The Dark Knight Rises Why did they wait 5months to blow up the city

[The Joker]

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[BatLobster]

Bane was like Ra's, but worse. Hence all the "he was too extreme for Ra's al Ghul" stuff, even if that's a bit of a red herring.

I dunno, I liked the whole concept of Bane being the monster who was cast out the League, only to be brought back in after the death of Ra's, fully backed by the al Ghul bloodline. Ra's al Ghul may not be physically immortal in these films, but I loved that his legend and purpose never died...even if it was being a bit contorted by the living. It went with theme of legacies, symbols and how they evolve into the future, which Blake is the other end of.

I also think there's something of a parallel there to when the mob turns to the Joker out of desperation. The League were desperate in the wake of Ra's death and needed to regroup. The only difference is Talia wasn't turning to a man she didn't understand, as she deeply understood who Bane was and what he was capable of. And that's who Bane is to me...he's the closer. He's the guy you bring in when you want to go for the throat.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Yeah, that's the whole point. The obvious contradiction. Bane says he's there to do the work Ra's wanted to do, yet his methods and goal conflict with that entirely.

If Bane wasn't a believer in what he was doing, then I doubt he would have stuck around after he disposed of Bruce. I assume Bane, on some level, had a similar philosophy and grim view of humanity, but his methods were apparently a tad more radical.

It's unclear whether or not Bane was truly doing this for Ra's or himself but you almost get the feeling that Bane was more offended at Bruce double-crossing the organization than killing Ra's.

 

[Brother Jack]

A Gotham that was peaceful and crime and corruption free.

Daggett and the adulterous politician say that there was corruption in Gotham. But that's not the whole reason for Bane and Talia wanting to finish what Ra's started and destroy the city. To them it should have been razed a long time ago and Bruce with his vigilantism and lie surrounding Dent was only delaying the inevitable ("a storm's coming" and such).

 

[BatLobster]

Daggett and the adulterous politician say that there was corruption in Gotham. But that's not the whole reason for Bane and Talia wanting to finish what Ra's started and destroy the city. To them it should have been razed a long time ago and Bruce with his vigilantism and lie surrounding Dent was only delaying the inevitable ("a storm's coming" and such).

 

[Ravage]

Because Bane was a sadist. I guess he wanted Bruce to watch his show of a lifetime as long as he can. He could've destroyed everything in a second but he wanted Bruce to watch Gothamites divide and eat each other to "stay in the sun".

As soon as Talia and Bane realized Bruce is back, there was no longer any reason to delay big bang any further.

 

[The Joker]

If Bane wasn't a believer in what he was doing, then I doubt he would have stuck around after he disposed of Bruce.

I'm sure Bane did believe in what he was doing, but what he was doing was a contradiction to what Ra's destiny/work was.

It's unclear whether or not Bane was truly doing this for Ra's or himself but you almost get the feeling that Bane was more offended at Bruce double-crossing the organization than killing Ra's.

Yes, that's another thing. Why would anyone want to fulfill the work of a man who hated them and excommunicated them? Obviously it was something that annoyed Bane given his reaction to Batman mentioning it.

It really fuels the camp that says Bane was doing it for Talia. Not sure I believe that argument, but it sounds better than the contradictive nature of Bane's plan being a fulfilling of Ra's destiny.

Daggett and the adulterous politician say that there was corruption in Gotham.

Two guys in a whole city. Name me one city in the world where you couldn't find someone to buy off like that. Does that mean every city is hopeless and must be destroyed?

But that's not the whole reason for Bane and Talia wanting to finish what Ra's started and destroy the city. To them it should have been razed a long time ago and Bruce with his vigilantism and lie surrounding Dent was only delaying the inevitable ("a storm's coming" and such).

How many more times are you and the two others who keep mentioning this going to blindly ignore that the Dent lie was uncovered AFTER they had already decided to destroy Gotham?

Seriously did that escape your notice or something?

