Superman Returns Why Don't Some Superman Fans Like Superman Returns?

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Certainly he possesses the requisite equipment

Unless this belief is made clear by the writers of SR, and it was not, we must use the standard that humans and "humanoids" are innately compatible procreators.

So Superman would have no reason to expect that his alien heritage should prohibit Lois' pregnancy.

IMO he has every reason to beleive this, whether he has the tools is not the debate, he is not human, Lois is, there is every reason to believe she couldnt carry his child IMO.

 

[chief103182]

How did you come to that conclusion? SR is a story set after Superman II, not a direct continuation of the same story.

So? That still means Zod came to Earth and almost took over the planet. Plus if Jason was conceived in the Fortress of Solitude in Superman II and he is 5 years old in SR, and Superman left the planet for 5 years, then it HAD to take place right after Superman II.

 

[Lighthouse]

Fiurst, we got to know Superman in the two first movies, this movie is based on them.

And then, we know Superman even more than in those two movies. We know now he sometimes feels alone even when he had hords of people cheering him for his amazing actions. We also know he feels sometimes overwhelmed by all those shouts claiming for his help. That he suffers for the consequences of his decisions (leaving Earth to discover possible traces of his roots). That he can risk Lois' life (and Jason's) because of a greater good. That he can become a father and still be Superman.

First of all, if its a vague sequel as you've said before, how does anyone whose never seen the first two connect with Superman in this film? If it was a continuation of a vague history, you shouldn't have to have seen the first two.

And I saw very little character development of Superman. The only thing I saw him sad about was Lois. His return to Earth and ramifications is barely explored at all. Where does it every show the he suffers the consequences of leaving Earth except for his relationship with Lois, which of course is going to happen if you don't tell her your going to leave. The idea that he is partially responsible for Lex being a free man, his relationship with Lex, never explored. The whole "Superman returning to a world thats moved on without him"? Never happened. Routh barely gets any of his own moments in the movie, except for actions scenes and the rooftop scene with Lois. Thats it. I think its a particullary shallow movie.

 

[Lighthouse]

It is a possibility that Superman didnt know he whether he could reproduce with a human or not though.

So that excuses his actions? His moral highground is that he didn't know if he could impregnate Lois? "Well I don't think I can impregnante Lois, so I think its okay to sleep with her. Then when I get some information about Krypton I can then leave without telling her, conscience free."

 

[afan]

I feel there is a difference between "magical" critters and ones from another planet in another solar system whose DNA is fundamentally different from people who reside on Earth.

Spock and B'elanna Torres?

 

[C. Lee]

Spock and B'elanna Torres?

Always figured....that far into the future, doctors can do some sort of genetic manipulation to produce offspring from two different planetary races.

 

[Lighthouse]

I feel there is a difference between "magical" critters and ones from another planet in another solar system whose DNA is fundamentally different from people who reside on Earth.

Seriously though, they are both humanoid lifeforms who look exactly alike in every way. He can breath their air and eat their food, which is why Jor-El sent him their in the first place. Superman should have had a pretty good indication that it was at least possible to impregnate Lois.

 

[Lighthouse]

Always figured....that far into the future, doctors can do some sort of genetic manipulation to produce offspring from two different planetary races.

Actually it had more to do with the fact that all of the humans and alien races on the show were descended from the same species. Can't remember which episode I saw that in.

 

[Shuley]

Superman Returns wasn't made all that well. I can't see why Superman can't fight someone like Darksied or something in the city as they punch each other through building and through the ground like they do in the JLA cartoons and comics.(forget the stupid airplane in Dodgers Stadium.)Lex Luther sucked in SR. They didn't show how smart and clever he really is...what's he doin on a boat with an annoying g/f? He should be inventing something,like some mind control device to erase superman's memory,or something to try and make himself as strong as superman is..something clever,not go to his fortress,take a crystal and then shove kryptonite in him and kick him while he's down. ZZZZzzzz That's why SR sucked to no end!! They didn't get it right!!

