Why is making a good Superman movie so hard?

[Milk Tray Guy]

Gal Gadot is a great Wonder Woman, but Christopher Reeve was BORN to play Superman. Not trying to be negative because I enjoy both, just being honest.

I agree about Gadot and about Reeve (for me Lynda Carter was as perfect a Wonder Woman as Reeve was a Superman).

 

[Mandon Knight]

It will be a 'generational' thing but yes, Carter is the personification of WW for me, appreciate I grew up as a child in the era of both Reeve as Superman & Carter as WW, and bad place, finish it off with Keaton as Batman and the trinity is

 

[Vader's Fist]

I really think it might be impossible to top STM. I really think that it and The Dark Knight are by far the best that DC ever churned out. Next level stuff.

Superman was good for it's time. However, it hasn't aged all that well either. It really only holds up on a first viewing, as I found when I watched it a second time. Also, I think it might have kicked off the notion that Superman is too, as I put it, squeaky clean. Outside of a few token moments, we never really see him make any mistakes or express much self doubt. Compare this to Batman Begins, Spider-Man (2002) or Iron Man (2008), where we see protagonists who're often unsure of themselves, mess up and have to be chewed out by the people close to them, but who, nonetheless, remain likable throughout their respective films. Now, to be clear, I don't hate S:TM. I'm just saying that I don't find it as great as most others do.

 

[Mandon Knight]

I think this moment demonstrates the inner turmoil within the S :TM, and handles it well. That he couldn't save her....

[YT]rkJUMz9RTag[/YT]

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

It will be a 'generational' thing but yes, Carter is the personification of WW for me, appreciate I grew up as a child in the era of both Reeve as Superman & Carter as WW, and bad place, finish it off with Keaton as Batman and the trinity is

Ditto!

 

[Powerman34]

I feel like they go overboard with the Christ analogy and religious symbolism. I don't ever need to see Superman in a Jesus Christ pose and/or dying and being resurrected again in a movie for as long as I live.

Exactly and I say this as a Christian, Supes is an alien who looks like us but is not. He is not Space Jesus! WB has been trying to put the Death of Superman on screen for along time and they got their wish but they mucked up the execution. Superman is just a man with incredible powers but he is not omnipotent or all powerful. I believe he did it in Crisis on Infinite earths DCAU movie that he deals with beings more powerful than him all the time but he never gives up.

 

[Limonade]

Exactly and I say this as a Christian, Supes is an alien who looks like us but is not. He is not Space Jesus! WB has been trying to put the Death of Superman on screen for along time and they got their wish but they mucked up the execution. Superman is just a man with incredible powers but he is not omnipotent or all powerful. I believe he did it in Crisis on Infinite earths DCAU movie that he deals with beings more powerful than him all the time but he never gives up.

Right on!

 

[Herofan]

Most talented filmmakers, certainly the ones who were considered to and ended up making the recent movies, do seem (for all their differences) to have a strong desire to play up the angstiness, feel that's what makes a story more interesting or worth telling at all. Plus there's the double-edged sword that the origin story, especially as in the classic-Reeve beats, is already so well known that redoing too much or doing too much too similarly could seem redundant.

Another issue is, aside from Lois in a sense there's not much of a more cynical counterpart to Superman's idealism like with Luke/Han, Will/Jack Sparrow or even Captain America/Black Widow.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Another issue is, aside from Lois in a sense there's not much of a more cynical counterpart to Superman's idealism like with Luke/Han, Will/Jack Sparrow or even Captain America/Black Widow.

True. That's a counterbalance often provided by Batman in their team-ups. A prime example is the story The Supergirl from Krypton, animated as the movie Superman/Batman: Apocalypse.

 

[unholyrevenger]

I think Captain America turning into one of Marvel's strongest franchises proves that making a Superman movie isn't as difficult as people make it out to be.

The problem is that WB has been flailing for decades and, up until 2017, couldn't make any character that isn't Batman work.

Except Cap is the MCU's Batman.

 

[unholyrevenger]

I mean...let's say Superman does in fact have no real internal conflict for most of STM. To that I say, and with no offense...so what? Are we going to pretend that Superman is the only one who has that "problem"? Because he's not.

Its arguable that Iron Man in "Iron Man" and James Bond in "Goldfinger" both lack an internal conflict for most of their respective films. Both of those films are still considered great, and both Tony Stark and James Bond are still beloved film characters.

