Spider-Man 3 Why do you think Sam Raimi dislikes Venom and his origin story??

[Spider-Aziz]

Reposting my points I posted in another thread:


I gave more than "I don't like him", like a couple of moments explaining why he's a mediocre idiot assigning the blame in the wrong places.

"I got fired for writing a column on confessions of someone everyone thought was a killer and then Spider-Man caught the real killer after his arm got twisted by Daredevil, but I was deemed a fraud and got fired"

"Spider-Man, before I was fired, I had cancer, I blamed you"

"I defend the innocent, and auction the symbiote for charity by selling it to the highest bidder in gangsters auction. Great lethal protector there."

Among numerous idiotic moments.

Topher Grace is a great live action Venom, he was an improvement to the original idiot, and the only live action Venom we need.


Do I need to bring more highlights of his history to attention to showcase why he's dumb?

How about he kidnaps Peter's parents because they are innocent and should not be attached to the sins of Spider-Man? Terror and abduction for protection is anything less than idiotic, right?

I have my gripes about the design of Ock and Hammerhead, but they have good stories utilizing how they need to be as both planners and criminal masterminds and when facing someone as physically powerful as Spider-Man.
Something Brock lacks. I hate Carnage and even that one note jerk has better use than Brock ever had.

Symbiotes -and most of their hosts- suck.

 

[ehh]

Symbiotes are really awesome, and I hope to see them again on film soon.

The original incarnation of Venom in the comics was a good concept but never fully fleshed out. The version that made the character so popular really started in the 90's animated series. That whole 3 episode arc was so perfectly done and that's what should be used as inspiration for film. Just my thoughts.

 

[zeptron]

Symbiotes are really awesome, and I hope to see them again on film soon.

The original incarnation of Venom in the comics was a good concept but never fully fleshed out. The version that made the character so popular really started in the 90's animated series. That whole 3 episode arc was so perfectly done and that's what should be used as inspiration for film. Just my thoughts.

Well they already used some inspiration from the 90s cartoon by making Peter and Eddie rivals at the Bugle. If they were go that route again, it would basically be a rehash. If they bring in Venom again, I think they should do what Spectacular did and use the Ultimate storyline with Peter and Eddie being childhood friends. This way it would actually make things more personal for Peter to see his childhood friend become one of his worst foes.

 

[ehh]

But the childhood friend that comes out of Peter's past is basically Harry from TASM2. But I don't think most audiences will make that connection.

When referring to the 90's cartoon I just meant the way the story was told in it's 3 part act. The way Venom taunts and torments Peter wherever he goes, doesn't trigger his spider sense, and so on. I do think that the TSSM version is the perfect balance of Venom that could be used on screen, although I would hope that Peter would get the symbiote from space this time. Maybe in Avengers 3 or 4.

 

[TMC1982]

Why Hollywood won't make a Venom movie

 

[ehh]

With enough talent and creativity, a Venom movie can work. But it would need to happen under these circumstances:

1. Eddie Brock is introduced in a Spider-Man film where he does not become Venom
2. An entire film is devoted to Spider-Man acquiring the symbiote and fightign Venom

#2 could potentially be split into 2 films, where Spider-Man has the symbiote and uses it to fight another villain, and the next film is all about defeating Eddie Brock's Venom.

From there, they could potentially try to make a Venom solo film work, but it just makes more sense to see him return only as a villain, not an anti-hero. But if Marvel Studios/Feige gets involved, they can conjure up something cool.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Why Hollywood won't make a Venom movie

Agreed with all those reasons especially one about Venom being poor protagonist.

 

[Slade W]

Symbiotes are really awesome, and I hope to see them again on film soon.

The original incarnation of Venom in the comics was a good concept but never fully fleshed out. The version that made the character so popular really started in the 90's animated series. That whole 3 episode arc was so perfectly done and that's what should be used as inspiration for film. Just my thoughts.

I agree. If Venom is ever used, I hope the take from his appearance in the 90s cartoon. I hope Marvel use him and not Sony.

 

[ehh]

Yeah. If Sony goes with their own spin-off franchise without Spider-Man or the MCU, then they are going to fail.

 

[Venom75]

Being a huge Venom fanatic myself,I would LOVE to see him in another film. Done in the right way of course. Truthfully,I can see why a lot of you don't like him. Ever since the character was created he's really lacked any great motivation for hating Spider-man. Well,the symbiote has every right to hate Spider-man/Peter but Eddie,not so much. I loved what Todd McFarlene did when he first brought Venom to life. The character was pretty creepy and had a lot of potential. Then,when the 90's arrived and Venom became so popular Marvel basically just used him to sell comics. I remember a bit about that time. They would bring Venom in for a few issues,have him fight Spider-man,get defeated and then bring him back again a few months later and repeat the same formula. They never had Venom really do anything life changing to Spidey(like kill MJ,or expose his secret identity).
But I do think the potential is there for Venom to be a great movie villain,or a great villain in general. I loved what the Spectacular Spider-man cartoon did by making Eddie Peter's best friend,and then once he got the symbiote he really messed with Peter,even trying to expose spider-man to the public. I remember the comic series Venomrigins had some great ideas about Brock's life and what drives him. There's a lot of great backstory for Eddie and I think that over the last few years people have done a lot better(in both comics,tv and film)of giving Brock and Venom better motivations and backstory. I love and adore the symbiote storyline. Peter getting this symbiote and having it bring out his aggression and his darker side. I think the idea itself(of the symbiote)is original and has great dramatic potential. Done right,who wouldn't want to see that on the big screen.

