Why is Wolverine the leader?

[Da_Lycan]

Ok forget all that stuff about his name being in the title and wanting to promote the upcoming movie and all that. I'm talking about as if you were in the show what would the logic be? Wolverine said it himself no one would be involved if he was the leader. Yet the professor puts him in charge without saying why. Yes Cyclops is upset about Jean but if professor X told him to lead the team he would.

If messiah complex has shown anything it's that cyclops is more than ready to lead the x-men and mutantkind without jean or the professor around. Same with Storm who is capable of leading. So why wolverine? All he does is follow X's messages from the future. Hell even forge could have done that. The 1st season is more than halfway done and all wolverine did was assemble the team which he really didn't have much to do with. Cause the sentinels in the future to be upgraded. Good job there all mighty logan. And stop the brotherhood which the other x-men were capable of doing without him.

 

[TheVileOne]

Ok forget all that stuff about his name being in the title and wanting to promote the upcoming movie and all that. I'm talking about as if you were in the show what would the logic be? Wolverine said it himself no one would be involved if he was the leader. Yet the professor puts him in charge without saying why. Yes Cyclops is upset about Jean but if professor X told him to lead the team he would.

Hulk VS. (featuring Wolverine) sells 180K in a few days and you ask why .

If messiah complex has shown anything it's that cyclops is more than ready to lead the x-men and mutantkind without jean or the professor around. Same with Storm who is capable of leading. So why wolverine? All he does is follow X's messages from the future. Hell even forge could have done that. The 1st season is more than halfway done and all wolverine did was assemble the team which he really didn't have much to do with. Cause the sentinels in the future to be upgraded. Good job there all mighty logan. And stop the brotherhood which the other x-men were capable of doing without him.

OK here we go. I'm going to try and answer this best I can. Keeping in mind that Dread might come in and repeat the same points he's made before.

Listen man . . . I know you guys like Cyclops and think he should be the leader, but . . . get over it.

Yes Cyclops is the leader and he always has his **** together and does right by bloddy bloddy blah (TM, Thomas Schatz).

Here's the deal. There have already been two different X-men cartoons where Cyclops is the esteemed, prominent, fearless leader. What's the point of doing a brand new show unless you are going to change it up and do something different?

So now we have a show where the X-men are recovering after they were disbanded and their home was destroyed. Cyclops is a broken man and not the leader he was. And Wolverine is the leader. Yes Wolverine is the leader.

So many trolls on the IMDB boards ask WHY IS WOLVERINE THE LEADER?! WHY WHY WHY?!!!! CYCLOPS IS THE LEADER?

People keep saying, why is Wolverine the leader? I say, why not? But Wolverine isn't a leader. He's not the leader type. Ex-freaking-zactly! That's why I like the show. You have a guy who isn't a leader in charge now, so there's a lot more tension in the group. That's a lot more interesting and different than the tired dynamic of Cyclops being the perfect leader with Wolverine as the cool, badass, loner hotshot.

But really why is Wolverine the leader? Because Wolverine is loyal, brave, and honest. He will go to hell and back. But I think the other thing is, Wolverine will make those tough decisions even though he makes mistakes.

Do I have some critiques about some of it? Yes. I think there could be something that's stated a bit more than just future Xavier head says so.

I also think that you know maybe, Cyclops could say something like, "So now you know how it feels. Leading us isn't easy, is it Logan?" While Logan finally understands all the hell he made Cyclops put through. You know like when you become a parent or as you grow older and get more responsibilities and you start realizing about all those things you would take for granted in your youth your parents warn you about.

Before Xavier, Wolverine did re-assemble the team when no one else was. It's a ragtag team to be sure, but it's still a team.

Having a rough around the edges, tension-laden, and ragtag team is at least different than the cliche, usual X-men team dynamic.

The comics always generally avoids putting Logan in an X-men leader spot. So we get something different here and well, it's good, so I'm enjoying the ride.

Sometimes the fan-gushing for Cyclops in the comics gets a little tiresome. Cyclops is at least playing a role here that he usually doesn't play.

 

[Da_Lycan]

Ok I'm not putting Wolverine down as a character. Cause yea I'll admit he'll go balls to walls for the x-men. But what is this tension you speak of? Aside from when Logan talks down to Cyclops and Scott just backs down or when Rogue talked bad about Logan always leaving cause she feels close to him. There is no tension. Even when Rogue made valid points about Logan always leaving no one said anything against it making it seem that Rogue was just mad over nothing. Logan has faults and they are obviously getting in the way and no one says anything. If they had people saying things and some actual tension it would be better but they can't cause Wolverine can't be shown as wrong.

 

[Dread]

OK here we go. I'm going to try and answer this best I can. Keeping in mind that Dread might come in and repeat the same points he's made before.

That is honestly why I didn't reply to Da_Lycan last night in this topic; he shares a lot of my view points and I kind of expected your viewpoint and wanted to have your say about the matter. I like long posts, but I didn't want to mindlessly repeat myself.