 

[afan]

IMO he has every reason to beleive this, whether he has the tools is not the debate, he is not human, Lois is, there is every reason to believe she couldnt carry his child IMO.

Name one, and not from opinion, but from what is purposefully presented in SR. Obviously since Jason is concieved Superman is quite capable of impregnating a human. You are arguing against the only fact, relating to the subject being discussed, present in SR.

That being said.....

Lacking any concrete statement in SR, we must surmise from appearances only, so consider if you will........

Kryptonians and humans are physically and functionally identical, right down to 10 fingers and 10 toes, with an opposable thumb, which by the way would probably be indicative of identical mathematics, and instrumentation. The exhaustive physical iterations would be indicative of identical evolutionary forces on Earth and Krypton.
It is not un-reasoning then to assume that these two planetray races who share a multitude of identical physical charecteristics, the result of duplicating evolutionary forces, would also be sexually compatible procreators.

In the face of the empirical evidence presented by the physical appearance of Terrans and Kryptonians any other assumption is ignoring the obvious.

 

[afan]

Always figured....that far into the future, doctors can do some sort of genetic manipulation to produce offspring from two different planetary races.

Gotta admit you can dance fast........

 

[C. Lee]

Seriously though, they are both humanoid lifeforms who look exactly alike in every way. He can breath their air and eat their food, which is why Jor-El sent him their in the first place. Superman should have had a pretty good indication that it was at least possible to impregnate Lois.

Yes....Kal-El "looks" like humans on the outside.....but he has different DNA, which makes him invulnerable, able to fly, shoot lasers from his eyes, etc.....

Actually it had more to do with the fact that all of the humans and alien races on the show were descended from the same species. Can't remember which episode I saw that in.

I'm bad with the names of episodes....but yeah, that was in ST:TNG. Picard and several other people from different planets are searching for an archeological artifact....and when they find it, it produces a hologram of aliens saying that seeded the galaxy. That's why I felt that it wouldn't be so hard for certain species to be able to manipulate genes and produce offspring.

Gotta admit you can dance fast........

I've actually had this discussion several times with other sci-fi geeks like me over the years.t:

 

[Cyrusbales]

I think that Superman thought his DNA wouldn't be compatiable with Lois, hence his disapearance and surprise of learning about jason.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Name one, and not from opinion, but from what is purposefully presented in SR. Obviously since Jason is concieved Superman is quite capable of impregnating a human. You are arguing against the only fact, relating to the subject being discussed, present in SR.

That being said.....

Lacking any concrete statement in SR, we must surmise from appearances only, so consider if you will........

Kryptonians and humans are physically and functionally identical, right down to 10 fingers and 10 toes, with an opposable thumb, which by the way would probably be indicative of identical mathematics, and instrumentation. The exhaustive physical iterations would be indicative of identical evolutionary forces on Earth and Krypton.
It is not un-reasoning then to assume that these two planetray races who share a multitude of identical physical charecteristics, the result of duplicating evolutionary forces, would also be sexually compatible procreators.

In the face of the empirical evidence presented by the physical appearance of Terrans and Kryptonians any other assumption is ignoring the obvious.

I dont see how it is, no matter what the similarities, they are two different species with different DNA. Humans will never be invulnerable, or have superpowers, just from being near a yellow sun, Kryptonians will. Appearance is nothing.

Plus, even in the comics, Superman has been known to question whether he can re-produce.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

So that excuses his actions? His moral highground is that he didn't know if he could impregnate Lois? "Well I don't think I can impregnante Lois, so I think its okay to sleep with her. Then when I get some information about Krypton I can then leave without telling her, conscience free."

Thats a whole different argument. I cant guarantee it, but, and i think you'll agree, if Superman had known about Lois being pregnant he wouldnt have left.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

So? That still means Zod came to Earth and almost took over the planet. Plus if Jason was conceived in the Fortress of Solitude in Superman II and he is 5 years old in SR, and Superman left the planet for 5 years, then it HAD to take place right after Superman II.

