Superman Returns Why Don't Some Superman Fans Like Superman Returns?

[mego joe]

I guess people have different perceptions over this. 'Cos I thought this was as much about Superman as the first two films. In many ways I felt more than I did as a child. Because it engaged my adult feelings as well as inner child. I grant you the first two films couldn't do that 'cos I was a child when I first saw them.

I thought it was more about the problems he created rather than about SUperman himself. The problems he created certainly say something about the character, but the story does tend to focus on the actions and reactions of Lois, Lex, Richard etc... Where as SUperman just kind of sleep walks through the scenes and says little and stares a lot.

I'll also point out the villain stole his crystals from the Fortress. Which is a form of revenge against, a then missing, Superman. Plus there was the actual revenge when he came back by getting beaten, stabbed and left for dead (when he fell in the water). Lois was in emotion turmoil when he came back and revealed himself. So they were reacting to Superman whether he was there or not (i.e. "Why the World Doesn't Need Superman"). And I'm not even mentioning what was happening with Superman himself.

Angeloz

I found that the LEx/ Crystals plot line moved so slowly it really wasn't interesting at all.

But you do make a point that I think I've echoed above and that it's focussed on reactions to what Superman has done or hasn't done and how he's affected others lives as opposed to being focussed on what Superman is actually doing.

Saving the plane is really just a way vehicle to get Lois to react to his return. There's noting significant except, 'he's back.' He could have just flown in and said, 'hey, I'm back.' ANd that would have served the purpose of the story. It just seems that Superman has a more passive role than active role in the film. Lex is actively trying to create mayhem. Lois is juggling a son, a job and now the return of the ex-boyfriend.

While SUperman SHOULD be struggling to regain his place in society, that aspect was pretty much edited out or dropped from the film. Instead, he tries to woo Lois back and in one scene convice her the world does need a SUperman, and essentially waits around until Lex launches his scheme and Lois gets in trouble, by actively pursuing a lead on the blackout. Superman just doesn't seem to have a really active role.

 

[Angeloz]

Can you tell me in the other films if he had an "active" role? Other than trying to get rid of nuclear bombs. It's a question 'cos I'm not sure if he did have one. He seemed to, from what I can generally remember, react to things. Whether it be crime, accident or disaster.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

Can you tell me in the other films if he had an "active" role? Other than trying to get rid of nuclear bombs. It's a question 'cos I'm not sure if he did have one. He seemed to, from what I can generally remember, react to things. Whether it be crime, accident or disaster.

Angeloz

Well, let's see....

In S:TM- the whole focus is on Superman...

He ACTIVELY chooses Metropolis and goes to get a job at the Planet, after reacting to Lois and the falling helicopter he GOES ON PATROL and stops some crimes and saves a cat from a tree and stops Air FOrce One from crashing. HE SLIPS Lois the note to set up his interview, HE suggests flying to test his top speed. Luthor actually reacts to SUperman's presence and contacts him, then Superman is very shall we say forceful in discovering Luthor's hideout. While drowning, Superman makes every effort possible to get Miss Tessmacher to remove the Kryptonite from his neck. At the end Superman chooses to defy Jor-El and turn back time.

To me the story seems to be based more around what SUperman chooses to do and what he does rather than other character's reaction to what Superman did/ didn't in what came before the film.

In SII....

He throws the nuclear weapon into space releasing the PZ Criminals unbeknownst to Superman. He actively reveals all to Lois after she figures out his secret. He chooses to depower(Defying Jor-El again.) He determines he must regain his powers after he discovers that the PZ criminals are wreaking havoc. After regaining his powers HE calls Zod out and engages the criminals. HE lures them away to the FOS and HE tricks them into being depowered. At the very end, HE lays the amnesia kiss on Lois to aleviate her pain and give her the chance at a life w/o him with someone else.


These two films you can tell someone about with SUperman being the focus. IMO, if you tell someone about SR, you start with "Superman comes back..." and Lois and Lex get the active roles after that as they do their own things in the film that SUperman then reacts to. Like I said above, the whole point of the plane scene is really about Lois's reaction. THat and it's a side effect of the crystals test of LEx's that caused the blackout. It's the lead LOIS follows that ends up getting her and Jason caputred. Storywise, it's about Lois and Lex and not about Superman. B/c the whole 'finding his place in the world' story line is all but gone, the plane sequence is more about Lois and Lex than Superman in terms of the plotline that we follow in the film.


Another way of explaining it is that in STM and SII, what SUperman does moves the story along more than any other character. In SR, what Lois and Lex do move the story along more than SUperman.

 

[Angeloz]

Well, let's see....

In S:TM- the whole focus is on Superman...