I'd like to hear the dialogue or hints that suggest Bane and Talia, or even the LOS in general took a dim view on Bruce's vigilantism to stop crime.

No conjecture please. Cold hard quotes and proof from the movies.

 

[BatLobster]

I'd like to hear the dialogue or hints that suggest Bane and Talia, or even the LOS in general took a dim view on Bruce's vigilantism to stop crime.

No conjecture please. Cold hard quotes and proof from the movies.

"Like your father you lack the courage to do what is necessary."

Ra's seems to think Bruce's intentions are noble, but that Gotham is simply not worth saving, which makes Bruce's mission is a futile one.

"But a man who doesn't care about the world doesn't spend half his fortune on a plan to save it- and isn't so wounded when it fails that he goes into hiding."

This is an ambiguous Talia line, but I interpreted that her taking a subtle dig at Bruce's mission not working out as he'd imagined (while simultaneously referring to the energy project of course)

The League of Shadows are a rigid, dogmatic, extremist organization. They seem to be obsessed with bringing down cities at the height of their prominence and power. Hence attacking Rome at the height of the Roman Empire and London during the height of the British Empire. I think they are very much trying to knock the "American Empire" down a peg and that's why they're obsessed with bringing down Gotham ("People of their status should experience the next era of western civilization"). I think they view these cities as global cancers that grow uncontrollably and thrown off the natural balance of the world ("When the forest grows too wild a purging fire is inevitable and natural"). They use the rampant crime and poor living conditions as a means to justify wiping out the innocent people too ("Only a cynical man would call what these people have lives, Wayne").

IMO, the reason these themes are not stated more explicitly in the movies is simply that these are Batman movies, and thus the focus is meant to be kept on Gotham. But I think the subtext is clearly there. These were Batman films for the post 9/11 era.

 

[JackWhite]

Bane and Talia setting up shop, waiting patiently to strike, only to stumble across Gordon's letter which would then become ammunition isn't bad writing, IMO. But I'll admit, I didn't think that would be how Bane and the LOS would find out the truth about Harvey Dent.

 

[rickfox]

 

[TheBat812]

"Like your father you lack the courage to do what is necessary."

Ra's seems to think Bruce's intentions are noble, but that Gotham is simply not worth saving, which makes Bruce's mission is a futile one.

"But a man who doesn't care about the world doesn't spend half his fortune on a plan to save it- and isn't so wounded when it fails that he goes into hiding."

This is an ambiguous Talia line, but I interpreted that her taking a subtle dig at Bruce's mission not working out as he'd imagined (while simultaneously referring to the energy project of course)

The League of Shadows are a rigid, dogmatic, extremist organization. They seem to be obsessed with bringing down cities at the height of their prominence and power. Hence attacking Rome at the height of the Roman Empire and London during the height of the British Empire. I think they are very much trying to knock the "American Empire" down a peg and that's why they're obsessed with bringing down Gotham ("People of their status should experience the next era of western civilization"). I think they view these cities as global cancers that grow uncontrollably and thrown off the natural balance of the world ("When the forest grows too wild a purging fire is inevitable and natural"). They use the rampant crime and poor living conditions as a means to justify wiping out the innocent people too ("Only a cynical man would call what these people have lives, Wayne").

IMO, the reason these themes are not stated more explicitly in the movies is simply that these are Batman movies, and thus the focus is meant to be kept on Gotham. But I think the subtext is clearly there. These were Batman films for the post 9/11 era.

I agree. This, and obviously the fact that Talia tells Bruce that it was vengeance for her father's death, tell us that she knows who Bruce is and what he was trying to accomplish as Batman.

Having said that, I still think it makes no sense to think that a terrorist organization would rethink it's entire goal of destroying Gotham because of a bandaid fix that is simply going to overwhelm a prison system and cause mayhem in the city when it reaches it's breaking point. To me, they still want to get rid of that. It's not a huge stretch, I don't know why you refuse to believe it so much, haha.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

BANE: "I'm Gotham's reckoning, here to end the borrowed time you've all been living on."

