Superman Returns Why didn't Singer read the SM DC Archives?

[Arkady Rossovich]

I don't understand how you can think Superman Returns was an attempt to reinvent Superman. It is an obvious reintroduction to established characters.

Superman Returns was done in a similar style to the X-Men movies i belive.Certain things have been altered in order to appeal to non-comic fans,Superman is known all over the world.

Some things might not appeal to non-comic fans,so the idea of Lois with a child might appeal to the current times.While comic fans might not like this,the movie was ment to draw in all crowds.Comic and non-comic.

 

[Kabuki_Jo]

I absolutely agree, X-Maniac.

 

[american psycho]

the most annoying thing is that it would have been so easy to turn the pre crisis Lex Luthor into the post crisis one. All he needed to do was what people have already suggested, use the kryptonian tech to build an industrial empire, and somehow unleash braniac. completely new story with the same elements of superman returns just a few story changes and thats it. what was Singer's fascination with luthor? he was the villain 3 times!

 

[Pickle-El]

Smallville's Superman is exactly how an alien child would be, and feel.. it shows his loneliness, his holding back, his secrets... it shows the values he learns from his parents...

Singer's Superman isn't a real Superman - he's a stalker/peeper who abandons a woman for five years without telling her where's he's going. This is totally out of character. The ideas for the story came without them ever thinking them through properly. Terrible portrayal. Bring on Smallville. Season 5 is out soon! Yippee!

(Can anyone actually hear me laughing?)

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

[_Qwerty_]

the most annoying thing is that it would have been so easy to turn the pre crisis Lex Luthor into the post crisis one.

But who would want to do that?

 

[dpm07]

But who would want to do that?

I know I would definitely want to do that. I much prefer the corporate Lex of STAS/JL/JLU and L&C to the Pre-Crisis version. With the Post-Crisis version, you get both the scientist and the corporate tycoon.

 

[FanboyX_Returns]

I dont know if most of the ppl in this forum had the chance to watch "An evening with Kevin Smith, where he, at one point of the interview, talks about the development of a script for a possible new Superman movie.

I recall, at one point, he said they ( I assume DC ) gave him incredible access to the Superman DC archives so he could work ideas into the script.

My question is then: Do you think Singer or his script writers ever got into reading that stuff, or maybe they weren't allowed to?
Because if they did, that would obviously have majorly contributed to a great movie, but we all know that's not what happened.

I've decided to make a thread about this because no one cares to reply about this singular topic in the complaints thread, and it's not actually much of a complaint, really.

Post your thoughts.
Hope this thread is original enough to stay open.

Bryan Singer himself said that he didnt draw alot when writting this story from the comics, and mostly copied the donner movies, and the George Reeves show.

 

[Lex Luthor]

I know I would definitely want to do that. I much prefer the corporate Lex of STAS/JL/JLU and L&C to the Pre-Crisis version. With the Post-Crisis version, you get both the scientist and the corporate tycoon.

Agreed.

 

[_Qwerty_]

I know I would definitely want to do that. I much prefer the corporate Lex of STAS/JL/JLU and L&C to the Pre-Crisis version. With the Post-Crisis version, you get both the scientist and the corporate tycoon.

But businessmen are boring. It's the same old thing every time "I can do evil things because i'm rich and because I am rich I won't get in trouble". It got old in the 80's. I prefer Pre-Crisis Lex, the man who used his human ability- the mind, to go against an incredibly powerful superbeing. It's a lot more interesting if you see Lex performing these feats rather than seeing him throwing money at everything.

 

[dpm07]

But businessmen are boring. It's the same old thing every time "I can do evil things because i'm rich and because I am rich I won't get in trouble". It got old in the 80's. I prefer Pre-Crisis Lex, the man who used his human ability- the mind, to go against an incredibly powerful superbeing. It's a lot more interesting if you see Lex performing these feats rather than seeing him throwing money at everything.

That's just your opinion. The fact that there have been more interpretations of the business Lex on-screen is indicative of the fact that he is the one that is generally preferred.

See, when you have the business-Lex you can also have him as a scientist as well. It does work. The fact that you don't like it is just your opinion. Nothing more.