All I am going to repeat is my point that 17 episodes in, it is not the premise of Wolverine leading the X-Men that has been lacking, it has been some of the execution. The tension that I believe Kyle and Johnson want to produce with this line-up is rare, at best. So rare that it isn't much different from typical X-Men inter-team bickering. No one on the team holds Logan's faults or errors against him. Aside for a few occasional jokes from Rogue, Frost, or Kitty, Logan is unquestioned in command. His errors always work themselves out, and become meaningless. I honestly wish that Kyle and Johnson were better at execution the premise they wanted. Even with their hiccups, the show is this good. If they had only ironed it out better at the series bible phase, it might be SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN caliber. Instead, Logan is Red Ranger, the favorite of the Floating Head.

Cyclops also isn't a loner/rebel. He usually is mute and fires an optic blast from the background. The one time he tried at being Logan, he failed miserably, needed to be saved, and had Logan all but call him the worst X-Men in existence. And the only problem with changing the X-formula of Scott being leader was that in the comics, Xavier often was closest to him and Jean, and that his leadership was questioned constantly by other X-Men, including Wolverine.

I share TheVileOne's idea that it would be good if Logan actually acknowledged to Cyclops his errors and how hard it is to hold the team together, and will have some understanding for the man. Sadly, that would mean Logan admitting on screen that Scott has some character aspect that is superior or at least matching his own, and no writer would dare say that. Logan always has to be tops. He can beat 100 ninjas even if only two can beat Beast with ease, because he's Logan.

But to answer the topic question, I don't think dismissing the financial reason for making Logan the leader and star should be dismissed so easily. The show was a hit in Canada and Latin America, so much so that a second season was approved months before it aired on NickToons. W&TXM then proceeded to score historic ratings for NickToons as well as incredible ratings in repeats on regular Nick. I imagine the DVD's will sell well, which is why the first 3-4 episodes will be available as soon as April. Love him, hate him, or somewhere betwixt, Wolverine sells.

In terms of storyline, that hasn't been revealed. Future Xavier wants to steer events from the future with the present team, knowing the loss of the X-Men was why his future is terrible. Storm went to Africa, Scott was being a tool, and Beast apparently had no will to lead, so Logan was the only option. In HINDSIGHT, it was Logan who chose that circumstances had gotten so bad after a year that the X-Men had to be reformed, even if imperfect or rag-tag. He got them to rescue Xavier from Genosha, even if he could have accomplished it without a token fight with Magneto. To Future X, he may feel that at least in the current climate, Logan is the only one who had the inclination to mobilize the team again. The only problem is, again, the execution; half the time, Logan's leadership is following Future X's mission orders and being reassured when he fouls up, which nearly any X-Man could pull off. With a minor rewrite, McCoy could have done so if this was BEAST AND THE X-MEN.

 

[Daredevil_2003]

Well, for starters, Wolverine is the leader cause that's how they wanted it. But, in the storyline, he's the leader because he's the only one capable. Scott is a wreck, he would do it if Xavier asked but who wants a basket case in charge of life and death situations? And Storm ran off to Africa. Who else is there? Kittie? Bobby? Hank? Please.

 

[Blade X]

He is the leader because he is the most popular member of the X-Men. And asinine Hollywood boardroom suit logic dictates that since he is the most popular X-Men, then he should be the leader.

 

[Dread]

Well, for starters, Wolverine is the leader cause that's how they wanted it. But, in the storyline, he's the leader because he's the only one capable. Scott is a wreck, he would do it if Xavier asked but who wants a basket case in charge of life and death situations? And Storm ran off to Africa. Who else is there? Kittie? Bobby? Hank? Please.

A little off topic, but I could see Beast as the leader easily if the storyline demanded it. He was still hanging around the Mansion grounds, even. Not even Logan stuck around physically for that year's gap in time. But, yeah, story demanded that Logan be the one to push them to reassemble.

In the comics, Wolverine very briefly led the X-Men, but that was basically because Storm all but forced him into that position. I wouldn't have minded seeing that "natural leader" aspect of Storm done in animation. Instead all we usually get is horrible melodrama (especially in the 90's TV series) and an occasional thunderbolt. In one episode she held the team without Logan being there, but if Scott wasn't going to be the man to try to balance out Logan's leadership and speak up, it was Storm. Logan always respected her in the comics, more than he ever did for Scott. He never would have yelled at Storm for being the worst mutant alive for a solo adventure.

He is the leader because he is the most popular member of the X-Men. And asinine Hollywood boardroom suit logic dictates that since he is the most popular X-Men, then he should be the leader.

While I agree with that sentiment, the Devil's Advocate in me has to sigh and admit that at least in this case, the "asinine Hollywood boardroom suit logic" resulted in W&TXM being very popular overseas and on domestic cable networks; some feel the success of the recent HULK VS. DVD comes entirely because it had Wolverine on the cover, too. The real test will be if WOLVERINE can carry a whole 2 hour, 100+ million summer blockbuster, aided only by Gambit (who the mainstream knows, but isn't as hot now as he was in, say, 1997).