Main conflict of Superman 1 and 2 is Clark loves Lois, but Lois Loves Superman. So Clark goes to great lengths to make her love him. Including Traveling time and undoing the one scene in the movie that has any character growth, and getting rid of his powers so Lois will only love Clark.

As far as Iron man is concerned that movie is about Tony's journey from apathetic Party Boy to a person who takes responsibility with his power. So his only internal conflict happens while in his work shop and he sees the ten rings using his weapons and the moment is fleeting because he makes up his mind.

 

[semper]

Except Cap is the MCU's Batman.

Black Panther is the MCU's Batman. Far more commonalities. Extreme wealth, skills, genius intellect, paranoid prep time masters with contingency plans to beat everyone. Even similar costume.

Literally the only thing Cap has in common with Batman is that they are both extraordinary hand to hand fighters. That's pretty much it. In terms of skill/powerset Cap is basically a noble version of Deathstroke. But in terms of personality, Cap is the closest thing in the MCU to Superman.

 

[FunkMiller]

When you have a film studio, film-makers and vocal sections of the fan base with the attitude that Superman needs ‘updating’ or ‘changing to make him more relatable’ or ‘altered so he isn’t boring’ ... you get bad Superman films.

Superman is meant to be positive, light and family friendly. A lot of people hate this, because they are the kinds of people who think being trustworthy, honourable and upstanding is lame.

When a filmmaker doesn’t make a Superman film for male adolescents and 20-somethings, we’ll get another good Superman film.

Black Panther is the MCU's Batman.

Nah. It’s Iron Man. Ordinary human being. Genius. Philanthropist. Billionaire. Crime fighter. Haunted by his own demons. Etc. Etc.

Tony Stark was clearly based on Bruce Wayne with a Marvel spin.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

There is no 1 Marvel Batman because Batman's characteristics are divided among a few different characters, as has been mentioned in this thread. And Batman himself has been used very differently over the years.

If you are looking at his role as the Justice League's lancer (as opposed to the main protagonist Superman/Captain America), then Iron Man is definitely it. But in terms of Batman's solo adventures, as the masked, dark, violent, street-level vigilante in a crime-ridden city with a strict no kill policy, then I think the Marvel character that most reflects that is Daredevil.

 

[FunkMiller]

There is no 1 Marvel Batman because Batman's characteristics are divided among a few different characters, as has been mentioned in this thread. And Batman himself has been used very differently over the years.

If you are looking at his role as the Justice League's lancer (as opposed to the main protagonist Superman/Captain America), then Iron Man is definitely it. But in terms of Batman's solo adventures, as the masked, dark, violent, street-level vigilante in a crime-ridden city with a strict no kill policy, then I think the Marvel character that most reflects that is Daredevil.

Arguably, every single superhero ever created after 1939 is either a take on Batman or Superman, or a combination of the two.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Arguably, every single superhero ever created after 1939 is either a take on Batman or Superman, or a combination of the two.

A lot, but I think all is a big stretch. Hulk, for example, owes far more to Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde and the Wolfman.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

I do think Superman is harder to adapt than most heroes. There's balancing hope and darkness (his Kryptonian backstory). Also, you actually need a good writer to give him a challenge that doesn't involve kryptonite.

That said, I still think the biggest problem is just the fact that the creative teams behind the recent movies either don't like the character or understand the character.

I remember Snyder originally turned down directing a Superman movie due to not getting him. Not surprisingly, a lot of the DCEU's most ardent fans claim they hated Superman before Man of Steel.

A lot, but I think all is a big stretch. Hulk, for example, owes far more to Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde and the Wolfman.

I think even Hulk was influenced by Superman to some extent. They combined the dual identity and superpowers of Superman with the Jekyll/Hyde concept.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

There is no 1 Marvel Batman because Batman's characteristics are divided among a few different characters, as has been mentioned in this thread. And Batman himself has been used very differently over the years.

If you are looking at his role as the Justice League's lancer (as opposed to the main protagonist Superman/Captain America), then Iron Man is definitely it. But in terms of Batman's solo adventures, as the masked, dark, violent, street-level vigilante in a crime-ridden city with a strict no kill policy, then I think the Marvel character that most reflects that is Daredevil.

Agree on Daredevil (I wish the two Batman/Daredevil team-up comics had been better). I'd throw Moon Knight in there too. Not identical, but there are elements.

 

[metaphysician]

If anything, I'd say Black Panther is more analogous to Wonder Woman: he's an "outsider" from a "strange" ( read: not a standard white male western ) society, whose powers and abilities are tied to such, and who struggles with social implications of who they are and where they come from.