 

[_Qwerty_]

That's just your opinion. The fact that there have been more interpretations of the business Lex on-screen is indicative of the fact that he is the one that is generally preferred.

So post-crisis Lex Luthor is the one that has appeared in the media the most? But I thought you were against this movie because it was a 'rehash' and you wanted something new? In that case, wouldn't pre crisis Luthor be a breath of fresh air considering post-crisis Luthor has been done more times?

See, when you have the business-Lex you can also have him as a scientist as well. It does work. The fact that you don't like it is just your opinion. Nothing more.

I didn't say it was anything more than my opinion.

 

[dpm07]

[/font]So post-crisis Lex Luthor is the one that has appeared in the media the most? But I thought you were against this movie because it was a 'rehash' and you wanted something new? In that case, wouldn't pre crisis Luthor be a breath of fresh air considering post-crisis Luthor has been done more times?

Nope.

This rehash of the old film pretty much utilized the Pre-Crisis Lex. Apparently enough people weren't interested as evidenced by the box office returns.

People waited all these years for a Superman adaptation on received a fetish film from Singer based on the Donner film. Singer and his ego proved he was out of touch, and the sad testament to humanity, is that he doesn't even realize it. He blames the lack of success of the film on the sequel of POTC 2. It's a cop out on his end, when he just didn't deliver a great film. He gave us Superson, and Luthor's land scheme. The visuals were amazing, but it was all fluff and no stuff. He kept saying how "epic" this was going to be, and it turned out to be rather lackluster. If he wants to know what epic is, he needs to watch LOTR. That's epic. SR is just sad, boring, limp, lame, and dull, brought to us by Singer and his whack pack of fool writers. Raimi understood the source material and how to make a great Spiderman film, and Nolan did the same with Batman Begins. Singer made a film to massage his ego.

 

[Alonsovich]

[/FONT]So post-crisis Lex Luthor is the one that has appeared in the media the most? But I thought you were against this movie because it was a 'rehash' and you wanted something new? In that case, wouldn't pre crisis Luthor be a breath of fresh air considering post-crisis Luthor has been done more times?

Post crisis Luthor has NEVER been done on movies. Only in crappy TV series (with the exception of STAS). We have yet to see the true potential of that Luthor in a live action movie. The pre crisis Luthor on the other hand has been done THREE times in movies and it's potential is rather small. We've seen real estate plans already three times in the movies. Time for something else on the Superman movies. And combine him with some supervillains which we have never seen either.

EDIT: We haven't seen the pre-crisis either, as batman44 says. We've seen the Donner Luther three rimes, not the pre-crisis Luthor.

 

[Steelsheen]

are we still arguing about Pre vs Post Crisis Lex?

what's keeping you guys from thinking that the combination of both cant be done? heck JLU was on its way to successfully merging the two versions before the a-holes cancelled it.

 

[dpm07]

Post crisis Luthor has NEVER been done on movies. Only in crappy TV series (with the exception of STAS). We have yet to see the true potential of that Luthor in a live action movie. The pre crisis Luthor on the other hand has been done THREE times in movies and it's potential is rather small. We've seen real estate plans already three times in the movies. Time for something else on the Superman movies. And combine him with some supervillains which we have never seen either.

There you go.

Alonsovich basically said what I was trying to say. When I mentioned the media, I was referring primarily to the small screen, and Alonsovich clarified things more clearly. Thanks for doing this.

There hasn't been a Post-Crisis version of Lex brought to the big screen, and there hasn't been any of the rogues gallery of villains of Superman on the big screen either. There's no reason why we should have a film with Zod, when one can use Brainiac, Metallo, Parasite, Darkseid, Mongul, etc. Superman's got some good villains, and deserves more than a rehash of the original films.

 

[_Qwerty_]

Nope.

This rehash of the old film pretty much utilized the Pre-Crisis Lex. Apparently enough people weren't interested as evidenced by the box office returns.

If I used Box office returns to judge what movies I like i'd be missing out on some great films.

