The Dark Knight Why getting tone and feel right is more important than detail accuracy...

I'm still trying to figure out why psychotic and creepy are the words used to describe Joker when I know he would think himself above being a common psycho or street creep in the subway. He's just the Joker.

Joker is cuckoo for cocoa puffs. He lives in a world that is uniquely his own. How he views himself is not based on a sane society's common perceptions. But, I think you're right. He does believe he is the cream of the crop. I think you could find a moment or two in the franchise where Batman, Gordon, Robin, other equally deranged villains, etc. say hes nothing more than a common criminal or psycho. Much of the time, perhaps most, his enemies have also viewed him as exceptional. And I'd think many of his victims would vouch for his creepiness, if he were to let any survive.
 
I'm still trying to figure out why psychotic and creepy are the words used to describe Joker when I know he would think himself above being a common psycho or street creep in the subway. He's just the Joker.

981109-1.jpg

That picture looks just like Adrien Brody.
 
What i'm wondering is...why couldnt we have...I dunno...just throwing this out there...both a joker that is actually faithful to the comics and something that looks scary?

Thats the problem with many people on both sides...you act like its either or.

what you hit on earlier with ceaser and tom lee jones...you realize that, they too fit their respective tones perfectly? Of course no one's gonna use Romero's Joker today....Romero's Joker only works because the TV show purposely made the characters look like jokes....which is probably why they let romero keep his mustache on even with the white paint on him. O Neil, Engleheart, etc all took the classic look and fit them into their tones. They didnt need Joker looking like some Edward Scissorhands reject to make their own mark on the clown prince of crime.

Most didnt have a problem with Jack Nicholson as Joker because...he actually looked like the joker, short and fatness aside. The face from the comics was translated to screen, even with the perma laugh. They managed to fit burtons tone of a screwball world and the comics at the same time. Same with Batman's outfit. With the molded rubber, its essentially the neal adams costume except in all black. I dont agree that fans wouldve freaked out...at least not in the way you think. Hearing about a black suit, yes...but seeing it...like many did when WB released that teaser...people wouldve shut up immediately, because the suit looks like the comics and fit the tone of the movie.

People didnt like the SR suit because it took the bright, shiny colors of Superman, and made them muddled and dark, and they looked horrible put together. At least Batmans a dark character...you understood why his suit was made darker. With Superman, it seemed very unnecessary, and frankly, the suit looked horrible in the first picture.

Sorry, but people dont like this pic because they crapped all over the joker look. Even though nolan disappointed the hell out of me with Scarecrow, at least he had some semblance of the comics, especially at the end of the movie. At least Movie Ra's Al Ghul looked somewhat like the comic Ras Al Ghul. But Joker? He looks like one the comic joker's sick lackey's that joker would throw in a vat of acid for no reason.

Now, I know many Nolanites are, as they usually do, completely spit on the comics and praise whatever the hell nolan does, but realize that fitting the tone and being actually faithful to the over all look of the character are not mutually exclusive ideas. If Spider-Man, Iron Man, and Chris Reeve's superman could do it, so can joker.
Quoted for emphasis. I ain't letting this great post get lost in past pages. :o :up:
 
Great post by the OP. As far as I'm concerned, Nolan can take any liberties he wants and deviate as much from the comics as he wants if it will make the movie better. Batman Begins wasn't good because it was faithful to anything. It was just a very well made movie. If the comics didn't even exist Batman Begins would be just as good.
 
Great post by the OP. As far as I'm concerned, Nolan can take any liberties he wants and deviate as much from the comics as he wants if it will make the movie better. Batman Begins wasn't good because it was faithful to anything. It was just a very well made movie. If the comics didn't even exist Batman Begins would be just as good.

No offense, but posts like this are exactly the problem.

BB owes ALOT to the Batman comics...like 90% of its plot...and characterizations...and Design...and well....the whole freaking movie...
 
