collection.

I will never understand this mindset. Every time people do this they're telling the studio to keep making garbage movies, cuz people are dumb enough to pay them anyway. It's like someone else on these boards who said they hated the movie but they watched it in the theatre a couple times anyways, because it's Star Wars. WHO CARES! If it's not good don't pay them for it. You're promoting them making more garbage Star Wars films. Just like every single person who knows the next one will suck too but goes to see it anyway. Watch it later when it's free, folks. If you really care about Star Wars, stop paying until they give us good ones.
This foolish mindset is what left us with getting terrible Transformer movie after terrible Transformer movie.

 

[random_havoc]

The Mary Sue critique was about her being too perfect and not having any flaws. Her family tree has nothing to do with that, really. And she displays flaws in both films so it's a moot argument anyway.

Agreed completely. at this point, i don't even see the point in telling people she isn't because facts won't change their mind. She has plenty of flaws, and people ignore the fact that luke was able to destroy a death star in a new hope with ease but trash rey for doing the same thing. The whole "mary sue" claim has been dead and proven false since the force awakens

She's the definition of a Mary Sue. If the title doesn't apply to her it doesn't apply to any character ever in the history of fiction.

 

[Madam-Shogun]

Tbh I thought it was boring with out of place humor. Also phasma and finn served no purpose if you're honest with yourself. The movie looked good tho. I think the throne room battle was the only thing that I liked objectively. Also I felt that none of the EU canon lore was utilized in any meaningful way, hell it even kinda contradicts it. The new trilogy overall just seemed like a hollow rehash. Strangely I loved the stand alone films. Go figure.

 

[Another_Fool]

I know this is way late, but I'm finally getting around to watching Last Jedi.

Last year around this time, I was dealing with some unexpected "life" issues ( which I'm still dealing with ), so I didn't have the time or desire frankly to see this in the theater. In fact, the last movie I saw in the theaters was Wonder Woman.

So, I've been getting caught up with the films I missed and watching them at home.

And frankly, I've been having a hard time getting into this. I've tried about 3 or 4 times and I just can't get the motivation to finish it all the way through. I think I have about an hour left.

Overall, it just feels like a massive stepback from Force Awakens. All the things setup in the first film just feel like they've tossed them for the sake of defying fan expectations. And I just don't find myself that interested in the current direction they seem to be going. For Luke fans, especially, it's just a massive disappointment with what they've done to the character. All those years waiting for the heroic return of the beloved hero, and this is what we get?

And yes, despite my previous defense of Rey not being a Mary Sue. If she is indeed a nobody and not Skywalker blood, then she IS a Mary Sue, in my book. And she's far less interesting as a character now, imo.

Coming off of Force Awakens, I was SO hyped and excited for this new trilogy. But now, not so much.

In The Last Jedi it wasn't Rey who ultimately convinced Luke to help the Resistance on Crait. It wasn't her who was right about Kylo. She made mistakes and she failed at her main objectives in the movie. And now she's the Mary Sue.

Got it.

 

[X Knight]

if Mary Sue isn't the right term to use, then I'll use another term.

convenient. Rey is too "convenient" of a character for plot purposes.

She's conveniently strong with the Force and conveniently good (enough) at light saber combat to best a trained Kylo and those trained Guards despite having very little training herself. And Luke did very little to train Rey in TLJ, so that doesn't help her much going forward.

Rey is also conveniently good at being a pilot and can fly the Falcon and she is also conveniently good at being a mechanic, fixing BB8 and the Falcon.

Rey may not be "perfect" in the strict sense of the Mary Sue definition, but she is awfully good at quite a few key things, which also happen to be things that the Skywalkers are good at ( Force, pilot skills, mechanical skills ) despite her not being of Skywalker blood.

if she were of Skywalker blood, you could explain away a lot of those "conveniences" by saying it runs in the family.

 

[Silver Surfer]

if Mary Sue isn't the right term to use, then I'll use another term.

convenient. Rey is too "convenient" of a character for plot purposes.

She's conveniently strong with the Force and conveniently good (enough) at light sabre combat to best a trained Kylo and those trained Guards despite having very little training herself. And Luke did very little to train Rey in TLJ, so that doesn't help her much going forward.

Rey is also conveniently good at being a pilot and can fly the Falcon and she is also conveniently good at being a mechanic, fixing BB8 and the Falcon.

Rey may not be "perfect" in the strict sense of the Mary Sue definition, but she is awfully good at quite a few key things, which also happen to be things that the Skywalkers are good at ( Force, pilot skills, mechanical skills ) despite her not being of Skywalker blood.

if she were of Skywalker blood, you could explain away a lot of those "conveniences" by saying it runs in the family.

No man, Rey was beating fools with her stick on Jakku for years, that totally translates to lightsaber combat skills good enough to beat Kylo in her first ever lightsaber fight. All those Jedi and Sith, who spent years training their lightsaber skills were chumps, all they had to do was swing sticks at people and boom master swordsman skills.

 

[Iceman]

I think Finn's arc makes sense on paper and leaves him in a decent spot to follow up in IX. The problem is in the execution. His fake-out sacrifice is not earned at all, nor is the relationship with Rose.

I will really struggle to rewatch that fake sacrifice and Rose’s lines/actions. It would have actually been a great genuine sacrifice scene if they had gone through with it, and instead it is an embarrassing part of the film. That Rose and Finn are also burdened with the **** of Canto Bight gives them no chance really.

 

[Frodo]

In alot of ways, I would have liked to see Finn and Poe's positions switch in the film, i.e. Poe goes to Canto Bight with Rose, she has a thing for him given his reputation in the fight against the first order . He has his beliefs and ideas about the struggle challenged by Del Toro's character etc.

At the same time, if Finn stays behind on the ship and start's challenging Holdo's actions and she clearly wouldn't trust him . So you'd have this First order deserter questioning Command when he really hasn't taken a side in the fight yet ,and the Holdo a character who is on a side and has been on the right side of it, would, in a sense, force Finn to confront his lack of commitment and discover where he loyalties are aside from Rey.

Now you'd have to change several story details in order for that to work , but in hindsight , I would have liked to see the dynamics switch and Poe and Finn placed in opposite circumstances with those two story threads.

Yes, I know there are people perfectly fine with how it played out, but I personally would be interested to see things play out the other way.