 

[Frodo]

As far as the subject of the thread goes, the answer is so expansive and multi-faceted that its hard to do it justice by a quick reply or several paragraphs .

The only recommendation I can give off the top of my head is to read Superman vs Hollywood [/I by Jake Rossen(2008)and watch The Death of Superman Lives .

Other than those, the fact the character has been around 80 years and has had several different film, cartoon, and tv versions has made it difficult to make "fresh and interesting" what the GA knows pretty well backwards and forwards.

Marvel characters , in terms of mainstream awareness, are relatively recent, thus are alot newer and fresher than Batman and Superman in the public's eyes.

The one thing alot of younger fanboys don't realize is that Marvel was considered a joke in terms of films and tv before 2000. Batman and Superman , that was it in terms of really successful comicbook movies.

There was no talk of shared universes, and there certainly wasn't confidence that any Marvel feature films would be anywhere near as successful or acclaimed as Superman 78 or Batman 89, at least on the studios perception of that time.

WB kept kicking the can down the road until Marvel had become a powerhouse with several films and then tried to exploit properties they had sat on for decades.

 

[The Guard]

It's not easy to make a good movie, period, let alone an adaption where different groups of people have markedly different expectations based on the version of a character they prefer or the success of previous adaptions.

The conflict in SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE is Kal-El/Clark balancing his Kryptonian birthright with his human impulses; recognizing his level of power, and struggling with his responsibility and role as a result. He starts off not knowing what to use his great powers for but dearly wanting to do something with them, develops his mission and uses his powers constructively per Jor-El's wishes, but ends up essentially forging his own path by the end of the movie after deciding to use his powers to undo what Luthor had done, despite Jor-El's warnings about interfering with human history.

 

[unholyrevenger]

Nah. It’s Iron Man. Ordinary human being. Genius. Philanthropist. Billionaire. Crime fighter. Haunted by his own demons. Etc. Etc.

Tony Stark was clearly based on Bruce Wayne with a Marvel spin.

No it's Cap. Cap believes the government should cooperate with him and if not he doesn't need their permission to do his thing. You know... like Batman. Cap believes in the mission more than the cause because he know's he's not changing how the world works. You know... like Batman. Go back and watch Tony and Steve's conversation on the Barton Farm.

Tony and Bruce being rich playboys means nothing when both have completely different outlooks on their role in the world. Tony has more in common with Adrian Veidt than Batman

 

[unholyrevenger]

The conflict in SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE is Kal-El/Clark balancing his Kryptonian birthright with his human impulses; recognizing his level of power, and struggling with his responsibility and role as a result. He starts off not knowing what to use his great powers for but dearly wanting to do something with them, develops his mission and uses his powers constructively per Jor-El's wishes, but ends up essentially forging his own path by the end of the movie after deciding to use his powers to undo what Luthor had done, despite Jor-El's warnings about interfering with human history.

No, the conflict in that movie and in Superman 2 is Clark loves Lois, but Lois loves Superman. The movie you described doesn't exist, if it did we'd see Clark learn to use his powers and learn lessons in the fortress not cut to a few years later with Clark in full command of his abilities.

 

[Matleo]

becuse the look to deep inside the box.
Send him in space to see the remains of his home planet, give him villiand like Lobo , Brainiac and others , maybe let him meet a green or a yellow lantern or the antimonitor? Maybe that evil clone? mettalo and cyborg plotline could be cool.

use supergirl right?

now with justice league the superman saga can show more cryptonite versions.

Involve somehow cyborg in his plot?

we didnt see one important thing in the movies the red sun taking his powers what would be a good thing, imagine a solar based villians that could do so and force superman to have a cosmic suit?

he would need strong villians, man of steel and the dawn of justice was very good in this matter when showing the growth of his character.

 

[The Guard]

No, the conflict in that movie and in Superman 2 is Clark loves Lois, but Lois loves Superman. The movie you described doesn't exist, if it did we'd see Clark learn to use his powers and learn lessons in the fortress not cut to a few years later with Clark in full command of his abilities.

I didn't say the conflict was incredibly well developed. The movie jumps around a bit. Clark loving Lois is part of the overarching conflict I mentioned above. He has to maintain a secret identity in order to effectively be Superman, even though he'd like to have a normal life. The conflict continues into Superman II, with him deciding to give up his powers to have this normal life.

The entire film is not about Superman loving Lois, it's about the emergence of Superman. Lois is a subplot in the film. Superman loving Lois is a part of the exploration of his central conflict...Kryptonian/Superman VS Human.