Quoted for emphasis. I ain't letting this great post get lost in past pages. :o :up:

thank you...my problem has always been that, since the dawn of time, these "Fanboys are nitpicking" type posts never seem to get why fanboys are pissed about visual details...
 
I know comics are a visual and iconic media, but it´s also true that a big part of the reason why these characters have lasted so long is that they´re flexible, you can reinterpret them in different ways and they still keep an essence. A lot of things that are now celebrated as iconic were blasphemy when they were introduced. A lot of equally ironic comments were made on The Tumbler, for instance, and it still won most people ever, regardless of the details thing. The lips, like I said, are to evoke a clown´s look, they tend to do those augmented, exaggerated lips.

the point many have brought up is that there is simply no reason why he has to be a mutilated freak,The Joker's actions and characterization make him creepy not his look,his look is supposed to an extent bely the pshcyo underneath,what Nolan has done is create something akin to a slasher movie villain

Well, you know me and you know I call things as I see them, of course I know there are those who may be "sheepy" fanboys, but nobody will convince me there´s good reason for some of the intense hatred I seen here other than "I´m used to an image of The Joker and I won´t accept anything else", which is actually okay, kinda, only people look for arguments to say that this doesn´t work regardless of that and that defenders of it are wrong, that simply don´t stick. I still haven´t seen a single good argument that puts down this picture, and people have gone as far as saying absurd things like "Joker´s not supposed to look crazy and psychotic".

I still haven't seen a single good argument for why The Joker needs to be a mutilated freak instead of having the chemical smile,the realism stuff has lost all credibility nowadays.They could easily make a Joker with a more traditional look and still make him creepy and menacing
As i said above he's supposed to look crazy not grotesque and like the victim of torture.

I actually think the choice of look is to get as far away from Nicholson's iconic Joker as possible to avoid comparisons as much as possible,as it wouldn't turn out favourable from a critical standpoint
 
I found it ironically funny that Begins was so accessible to many folks who really weren't into Batman as a comic character. My mother's boyfriend for instance, he's in his mid-sixties, doesn't really like sci-fi or fantasy movies, but when he saw Begins, he inquired about how much the dvd cost. It's one of his favorite movies. It's a great film whether your into Batman or not. I have high hopes for TDK. For me personally, I hope the story is engaging and well crafted. The visual and cosmetic details aren't so important to me, but obviously it should be entertaining. When I first saw Ledger's Joker pic I really didn't know what to think. As long as it fits the story, and as long as the story has that true Batman vibe I'm looking for, I'll be happy.

I promised my son I would take him to see Spiderman 3 and I did. He's nine, and of course he loved it. I found myself bored. It didn't pull me in. That's the difference between the Spidey series and the Nolan Batman. I find it more intellectually satisfying. So I think and *hope* with Nolan's Joker we may get a real epic Batman movie.
 
I found it ironically funny that Begins was so accessible to many folks who really weren't into Batman as a comic character. My mother's boyfriend for instance, he's in his mid-sixties, doesn't really like sci-fi or fantasy movies, but when he saw Begins, he inquired about how much the dvd cost. It's one of his favorite movies. It's a great film whether your into Batman or not. I have high hopes for TDK. For me personally, I hope the story is engaging and well crafted. The visual and cosmetic details aren't so important to me, but obviously it should be entertaining. When I first saw Ledger's Joker pic I really didn't know what to think. As long as it fits the story, and as long as the story has that true Batman vibe I'm looking for, I'll be happy.

I promised my son I would take him to see Spiderman 3 and I did. He's nine, and of course he loved it. I found myself bored. It didn't pull me in. That's the difference between the Spidey series and the Nolan Batman. I find it more intellectually satisfying. So I think and *hope* with Nolan's Joker we may get a real epic Batman movie.

Seeing a movie as an an art form different from comics doesn't seem like a popular belief on sites full of comic fans, so kudos. Moving pages seem to be preferred. Pure practicality and a director's style demand differences. Thats why studios hire specific directors to make movies. They think their style and story will please the public and make them money.
 