 

[batman44]

Post crisis Luthor has NEVER been done on movies. Only in crappy TV series (with the exception of STAS). We have yet to see the true potential of that Luthor in a live action movie. The pre crisis Luthor on the other hand has been done THREE times in movies and it's potential is rather small. We've seen real estate plans already three times in the movies. Time for something else on the Superman movies. And combine him with some supervillains which we have never seen either.

You know I wouldn't have mind that Singer had used pre-crisis Lex, (I prefer post-crisis much more). But the thing is Singer didn't use any comic version of Lex, he used Donners.

 

[Alonsovich]

You know I wouldn't have mind that Singer had used pre-crisis Lex, (I prefer post-crisis much more). But the thing is Singer didn't use any comic version of Lex, he used Donners.

Touché. We haven't seen the pre-crisis Luthor either...

 

[Kabuki_Jo]

The box office pretty much states the quality of this flick, Qwerty.

 

[BatB]

Well heres the thing though, you can know all the statistics and history of the characters usage; i.e. propaganda, religious symbolism and what not. But there is a big difference between knowing facts and knowing the character. Personnally I love Superman The Movie and I love Superman 2. But those movies were made in a different time. With different attitudes and ultimately in a different world. Things have changed in the past twenty years. And yes, Superman has indeed changed with them. But I think that Singer was just so immersed in the original that he really couldn't see beyond it. Ultimately haveing a hero who only sees the world in black and white isn't really going to work in a time when the world is nothing but shades of grey. People have a hard time acceoting it.

 

[GL1]

Hmmm...

I think it's obvious Singer made his decisions with a fair amount of influence from other sources... I can see how he may not have been swayed to mimic children's cartoons and low-selling comic arcs over a classic movie lauded by critics and fans alike (lauded is good, btw).

I think we can note that the ORIGIONAL complaint about SR was that the suit wasn't enough like the Donner version. He had to explain at comic con several times that the donner version, including bright colors and 'S' size just wouldn't work, and that the color scheme and symbol size were from the golden age comics. Fans said SR would suck because it wasn't enough like the Donner films. I know you guys remember this.

And while Lex was ostensibly going after land (which did make me roll my eyes a bit)... his overall motivation was at least different and, truth be told, he dressed and conducted himself like a businessman, like Post-Crisis Lex...

And, also to be fair, the biggest complaints about SR: The kid and Richard are drastic departures from the issues of the Donner film. On one hand we complain that it's not enough like the Donner film, then we say it's too much like the Donner film. It's really a bit crazy, I'm not sure it can be listend to, due to the inconsistent standard about what SR should have been... much less 'should' be.

That said, I never had a problem with any of the departures from Donner, the kid, the costume. No problems at all. I figured they were trying to do something different and new, and the new things they did were great.

They should not have had Lex obsessed with Land. They should not have made Richard a more empathizable hero than Clark. They should have had another action sequence in there (Braniac rasslin polar bears anyone?)

Meh... Perhaps it's just me... at least he didn't fly around the world spinning it backwards...

 

[Kabuki_Jo]

Hmmm...

I think it's obvious Singer made his decisions with a fair amount of influence from other sources... I can see how he may not have been swayed to mimic children's cartoons and low-selling comic arcs over a classic movie lauded by critics and fans alike (lauded is good, btw).

I think we can note that the ORIGIONAL complaint about SR was that the suit wasn't enough like the Donner version. He had to explain at comic con several times that the donner version, including bright colors and 'S' size just wouldn't work, and that the color scheme and symbol size were from the golden age comics. Fans said SR would suck because it wasn't enough like the Donner films. I know you guys remember this.

And while Lex was ostensibly going after land (which did make me roll my eyes a bit)... his overall motivation was at least different and, truth be told, he dressed and conducted himself like a businessman, like Post-Crisis Lex...

And, also to be fair, the biggest complaints about SR: The kid and Richard are drastic departures from the issues of the Donner film. On one hand we complain that it's not enough like the Donner film, then we say it's too much like the Donner film. It's really a bit crazy, I'm not sure it can be listend to, due to the inconsistent standard about what SR should have been... much less 'should' be.