He ACTIVELY chooses Metropolis and goes to get a job at the Planet, after reacting to Lois and the falling helicopter he GOES ON PATROL and stops some crimes and saves a cat from a tree and stops Air FOrce One from crashing. HE SLIPS Lois the note to set up his interview, HE suggests flying to test his top speed. Luthor actually reacts to SUperman's presence and contacts him, then Superman is very shall we say forceful in discovering Luthor's hideout. While drowning, Superman makes every effort possible to get Miss Tessmacher to remove the Kryptonite from his neck. At the end Superman chooses to defy Jor-El and turn back time.

I could point out as you said he reacts to the helicopter accident. It's not a criticism as it's what he does. Something happens and he reacts to it. He patrols in "Superman Returns" as well as doing a lot of rescues that we see on television too. As for the hideout in the original film first Luthor contacts him then he finds the hideout. Again reacting. He also chooses to defy Jor-El reacting to Lois's death. Just some thoughts.

To me the story seems to be based more around what SUperman chooses to do and what he does rather than other character's reaction to what Superman did/ didn't in what came before the film.

As I said I think similar things happen in the films. Usually disaster occurs whether accident or not and he reacts to that. It also makes sense that other characters react to him. Again it happened in the earlier films. Lois got romantic thoughts about him. Lex sprung the hideout trap that nearly killed him (with the kryptonite).

In SII....

He throws the nuclear weapon into space releasing the PZ Criminals unbeknownst to Superman. He actively reveals all to Lois after she figures out his secret. He chooses to depower(Defying Jor-El again.) He determines he must regain his powers after he discovers that the PZ criminals are wreaking havoc. After regaining his powers HE calls Zod out and engages the criminals. HE lures them away to the FOS and HE tricks them into being depowered. At the very end, HE lays the amnesia kiss on Lois to aleviate her pain and give her the chance at a life w/o him with someone else.

The nuclear weapon was him reacting to an imminent threat. Him losing his powers was him reacting to Jor-El or Lara telling him he must choose. There was a third option - both his powers and a relationship. Him getting them back and facing Zod was also reacting to what had happened. I grant you he could of chosen to accept them ruling the planet. But he wouldn't be who he is if he did. I can see the amnesia kiss in a good light. But now I'm older it has other connotations (I'll admit I ignore them watching the film).

These two films you can tell someone about with SUperman being the focus. IMO, if you tell someone about SR, you start with "Superman comes back..." and Lois and Lex get the active roles after that as they do their own things in the film that SUperman then reacts to. Like I said above, the whole point of the plane scene is really about Lois's reaction. THat and it's a side effect of the crystals test of LEx's that caused the blackout. It's the lead LOIS follows that ends up getting her and Jason caputred. Storywise, it's about Lois and Lex and not about Superman. B/c the whole 'finding his place in the world' story line is all but gone, the plane sequence is more about Lois and Lex than Superman in terms of the plotline that we follow in the film.

I thought the point of the plane scene was Superman was back. She reacted to that and so did the populace. I'll point out he reacted to the crowds cheering. I thought the whole point of what Lex and Lois were doing was to bring about his heroics. He can't save people if nothing happens.

Another way of explaining it is that in STM and SII, what SUperman does moves the story along more than any other character. In SR, what Lois and Lex do move the story along more than SUperman.

He causes the helicopter disaster? The nuclear bomb plots in the first two films? Ironically he does cause the rooftop/balcony scenes in the first film as well as "Superman Returns". Superman is more of a reactive character because that's what he does. A disaster occurs and he reacts. What I liked was in "Superman Returns" was it was about his feelings and him finding that he wasn't alone. Also things weren't undone like in the first two films. By the way I like all three films. I love at least one version of each.

Angeloz

 

[KENSEI]

Plain and simple it made Soups look like a Deadbeat dad, loser of a super hero. And he 's not. He the epitome of what a super hero should be in every aspect. Brave, Couragous, Dashing I could go on.

 

[mego joe]

I could point out as you said he reacts to the helicopter accident. It's not a criticism as it's what he does. Something happens and he reacts to it. He patrols in "Superman Returns" as well as doing a lot of rescues that we see on television too. As for the hideout in the original film first Luthor contacts him then he finds the hideout. Again reacting. He also chooses to defy Jor-El reacting to Lois's death. Just some thoughts.



As I said I think similar things happen in the films. Usually disaster occurs whether accident or not and he reacts to that. It also makes sense that other characters react to him. Again it happened in the earlier films. Lois got romantic thoughts about him. Lex sprung the hideout trap that nearly killed him (with the kryptonite).