I still haven't seen a single good argument for why The Joker needs to be a mutilated freak instead of having the chemical smile,the realism stuff has lost all credibility nowadays.

Don't you think the reason will be explored in the movie though? knowing what we know of story details it's doubtful it will just suddenly appear to look edgy or anything. I'm guessing Nolan wants to evolve the Joker beyond what audiences already know of him, to help flesh out his character. It doesn't necessarily have to be about making him more 'realistic' just for realisms sake.

the point many have brought up is that there is simply no reason why he has to be a mutilated freak.... As i said above he's supposed to look crazy not grotesque and like the victim of torture.
His traditional look will most likely still be there though. And then whatever happens after the scarring can actually demonstrate that the Joker doesn't want too look grotesque, he wants to be a circus act. It's probably a way of addressing everything that us fanboys already know about the Joker, but more vividly for audiences who don't really have a clue. In a way it could actually help tell a Joker origin story of sorts, starting out as a crazed bank robber (already with bleached face and everything, a kind of half-Joker) and then taking him to a much weirder extreme.
 
You should replace the Joker's name with Scare Crow in your post. That's the villain who's supposed to strike fear in his victims.

Joker's supposed to seem harmless and then he shoots you and laughs about it.

For every picture in which he looks creepy or exagerrated there are a million more where he looks like a happy :woot: grinning goof ball.

IF this is true, why does everyone praise the Joker in Dead End when he looks like a cross-dressing he/she goblin ?
A long nose, long chin, bushy eyebrows, neon green eyes ....
Didnt even look human -- at all.
 
IF this is true, why does everyone praise the Joker in Dead End when he looks like a cross-dressing he/she goblin ?
A long nose, long chin, bushy eyebrows, neon green eyes ....
Didnt even look human -- at all.

yeah that was over the top. I don't remember people being overly happy with the Joker side of that fan film. Most of the praise was on how it proved we didn't need to keep seeing batman wear a big clunky rubber suit in the movies. Beyond that, it was just a fun fanfilm, not the end all be all of anything.
 
the point many have brought up is that there is simply no reason why he has to be a mutilated freak,The Joker's actions and characterization make him creepy not his look,his look is supposed to an extent bely the pshcyo underneath,what Nolan has done is create something akin to a slasher movie villain

I still haven't seen a single good argument for why The Joker needs to be a mutilated freak instead of having the chemical smile,the realism stuff has lost all credibility nowadays.They could easily make a Joker with a more traditional look and still make him creepy and menacing.
As i said above he's supposed to look crazy not grotesque and like the victim of torture.

I actually think the choice of look is to get as far away from Nicholson's iconic Joker as possible to avoid comparisons as much as possible,as it wouldn't turn out favourable from a critical standpoint

Its not about "needing" to look a freak. Well, it kind of is, but I'll get to that in a second. Its about needing to balance a few things. Its about the manner in which Joker obtains the smile in most comics not fitting with this director. Rob Zombie wouldn't make a John Hughes film and Nolan isn't going to make chemicals the cause of "that" smile. Of course thats hyperbole but I'm making a point. This recent image, this manner of obtaining the smile, is most fitting taking into account the world Nolan has created and the way the smile is shown in the comics.

1.) The smile in the comics is beyond human. I can grab the calipers.

2.) Translating that in some manner to film is essential to the character

3.) Its unfitting for Nolan's world to accept a chemical bath producing anything resembling the larger than life symmetrical smile from the comics.

It reasons out.

I can give you a bit more, from another thread, if you need some precedents from BB showing Nolan's style to be practical.

And I believe your last paragraph does mention a part of Nolan's reasoning. I think not only does repeating the chemical smile Joker not fit here, but any comparison of a Jack Nicholson performance, regardless of the costume, against a Heath Ledger performance is a losing prospect for Nolan.