BANE: "Peace has cost you your strength. Victory has defeated you."

TALIA: "Innocent is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce."

TALIA: "I honor my father by finishing his work. Vengeance against the man who killed him is simply reward for my patience."

The League of Shadows doesn't care about "clean streets."

 

[MAKAVELI25]

Daggett and the adulterous politician say that there was corruption in Gotham. But that's not the whole reason for Bane and Talia wanting to finish what Ra's started and destroy the city. To them it should have been razed a long time ago and Bruce with his vigilantism and lie surrounding Dent was only delaying the inevitable ("a storm's coming" and such).

People keep forgetting that Bane only found Gordon's letter WAY late in to his plan. The Dent cover-up was incidental, it would have made a lot more sense if they knew about it before they even got to Gotham. LAZY WRITING

 

[MAKAVELI25]

BANE: "I'm Gotham's reckoning, here to end the borrowed time you've all been living on."

BANE: "Peace has cost you your strength. Victory has defeated you."

TALIA: "Innocent is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce."

TALIA: "I honor my father by finishing his work. Vengeance against the man who killed him is simply reward for my patience."

The League of Shadows doesn't care about "clean streets."

No, BANE AND TALIA don't care about clean streets. Which is the point we have been trying to make all along, Talia is clearly motivated by revenge. What is Bane's motivation apart from Talia?

 

[BatLobster]

No, BANE AND TALIA don't care about clean streets. Which is the point we have been trying to make all along, Talia is clearly motivated by revenge. What is Bane's motivation apart from Talia?

This argument keeps going in circles. Just because you guys aren't satisfied with Bane's motivations doesn't mean they're nonexistent. We've pointed out Bane's disgust for the rich (which even The Guard agreed was there). I've pointed out how this jives well with the LOS's disgust for decadent societies. Once again, they aren't just concerned about the law being upheld...how could they be when they've attacked various civilizations through the ages, each with different sets of laws? This assumption that Ra's wanted to attack Gotham simply because of organized crime is an erroneous one and it leads IMO to the erroneous argument that Ra's would have let Gotham live in peace because of the Dent Act.

The plan of the LOS was extremely detailed and specific. Regardless of whether the Dent Act was based on a lie or not, they had to be planning on breaking the prisoners out of Blackgate, just like they broke everyone out of Arkham in Begins. Only this time they'd add the prisoners to their army. The fact that it was a lie is just fuel to the fire, and maybe wins them some extra sympathy to their cause.

Also, Bane finding Gordon's speech may not have been the strongest plot point but really, if they were advancing the story 8 years and a part of the setup of the story was the LOS having built this underground army in Gotham and Talia has adopted an alternate alias for years...the only way to handle them finding out before launching their plan is to explain it through exposition, and the film was already front-heavy in that regard. And I thought Bane finding out so easily drove home the point that this was not as airtight as Bruce would've liked to have thought and it could easily backfire. Good men like Jim Gordon can only carry a lie like that so far before it starts to eat them up. He didn't have the option to hide like Bruce did. The burden had become too heavy for him, to the point that he was inches away from spilling the beans publicly. Him keeping the speech in his coat is symbolic of him carrying the painful truth with him everywhere.

 

[Micromind]

Talia is clearly motivated by revenge. What is Bane's motivation apart from Talia?

Bane's Quote -

"For an army will be raised... The powerful will be ripped from their decadent nests... And cast into the cold world the rest of us have known annd endured... Courts will be converted... The spoils will be enjoyed... Blood will be shed..."

Now, Bane is trying to mislead the public and justify his takeover the City but it still goes to show that Bane is aware of the state of Gotham, the rich and powerful hiding in their decadent nests, the social inequality, the crime and corruption, that was the original reason why LOS under the Ra's wanted to destroy Gotham, to serve as an example for the other Cities.

Bane may not believe in Ra's ideals and goals but Bane is a manipulator, he will use that reasons to further his personal goals which he does.