The nuclear weapon was him reacting to an imminent threat. Him losing his powers was him reacting to Jor-El or Lara telling him he must choose. There was a third option - both his powers and a relationship. Him getting them back and facing Zod was also reacting to what had happened. I grant you he could of chosen to accept them ruling the planet. But he wouldn't be who he is if he did. I can see the amnesia kiss in a good light. But now I'm older it has other connotations (I'll admit I ignore them watching the film).



I thought the point of the plane scene was Superman was back. She reacted to that and so did the populace. I'll point out he reacted to the crowds cheering. I thought the whole point of what Lex and Lois were doing was to bring about his heroics. He can't save people if nothing happens.



He causes the helicopter disaster? The nuclear bomb plots in the first two films? Ironically he does cause the rooftop/balcony scenes in the first film as well as "Superman Returns". Superman is more of a reactive character because that's what he does. A disaster occurs and he reacts. What I liked was in "Superman Returns" was it was about his feelings and him finding that he wasn't alone. Also things weren't undone like in the first two films. By the way I like all three films. I love at least one version of each.

Angeloz

CLearly we're looking at two sides of the same coin from different perspective. In a nushell. STM and SII focus on Superman while Superman feels like 'just another character' in SR, to me. STM and SII are about SUperman, while SR feels like it's about the problems/ situation SUperman has created and how Lois and Lex react to them.

 

[Steve Rogers]

CLearly we're looking at two sides of the same coin from different perspective. In a nushell. STM and SII focus on Superman while Superman feels like 'just another character' in SR, to me. STM and SII are about SUperman, while SR feels like it's about the problems/ situation SUperman has created and how Lois and Lex react to them.

Yup. And that is the difference between character driven films and plot driven films. Plot driven films usually suck.

 

[buggs0268]

Rather than everyone going, "You're wrong, it's a rehash," why not convince me? Back up your opinons someone. I'm sorry, I just don't see it as a rehash. I mean, I get where you are coming from: The hero comes to Earth, goes to Metropolis, meanwhile Lex is doing a real estate scheme...but if that's all yo have to go on, I still say it is no rehash. I'm talking theme and characteization here. As I said, maybe it was Singer's intent to rehash the original, but that doesn't mean he did it.

1.) He filmed Clark growing up scenes which were already covered in 1 but changed them as well so that they didn't jive with one, but still used the same designs.

2.) Same actor for Johnathon Kent-Glenn Ford (even though the pics of him were deleted).

3.) Same FOS, but different thanks to CGI.

4. Marlon Brando (dead at the time) playing Jor-El again delivering the same lines from takes done for STM.

5. Kitty is same character as Miss Tesmacher, although Tesmacher was smater than Kitty.

6. Superman saves plane with Lois on it (STM saves helicopter with Lois on it) as first act as Superman.

7. Many pages of dialog lifted and used as if they were originally wrote for this movie.

8. Kryptonite has to be from Addis Ababa.

9. Superman thrown into the water to drown by Lex.

10. Superman night flight with Lois. Superman meeting her on Balcony. Superman giving her crap about smoking.

A lot more things, but this time, Superman barely says anything, is down and dreery, and is a stalker.

Also is a sequel to Superman 2, but the time when Superman 1 and 2 happened is changed. In STM and S2, STM takes place in 1977 (locked in as release, also referencing president with Peanuts, which is direct reference to Carter being President.) S2 originally takes place right after STM and was supposed to be released Summer 1979 or Winter 1979. S2 Donner cut takes place directly after. S2 Lester Cut a few years later.

In SR continuity, STM takes place in the 70's leading to 1996. S2 would take place in 2000/2001 as he leaves before Lois is showing signs, and the kid was born in 2001 (He is 5).

So in SR continuity, S2 happens 5 years after STM. However, Singer has decided to ignore some things that have happened in STM and S2, and redo others. Example-Clark does not need to wear glasses as a kid in STM. In the comics, he only starts wearing glasses after becoming Superboy to cover his identity. In SR, Clark wears glasses until some of his powers show up. So no one really knows.

 

[Angeloz]

I can't be bothered arguing. Except "Superman: The Movie" was set in 1978. The reason I say this is Jor-El mentions Clark is 18 at one point then it's 12 years later. Plus Lex says Krypton was destroyed in 1948. So 1948 + ( 18+12= ) 30 = 1978.

Angeloz

 

[buggs0268]

One of my friends was in my office and had never seen SR, but heard bad things about it not just from me. I put it in and I noticed in the FOS scene that Jor El does say again that he "Has been dead for many thousand of your years" so in SR continuity it took him thousands of years to get to earth, so Einsteins Theory of Relativity does apply to it's continuity as well. So him going there and coming back in 5 years goes directly against a line Jor El says in the movie, and the rules it established in the film. If Singer didn't mean it to be there, he would have took it out.