We really could just be talking about different means to an end. Maybe it heals up a bit further, its not as prominent as it seems in this pic, it becomes mostly just Ledger's smile, or he gets plastic surgery like in 89. Maybe it will look exactly as you fear.
 
One of the things that sometimes annoys me with part of the comics fandom is how much people tend to obssess with accuracy to details. They want things to be EXACTLY like the comics, even given that it´s impossible to begin with. That´s especially true to characters´ looks, and sometimes even relatively small changes - am I the only one who sees that the Superman Returns suit is still 90% an accurate to comics Superman suit? - can cause quite a stir. That comes with some distortions of priorities, such as people giving more value to details accuracy than the look giving you the right tone and feel of the character.

Let´s see a look that can be considered pretty "accurate". In theory, Cesar Romero´s Joker is not only pretty accurate to the comics of his period, but even close to the modern comics look: the bright red lips are there, the chalk-white skin, the green hair, it could even be said it´s closer than Jack Nicholson´s look - hey, it has no perma-smile! But could a modern interpretation of Joker look just like Romero and still work? No. Because in spirte of those details, what Romero´s Joker gives you is a campy clown, which of course is what Joker was back in the day, but is totally inconsistent with the psychotic Joker of Bill Finger and Bob Kane, Dennis O´Neil and Neal Adams, Steve Englehart and Marshall Rogers, Alan Moore and Brian Bolland, etc.

We don´t even need to go that far: In theory, Two-Face´s makeup in Batman Forever is accurate. Yeah, if you look you can even find pinkish versions of the acid-burned half in comics. What was the real problem with Two-Face? He was portrayed as a cackling, jumpy, campy villain instead of the dark and tragic character from the comics.

Now, I´m sure if there was Internet back in 89, a lot of fans would have made tons of noise against Batman wearing black instead of blue and gray: he had been wearing light blue and gray suit for decades in comics, even in the darker O´Neil/Englehart ones - and I´m not even gonna get into the rubber armor thing or the absence of briefs, etc. If you wanna really nitpick it, even Joker´s look wasn´t 100% right. Nicholson was chubby while comics Joker is notoriously skinny, not to mention the perennial smile. Accurate it wasn´t. But in the end of the day, it worked, why? Cuz the tone and feel were right. Batman is supposed to look dark, creepy, stealthy, mysterious. And Joker, while still with a good deal of camp in him, was also the homicidal maniac from comics. It´s the purpose of the look, not the details.

People´s initial reaction to the new Joker isn´t too different from what it´d have been, there was Internet in 89, to Batman´s black suit - hey, in theory it´s a more radical change than anything done to Superman´s suit in SR! And it´s also not too different from what the recent reaction was to, say, The Tumbler in Batman Begins, not the traditional sports car with fins from most comics incarnations.

And that´s why I´m not shaken by all those negative comments against Joker´s look. The look may not be "comics-accurate" - or it is, you just have to look at the right comics -, but the tone is right. The Joker I love from comics looks like a creepy psychotic distortion of a clown´s look, and that´s the concept here as well, details aside. Okay, it´d have probably helped if he was smiling in the picture, but I remember the first pics we saw of The Tumbler and Batman´s suit in BB didn´t exactly do them justice either. The clever, anarchic and unusual way that the image was revealed to us, however, was brilliantly Joker-like. They know the character. There will be plenty of time for people to see that there´s much more to The Joker than clean white makeup and neat red lips, and Nolan and his people know it.

I AM NOW AN ULTIMATE FAN OF ULTIMATEFAN !!
icon10.gif


... also lets not forget the whole twist that it was really the Joker who killed Bruce Wayne's parents !!
 
IF this is true, why does everyone praise the Joker in Dead End when he looks like a cross-dressing he/she goblin ?
A long nose, long chin, bushy eyebrows, neon green eyes ....
Didnt even look human -- at all.