Some of Bane's motivation could be -

* To help Talia in her mission of revenge, As he feels that he must do something for her as he was freed by her, also he feels obligation to fulfill Ra's dream as he was trained by him.

* Bane has some emotional bond with Taila, so him acting in accordance with her wishes is not far fetched.

* To take some sort of personal pleasure by destroying Batman, as he thinks Ra's expelling him out of LOS but wanting Bruce to lead LOS as Ra's thought that Bruce was his best student was unfair and Bane wanted to prove a point that he was better then Bruce.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

What I wonder is if the league came back because despite the eradication of organized crime, Gotham got much worse with corrupt bankers, the rich, etc causing the meltdown/large wealth gaps (capitalism at it's worst), or because they were simply wanting to fulfil Ra's destiny out of revenge/loyalty, they would have come back no matter what (even if the city was completely fine, with no wealth gaps/corrupt rich, in which I don't think even Ra's would have come back).

 

[BatLobster]

What I wonder is if the league came back because despite the eradication of organized crime, Gotham got much worse with corrupt bankers, the rich, etc causing the meltdown/large wealth gaps (capitalism at it's worst), or because they were simply wanting to fulfil Ra's destiny out of revenge/loyalty, they would have come back no matter what (even if the city was completely fine, with no wealth gaps/corrupt rich, in which I don't think even Ra's would have come back).

I think the point is...in a major city like Gotham, there is always going to be wealth gaps/corrupt rich, and that is just one reason they felt it was beyond saving. That is why they believed in Ra's al Ghul's mission no matter what. That's just a cold reality of life in the big city. There's also the fact that by Gotham being the world's "greatest city", it could serve as a perfect symbol for the message they are trying to send the world. The LOS defines itself as a "check against human corruption". The periodic attacks on thriving civilizations is something they consider their duty in order to uphold what they see as the natural balance of the world.

 

[Fudgie]

I'm sure Bane did believe in what he was doing, but what he was doing was a contradiction to what Ra's destiny/work was.



Yes, that's another thing. Why would anyone want to fulfill the work of a man who hated them and excommunicated them? Obviously it was something that annoyed Bane given his reaction to Batman mentioning it.

It really fuels the camp that says Bane was doing it for Talia. Not sure I believe that argument, but it sounds better than the contradictive nature of Bane's plan being a fulfilling of Ra's destiny.



Two guys in a whole city. Name me one city in the world where you couldn't find someone to buy off like that. Does that mean every city is hopeless and must be destroyed?



How many more times are you and the two others who keep mentioning this going to blindly ignore that the Dent lie was uncovered AFTER they had already decided to destroy Gotham?

Seriously did that escape your notice or something?

I'd like to hear the dialogue or hints that suggest Bane and Talia, or even the LOS in general took a dim view on Bruce's vigilantism to stop crime.

No conjecture please. Cold hard quotes and proof from the movies.

Common sense at last.

People keep forgetting that Bane only found Gordon's letter WAY late in to his plan. The Dent cover-up was incidental, it would have made a lot more sense if they knew about it before they even got to Gotham. LAZY WRITING

They ain't forgetting it they're just ignoring it so Bane's plan doesn't seem so stupid.

Check out this vid which shows just how dumb Bane's plan was: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXpcYvnV6GY&list=UUHCph-_jLba_9atyCZJPLQQ&feature=player_embedded

No, BANE AND TALIA don't care about clean streets. Which is the point we have been trying to make all along, Talia is clearly motivated by revenge. What is Bane's motivation apart from Talia?

Too right.

Bane was doing it for Talia. She was in charge and just motivated by revenge. She did not care about her father's beliefs and neither did Bane. If they did they wouldn't be blowing up the city in the first place when it was not in a bad state.

 

[BatLobster]

Round and round we go.

 

[The Joker]

"Like your father you lack the courage to do what is necessary."

Ra's seems to think Bruce's intentions are noble, but that Gotham is simply not worth saving, which makes Bruce's mission is a futile one.