Yes, STM takes place in 1978, obviously,it was released then. SR takes place in our time, but changes the times when the events of STM and S2 happened. Lex knowing how to use the FOS controls, and Kitty's line about "It seems like you have been here before" confirms he was in the FOS in S2. in SR continuity.

Also, anyone who says that muscle suit that Brandon wore didn't add much size to him needs to stop.

Looks like that adds a lot of size. Especially when you look at this pic

I just can't believe they messed up so badly.

 

[dr collossus]

Lmfao!!!!

 

[dr collossus]

I'm sick of being diplomatic. Superman Returns sucked. If you liked it you're an idiot.

 

[Porygon]

I'm sick of being diplomatic. Superman Returns sucked. If you liked it you're an idiot.

Well then I guess you better shut up. Unless you like being a troll.

 

[El Payaso]

At the very end, HE lays the amnesia kiss on Lois to aleviate her pain and give her the chance at a life w/o him with someone else.

And once again I have to ask, how is she prepared to be without him and with someone else if she doesn't even know she and Superman can't be together and in fact, we see her at the end of the movie talking about Superman as a schoolgirl in love, just as she was at the beginning of the movie.

If anything, Superman condemned her to be in love with him forever and took her chance to overcome his break-up with Superman as the mature woman she is, as we all have to do at some point of our lives.

I'm sick

Right you are, Mr. Troll

 

[Super Kal]

well, there's the proof of the padded suit

 

[Nightwing1977]

I'm sick of being diplomatic. Superman Returns sucked. If you liked it you're an idiot.

I guess you're an idiot for hating it then. Kettle meet pot.

 

[Super Kal]

yeah, let's try and keep the insults down to a minimum in here

 

[Angeloz]

Must people insult one another? I'm assuming a bad day dr collossus.

Edited to add: you beat me to it kakarot069. I missed seeing your post until after I'd typed this.

Angeloz

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Plain and simple it made Soups look like a Deadbeat dad, loser of a super hero. And he 's not. He the epitome of what a super hero should be in every aspect. Brave, Couragous, Dashing I could go on.

Did you not think he was brave and couragous for going back to NK despite the fact he was pretty sure he was going to die?

Or did you not find it heroic that, when given the choice between saving Lois and saving Metropolis, he put his own feelings aside and did the right thing by going back to Metropolis?

Just because he made a few human errors (he was raised by humans you know) doesnt make him less brave or heroic IMO.

I'm sick of being diplomatic. Superman Returns sucked. If you liked it you're an idiot.

Well done, you have just rid yourself of all credibility and respect in one sentence.

 

[DieSmiling]

I'm sick of being diplomatic. Superman Returns sucked. If you liked it you're an idiot.

According to rotten tomatoes 3 out of 4 people who saw the movie liked it. I guess the three are all idiots and the one knows what he's talking about...

What a moron.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

According to rotten tomatoes 3 out of 4 people who saw the movie liked it. I guess the three are all idiots and the one knows what he's talking about...

What a moron.

Well pointed out, there are plenty of people who like SR, especially on this board were it always performs well in 'best of' polls.

Some people who didnt like the movie just cant accept that.

 

[mojo-x]

Since when was the Daily Planet nothing but a tabloid news paper. They had a massive blackout which shut down all electronic devisees and all they care about is Superman’s return. I think his return should be headline news but it should not be the only news they cover.

 

[mojo-x]

Something else that bothers me is if the Fortress of Solitude is suppose to have all this advance technologies and weapons, where are they? I mean Lex just walks right into it and a dead Barndo gives him the secrets to the universe. If the technology is so advance and powerful, wouldn’t they use some kind of restriction? I mean where are the defensives where’s the alarm. So Superman just leaves all this unprotected for his enemies to use against him. Sorry I do not see how anyone can like this movie
IMO this was the most disappointing comic book movie ever.

 

[El Payaso]

In SR, what Lois and Lex do move the story along more than SUperman.

I thought he went to Krypton without saying good-bye? And he impregnated Lois? Now, of course what the villiain does moves the action. Always. In the good movies I mean.

 

[buggs0268]

Something else that bothers me is if the Fortress of Solitude is suppose to have all this advance technologies and weapons, where are they? I mean Lex just walks right into it and a dead Barndo gives him the secrets to the universe. If the technology is so advance and powerful, wouldn’t they use some kind of restriction? I mean where are the defensives where’s the alarm. So Superman just leaves all this unprotected for his enemies to use against him. Sorry I do not see how anyone can like this movie
IMO this was the most disappointing comic book movie ever.

Another plot hole. Only thing is that it was done in Donner's and Lester's version of Superman 2 is the only reason I let it go. But in Donner's S2, he does put up a force field later on.