Are you kidding? That's the one thing everyone hated about Dead End. The Joker looked like a skinny Penguin with caterpillar brows. You want to see a good fanfilm Joker go watch Patient J.
 
Are you kidding? That's the one thing everyone hated about Dead End. The Joker looked like a skinny Penguin with caterpillar brows. You want to see a good fanfilm Joker go watch Patient J.

Thank you for clearing that up, because I was under the impression the majority loved that Joker !

And I saw Patient J and I loved it ( that guy who plays the Joker requested to add me on Myspace and I felt so honoured, haha ).
 
What i'm wondering is...why couldnt we have...I dunno...just throwing this out there...both a joker that is actually faithful to the comics and something that looks scary?

Thats the problem with many people on both sides...you act like its either or.

what you hit on earlier with ceaser and tom lee jones...you realize that, they too fit their respective tones perfectly? Of course no one's gonna use Romero's Joker today....Romero's Joker only works because the TV show purposely made the characters look like jokes....which is probably why they let romero keep his mustache on even with the white paint on him. O Neil, Engleheart, etc all took the classic look and fit them into their tones. They didnt need Joker looking like some Edward Scissorhands reject to make their own mark on the clown prince of crime.

Most didnt have a problem with Jack Nicholson as Joker because...he actually looked like the joker, short and fatness aside. The face from the comics was translated to screen, even with the perma laugh. They managed to fit burtons tone of a screwball world and the comics at the same time. Same with Batman's outfit. With the molded rubber, its essentially the neal adams costume except in all black. I dont agree that fans wouldve freaked out...at least not in the way you think. Hearing about a black suit, yes...but seeing it...like many did when WB released that teaser...people wouldve shut up immediately, because the suit looks like the comics and fit the tone of the movie.

People didnt like the SR suit because it took the bright, shiny colors of Superman, and made them muddled and dark, and they looked horrible put together. At least Batmans a dark character...you understood why his suit was made darker. With Superman, it seemed very unnecessary, and frankly, the suit looked horrible in the first picture.

Sorry, but people dont like this pic because they crapped all over the joker look. Even though nolan disappointed the hell out of me with Scarecrow, at least he had some semblance of the comics, especially at the end of the movie. At least Movie Ra's Al Ghul looked somewhat like the comic Ras Al Ghul. But Joker? He looks like one the comic joker's sick lackey's that joker would throw in a vat of acid for no reason.

Now, I know many Nolanites are, as they usually do, completely spit on the comics and praise whatever the hell nolan does, but realize that fitting the tone and being actually faithful to the over all look of the character are not mutually exclusive ideas. If Spider-Man, Iron Man, and Chris Reeve's superman could do it, so can joker.

Excelent Post

Like I said befere, is the little details that make those characters great

Like your example with SR suit, Singer changed only details, and alot of people hate it for it, and most people that manip the SR promo pic, only change the color and nothing much, and say that those details would make a great superman suit

With Spidey organic shooters, many peole accepted them because well, you almost never see Spidey mechanical shooters, you know they are there but in a way they don´t play a huge role in the stories, and actually taking them, out of the movie give some verisimilitude to it since Peter would have to be a real genius (not a geek, but a real genius), to actually make a spiderweb like substace.

With the Batsuit, is almost the same, most of the time the suit in comics is drawn in shadows, and a lot of times is drawn black only highlighting Bats face, the same way the movie version does.

And the Joker... well, I think they could have done something more faithfull to his look on the comics, and since his smile is such a big deal,for people that might have problems with it it could really be distracting to get into the movie, since the scarring on the pic is so big and obvious

The one of the things that really annoys ME with part of the comics fandom is how much people tend MARRY some director puts him on a pedestal and blindly accept every single change that person make to the source material.

And then come to the board acting like a know-it-all sensei praising his world like the one and only truth, claiming that anyone who disagre is either stupid, childish and noting but a obssesed fanboy.