It's got nothing to do with that. By doing what is necessary he means killing. Like at the end when he thought Batman was going to stab him to death with his batarangs he said "Have you finally learned to do what is necessary?" to which Batman responded "I won't kill you. But I don't have to save you".

He was talking about taking a life. Being compassionate with his enemies by sparing them, like how he saved Ra's life earlier in the movie, and he threw it back in his face; "I warned you about compassion, Bruce".

Ra's never hinted he was against the idea of being Batman. It was that Bruce was too compassionate in his methods.

"But a man who doesn't care about the world doesn't spend half his fortune on a plan to save it- and isn't so wounded when it fails that he goes into hiding."

This is an ambiguous Talia line, but I interpreted that her taking a subtle dig at Bruce's mission not working out as he'd imagined (while simultaneously referring to the energy project of course)

After they had learned about the Harvey Dent lie, which makes sense with the fails part of the quote. But how does this imply she disapproved of him being Batman? It sounds more like a subtle dig that he tried and failed to save Gotham and went into hiding to lick his wounds.

They ain't forgetting it they're just ignoring it so Bane's plan doesn't seem so stupid.

Check out this vid which shows just how dumb Bane's plan was: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXpcYvnV6GY&list=UUHCph-_jLba_9atyCZJPLQQ&feature=player_embedded

LOL, that is hilarious, and also full of truths, too.

 

[BatLobster]

It's got nothing to do with that. By doing what is necessary he means killing. Like at the end when he thought Batman was going to stab him to death with his batarangs he said "Have you finally learned to do what is necessary?" to which Batman responded "I won't kill you. But I don't have to save you".

He was talking about taking a life. Being compassionate with his enemies by sparing them, like how he saved Ra's life earlier in the movie, and he threw it back in his face; "I warned you about compassion, Bruce".

Ra's never hinted he was against the idea of being Batman. It was that Bruce was too compassionate in his methods.

Exactly. Killing, the action Batman wants to avoid at all costs, is the action that Ra's believes is necessary on a wide scale to truly cleanse Gotham.

I'm not saying Ra's was against the idea of Batman in theory. He just seemed to view it as a "cute" and ultimately pointless exercise that was way too soft a measure in his eyes for a city like Gotham. Plus there's the fact that Bruce's choice to become Batman and try to clean up Gotham from the inside after initially rejecting Ra's plan to destroy the city is a direct slap in the face of the League of Shadows.

To me that would constitute a "dim" view, but maybe I misunderstood what you meant by that.

 

[MAKAVELI25]

Bane's Quote -


Now, Bane is trying to mislead the public and justify his takeover the City but it still goes to show that Bane is aware of the state of Gotham, the rich and powerful hiding in their decadent nests, the social inequality, the crime and corruption,

But where is any of this shown in the movie? The only rich people we meet apart from Wayne are Talia and Daggett, where are all the rich and powerful people hiding in their "decadent" nests? The movie shows none of this, no social inequality, no crime, and no corruption on a major level. The only corrupt person shown is Daggett, and what city anywhere in the world doesn't have a shady businessman like him? Where IN THE MOVIE is it shown that Gotham is anymore corrupt at the time than any other city in the world?

The only thing we know about the current state of the city is what the Mayor says in the beginning, the Dent Act has helped clean it up. I don't understand how people take Bane's words in the speech scenes so seriously when in those same speeches he promises Gotham that they will be safe if no external forces intervene.

 

[The Joker]

To me that would constitute a "dim" view, but maybe I misunderstood what you meant by that.

I believe you did, my friend. Someone said the LOS were against Bruce and his vigilantism as Batman. Simply not true. It was as you so ably explained his unwillingness to be a killer.

 

[MAKAVELI25]

I can't get over how dumb it is that the people of Gotham are supposed to believe Bane because he claims to have found a letter written by the police commissioner. No real evidence or proof, just a letter with handwriting. Hey, if you can't trust the terrorist who's just laid siege to your city who can you trust?