Singer has said numerous times that that scene is not in his continuity. In his continuity, Superman and Lois had a relatioship before he left for Krypton, the sex in the FOS has no bearing on SR.

 

[C. Lee]

That's the major problem....not so much that there is a child....but that if you want a new movie to tie in with an old movie, you have to have them actually compatible.....not leave it up to the individual to determine what part of the older movie fits into the new one.

 

[Agent 194]

I agree with a lot of elements of the above arguments, but refering to what one said about his character development,--and I know this puts me in the minority, but I don't really want that much character development with him....I just want him to be super. I never really needed to know a lot of what made him tick for me to like him as Superman. That seems to be something that came along later in the comics I read.

 

[superbaby]

Thats a whole different argument. I cant guarantee it, but, and i think you'll agree, if Superman had known about Lois being pregnant he wouldnt have left.

why?
this is really what he wanna know, to find out his own root. why he shouldn't leave if he knew lois was pregnant???
after all, he left his old mother alone for 5 years. she would have been dead and he would have never seen her again.

 

[C. Lee]

I agree with a lot of elements of the above arguments, but refering to what one said about his character development,--and I know this puts me in the minority, but I don't really want that much character development with him....I just want him to be super. I never really needed to know a lot of what made him tick for me to like him as Superman. That seems to be something that came along later in the comics I read.

I have to agree with this. I don't want to see Supes not affected by his surroundings or never change in some way......but to me, he doesn't have to have a lot of life changing moments. Those occured while he was growing up in Smallville.

 

[Agent 194]

Yes. The argument has been made many times how Superman, with his impervious hide, his squarness and what not, that he was a basically a one dimensional character. I'm fine with this. That's what I'd rather see. Not Dawson's Creek with French Riviera speedos and a cape.

 

[mego joe]

Lois and a million other Americans vanished a year ago with no trace, so he is missing Lois, the world is not doomed in any way at all, its just that he misses Lois, so again, like SR it is something personal he leaves for. Of course this turns all the other hero's against him, as they feel if he activates the orb responsible for the 'vanishing,' more people and possibly the world will dissappear. This leads to a fight with Wonder Woman that destroys the 'Fortress Of Solitude' in the arctic, hence why Superman had to find another one just after.

SO the context is quite different, he is actually leaving to go try and save Lois, his wife instead of ditching her?

Superman's motivation is these two stories, SR and "For Tomorrow" is quite different in respect to his actions towards Lois.

SO essentially, the other heroes take umbrage against the chance that he might make it worse rather than make it better? Is that correct?

I see the context and his actions to be quite different from what happens in the backstory to SR.

 

[mego joe]

His motivation is that he has to fix a problem that he caused... also people could have been killed.

What did he do to cause all the people to vanish?

 

[mego joe]

Fiurst, we got to know Superman in the two first movies, this movie is based on them.

And then, we know Superman even more than in those two movies. We know now he sometimes feels alone even when he had hords of people cheering him for his amazing actions. We also know he feels sometimes overwhelmed by all those shouts claiming for his help. That he suffers for the consequences of his decisions (leaving Earth to discover possible traces of his roots). That he can risk Lois' life (and Jason's) because of a greater good. That he can become a father and still be Superman.

I know that this topic had it's own thread a while ago, but I don't see Reeves's SUperman leaving Lois high and dry like the one in SR did. I know opinions on this differ, but I don't see that in the character as represented in the Donner films.

 

[mego joe]

Between two humans....yes.

Between a human and an alien from another world.....no.

But considering the fact that Superman looks just like a human, it would lead one to think it would be possible. Superman looks more like a human than two breeds of dogs look alike. THe real question is would SUperman risk it without being fully committed to Lois, and then there's the whole Larry Niven question. I think SUperman would investigate it further before risking harming Lois or risk conceiving a child he wasn't ready to care for. I think he would put Lois's safety and a possible child ahead of his own desire for sex.