Well, kill me if I wanted a Joker who actually looked like the Joker
 
The fact is that every villain ever made is drawn like a creepy psychotic. That doesn't mean they should all be given scars in the movies.

My post was focused not on the literal interpretation of this being the first time he's ever been creepy or psychotic, but I know that's all you read into it so why bother explain myself. I doubt you care to be open to my views. But what the hell, life is short. So what I'm really saying is that in light of this image's existence people who are nolan worshippers are focusing exclusively on how Joker's appeared close to the image in question, whereas before that Joker merely looked like typical comic joker without any special definition of his overall essence. views of the Joker seem to be Narrowing down now for obvious reasons. Make sense?

Don't talk down to me because you contradicted yourself.
The joker didn't look creep and psychotic (In other words, deformed and ugly) until this picture came out.
You say, right here, in bold and italics for your convenience, that the Joker did not look creepy before this picture. Look, I'm not in love with the picture myself, but I'd never just flat-out make something up (something so unbelievably ridiculous that it feels silly arguing over it, by the way) just to try and give myself a leg to stand on.

I'm not a Nolan worshipper, but I am quite a big fan of common sense.
 
Don't talk down to me because you contradicted yourself.

You say, right here, in bold and italics for your convenience, that the Joker did not look creepy before this picture. Look, I'm not in love with the picture myself, but I'd never just flat-out make something up (something so unbelievably ridiculous that it feels silly arguing over it, by the way) just to try and give myself a leg to stand on.

I'm not a Nolan worshipper, but I am quite a big fan of common sense.

You're still interpreting it literally. It's not meant literally. Look deeper between the lines. Why did I put in parentheses (in other words, bla bla bla) It's because I'm pointing out how language is being manipulated to paint an image of Joker today that was not being painted before when people were making manips and discussing the future joker. but anyway Good grief. Get over this man. It's been a whole day.
 
A lot of you make good points and have good posts but really we're a whole year + away from this film......Yes this is a movie based off comic style ideas and characters blah blah blah but this isnt a comic book series, its film a different and unique genre...a lot you dont respect that. Nolan and crew are artists, flim artists. They've earned the right to make a Batman arc so let them do what they want. If you did not like Begins then you're probably not going to like TDK. Maybe later someone else will make Batman movies again and give you what you want. And no Im not picking a side here Im just saying shut up and let the artists do their work, if you like it good, if not then oh well, sorry.
 
Actually no, The Joker frequently makes rather astute and irreverant jokes that are genuinely amusing, and are clearly intended to be.
a serious question.
should people laugh in the theater when joker is on screen? should they laugh when he is talking? should they laugh when he is killing?
 
a serious question.
should people laugh in the theater when joker is on screen? should they laugh when he is talking? should they laugh when he is killing?

I love the Joker's twisted sense of humor. So I think I will at least grin and smile. When he's killing, I'm not sure. Depends how inventive his methods will be. :joker:
 
I love the Joker's twisted sense of humor. So I think I will at least grin and smile. When he's killing, I'm not sure. Depends how inventive his methods will be. :joker:
i am 100% sure that nolan will never make a villain where people would laugh in the theater.
 
a serious question.
should people laugh in the theater when joker is on screen? should they laugh when he is talking? should they laugh when he is killing?

They should laugh at his jokes, and then feel incredibly guilty and morally confused when he stabs the target of his puns to death. "Dark charisma" has always been the core of The Joker, for me. You love him until he gives you reason to hate him.

With "The Joke", I just can't like him at all. There's nothing morally troubling about him. He is just a monster that looks like a monster.
 
They should laugh at his jokes, and then feel incredibly guilty and morally confused when he stabs the target of his puns to death. "Dark charisma" has always been the core of The Joker, for me. You love him until he gives you reason to hate him.

With "The Joke", I just can't like him at all. There's nothing morally troubling about him. He is just a monster that looks like a monster.
IMO nolan will never make a movie where people in the theater laugh. never.
 

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