 

[ehh]

I'm wondering about the whole Spider-Man/Sony spin-off situation and I'm thinking in terms of the Marvel Netflix shows.

They take place within the MCU but have very little ties to the Avengers and no involvement from Kevin Feige. What if Sony goes ahead and makes their spin-off movies, including Venom, that take place within the MCU? They don't impact the rest of the universe and exist within their own bubble, and Sony would be under the supervision of Feige/Marvel to ensure continuity and quality?

 

[GwensNeckBrace]

I think it's just because he grew up with the older era of Spider-Man, so he had more familiarity and appreciation with those villains than the newer villains.

 

[Herofan]

How about he kidnaps Peter's parents because they are innocent and should not be attached to the sins of Spider-Man?

I loved that kind of warped perceptions and thinking, made him a particularly unusual and entertaining villain (and though he was overused that, and Spider-Man saving his ex-wife, was a pretty good story and technique for him to turn from villain to anti-hero).

Though Raimi was most familiar with and fond of the early stories, I thought his Mary Jane and Harry reflected pretty well their stories and characterizations from the '80s and even early '90s.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

Though Raimi was most familiar with and fond of the early stories, I thought his Mary Jane and Harry reflected pretty well their stories and characterizations from the '80s and even early '90s.

This will draw hate, but I thought Harry was the best developed part of the third film. The butler sucks, but JUST focusing on Harry, they adopted "The Child Within" very well for the universe it was set in.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Venom is Marvel's answer to Bane effectively in the Spider-Man verse, once you get past the brutal strength and personal vengeance angle, there is very little to him as such, and as many are saying the 60's era provide so much more and Raimi's talents are more inclined to those that a 90's 'hard man' character.

 

[henzINNIT]

Well to be fair lots of directors are forced to work with story elements they're not especially fond of.

But it's their choice what to do next with what they're given.

Incredibly belated reply, but I think it's important to note that it was more complicated than Raimi simply being handed a character he didn't like. Venom was forced in late in the game. I can't say how late with any certainty, but you don't storyboard Vulture and line up an actor for nothing. Sony had someone write alternate scripts while Raimi was working on his, and somewhere down the road they were mashed together.

Including Venom meant introducing Brock, the Symbiote and even Gwen into the mix. Man, the film would have been so much leaner if it just had Vulture (Sandman's cellmate).

 

[Darepool]

Venom is Marvel's answer to Bane effectively in the Spider-Man verse

Other way around. And not really comparable anyway based on how the stories have evolved..

 

[SKSpawn]

Raimi really screwed the pooch, in my opinion, with Venom. If he doesn't like Venom, that's fine, but if the studio wanted the character in the film he should have either walked away or done a redraft of the script to properly incorporate the character. Instead, he just crammed everything together in a way that can only be seen as detrimental to the final product.

Honestly, things would've been a lot tighter and more focused to have removed Eddie Brock completely and had Harry become Venom. Although I hated that Sandman killed Uncle Ben, they could've told a neat twist on the existing story and had Peter team up with Marko to fight Venom at the end.

Or, yeah, just split it into two films and do it all properly, but this was a bit before Hollywood's big obsession with splitting films into two parts, if I remember right.

 

[Zantera]

I rewatched the trilogy again over the last few days and I'm actually surprisingly OK with how Eddie Brock was handled. My main problem is I feel like it would have been better to save him for the next film. So you would still have black suit Spidey in SM3 but have Venom's creation at the end setting him up as a villain in the next one, rather than just showing up for 10 minutes at the end in this.

 

[Herofan]

Venom probably could have been a lot better, the whole movie a lot better, if he didn't kidnap Mary Jane or any other innocent person (although he could make threatening innuendo) and instead simply pursue Spider-Man himself, really emphasize that he had been wronged and was simply pursuing justice albeit a kind the audience would perceive as warped. That would be a pretty different kind of climax than in the first two films.

 

[Venom75]

I don't think Sandman needed to be there. If the theme of the movie is forgiveness,then Eddie/Venom/symbiote and his anger towards Spider-man/Peter works that angle much better. With Sandman they actually had to create an angle for him to have to be forgiven by Peter(being Uncle Ben's killer). Venom and Harry Osborn didn't need that.