That said, I never had a problem with any of the departures from Donner, the kid, the costume. No problems at all. I figured they were trying to do something different and new, and the new things they did were great.

They should not have had Lex obsessed with Land. They should not have made Richard a more empathizable hero than Clark. They should have had another action sequence in there (Braniac rasslin polar bears anyone?)

Meh... Perhaps it's just me... at least he didn't fly around the world spinning it backwards...

I must be really weird then, cause I find it easier to accept a Superman spinning the world backwards than a Superman that was deeply changed to his core.

 

[FanboyX_Returns]

Superman Returns was done in a similar style to the X-Men movies i belive.Certain things have been altered in order to appeal to non-comic fans,Superman is known all over the world.

Some things might not appeal to non-comic fans,so the idea of Lois with a child might appeal to the current times.While comic fans might not like this,the movie was ment to draw in all crowds.Comic and non-comic.

Yea, and like xmen 1 the movie SR was also boring as hell, and unlike X2 or X3 it had little to no action which would atleast helped to mask the bad writting, and sloppy directing.

Singer messed up the Xmen movies, and now he's doing the same to Superman.
If This first movie gets a sequel (which at this point would shock me!), and Singer is the director then expect that to be the last Superman movie maybe EVER!

Or atleast for 20 plus years, and or someone comes along in the next decade who like Nolan actually has a vision, and not just copied ideas from the Donner movies.

I hope the later happens cause I still wannt see a REAL BADASS Superman movie in Theaters like I did when I was a small child.

I got to see 5 of the 6 Star Wars movies, and I only saw Superman 3, and 4 in theaters, and 1, and 2 on tape.

So I saw SR after a year, and a half of bad buzz, and it just got worse from the last two parts, and after 17 years you would think that the WB would get this one right... Hope for better luck next time.

 

[The Kid]

What the...fans were saying it'd suck if it didn't copy the donner movies? Not from my experience. It was the other way around for months. Fans did not want to bring in teschmacher 2 or the land-obsessed game show host lex again for another round. Everyone was hoping Singer would use recent business man lex. Fans wanted a contemporary superman who couldn't turn back time and such or had much to do with donner's take on the character from decades ago besides a few cosmetic things like the suit and the crystals, which naturally refelect the comics as well. There's been better stories and villain plots since them. Why go back? It's really not necessary... I remember most were tearing their hair out when they learned of kitty being lex's bimbo sidekick. We gave singer a fair chance, viewed it with as much of an open mind as possible, some were biased and liked things before seeing it such as Jason, but the lack of quality in the film itself turned me off personally. I don't know about the rest here.

Also, I've seen no complaints about richard. Cyclop's cool. the kid's cool to me, he's a sidekick for superman. I always wanted him to have one. But I understand that it's one thing to do a batman begins like re-doing superman for a new generation, and another to not only continue an old franchise, but copy it as much as possible, while adding an illegitimate child into the story that'll really complicate everything for this first new movie in decades. It's a big change to some, like giving spidey a kid in spidey 3 or 4. It just isn't done... maybe not until the hero's long since faced his greatest challenges and finally settles down. It's way out of left field since not even the comics, non-elseworld anyway, have attempted to try this.

Someone said it wasn't superman's return, but instead it was Jason's arrival, and I believe unfortunately that that's overall how many see it. A kid is a big deal for superman and Jason will be a major focus for now and the future of superman. Meaning now it's a SuperMEN franchise or Superman and Son with focus split between them if there's another movie based on this vague history stuff. And maybe some don't like that. I'm interested in forgetting superman and moving on with Superman Beyond and the future adventures of Jason Kent White Lane.

 

[Matt]

Superman Returns was done in a similar style to the X-Men movies i belive.Certain things have been altered in order to appeal to non-comic fans,[/B]Superman is known all over the world.[/B]

Exactly, Superman is known all over the world. The X-men weren't. That is why the X-men needed to be/could be reinvented. Superman is a pop culture icon. He is world renowned, and loved throughout. He does not need a reinvention because he is already popular. Things like giving Lois a child and making Supes a peeping tom is why this movie didn't float with general audiences. They know who Superman is and they like who Superman is. He never needed changed.