The premise of Logan being leader isn't entirely flawed, the problem was the execution. It's a first season, so hiccups in writing are not unheard of in a first season. HEROES sure had a bunch. The hope is that they improve as they go along.

 

[Blade X]

While I agree with that sentiment, the Devil's Advocate in me has to sigh and admit that at least in this case, the "asinine Hollywood boardroom suit logic" resulted in W&TXM being very popular overseas and on domestic cable networks; some feel the success of the recent HULK VS. DVD comes entirely because it had Wolverine on the cover, too. The real test will be if WOLVERINE can carry a whole 2 hour, 100+ million summer blockbuster, aided only by Gambit (who the mainstream knows, but isn't as hot now as he was in, say, 1997).

The premise of Logan being leader isn't entirely flawed, the problem was the execution. It's a first season, so hiccups in writing are not unheard of in a first season. HEROES sure had a bunch. The hope is that they improve as they go along.

Well I would counter your Devil's Advocate argument by saying that the previous 2 X-Men animated series didn't have Wolverine as the leader and they were both hugely popular (X-MEN TAS being the more popular one). I would also argue that the success of the HULK VS DVD had more to do with the whole premise of popular heroes beating the crap out of each other for 70 minutes, and less to do with Wolverine being in it (although I'm pretty sure that his appearance did attract some sales).

The MAIN problem with Wolverine being the leader is that it turns him from a loose cannon bad@$$ with an attitude problem into a more responsible and stern semi level headed grumpy leader. The ONLY upside to him being leader is that the other characters come off more interesting and cooler then he does. Which is very ironic when you think about it.

 

[Dread]

Well I would counter your Devil's Advocate argument by saying that the previous 2 X-Men animated series didn't have Wolverine as the leader and they were both hugely popular (X-MEN TAS being the more popular one). I would also argue that the success of the HULK VS DVD had more to do with the whole premise of popular heroes beating the crap out of each other for 70 minutes, and less to do with Wolverine being in it (although I'm pretty sure that his appearance did attract some sales).

Fair point. The 90's X-MEN was incredibly popular, and still is; Buena Vista is finally getting around to DVD's of the first 2.5 seasons after 11 years and they likely will sell tens of thousands of copies of it, 11 years after the series ended and after another decade or so of syndication. That said, Wolverine got a lot of focus in that series, especially within the last two seasons. He showed up more than any other X-Man. Still, it did split focus. That said, that series was the trend-setter. Would we have even had a line of films without that series being popular for 5 seasons?

X-MEN EVOLUTION naturally focused on virtually every character but Wolverine at least until the end of Season 3, but I don't think it was as popular so soon as WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN is proving too. Granted, it did well enough to get Kid's WB to order 52 episodes of it quick, but despite good ratings, they did not order more, maybe due to rights issues. It still is popular.

It will be interesting to compare sales for the first W&TXM DVD release in April with some of the first X-MEN EVOLUTION DVD releases from 2000-2003, when DVD's as a whole sold better than they do now.

The MAIN problem with Wolverine being the leader is that it turns him from a loose cannon bad@$$ with an attitude problem into a more responsible and stern semi level headed grumpy leader. The ONLY upside to him being leader is that the other characters come off more interesting and cooler then he does. Which is very ironic when you think about it.

Frankly, most times Logan is just a stock "gruff leader" which itself is a cliche, and other characters being interesting is hindered by their inability to ever challenge or upstage the central star, if only for a second. Beyond Rogue and Nightcrawler, and Beast at the start, the writers' favoritism for Logan sometimes does seem strong.

 

[EnDz0n3]

The real test will be if WOLVERINE can carry a whole 2 hour, 100+ million summer blockbuster, aided only by Gambit (who the mainstream knows, but isn't as hot now as he was in, say, 1997).

Well apparently "the film is well under two hours " so less pressure now...

 

[Blade X]

Fair point. The 90's X-MEN was incredibly popular, and still is; Buena Vista is finally getting around to DVD's of the first 2.5 seasons after 11 years and they likely will sell tens of thousands of copies of it, 11 years after the series ended and after another decade or so of syndication. That said, Wolverine got a lot of focus in that series, especially within the last two seasons. He showed up more than any other X-Man. Still, it did split focus. That said, that series was the trend-setter. Would we have even had a line of films without that series being popular for 5 seasons?

X-MEN EVOLUTION naturally focused on virtually every character but Wolverine at least until the end of Season 3, but I don't think it was as popular so soon as WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN is proving too. Granted, it did well enough to get Kid's WB to order 52 episodes of it quick, but despite good ratings, they did not order more, maybe due to rights issues. It still is popular.

I actually put the entire 90's X-MEN cartoon, along with the PRYDE OF THE X-MEN pilot, on DVD myself. After all, why should I pay money for a series I already had taped off of TV when it first came out. And yes, the quality of the recordings are very good. I also agree with you about the animated series being MAINLY responsible for introducing mainstream non comic book reading audiences to the X-Men. Many people wrongly credit the X-men movies for introducing the mainstream public to the X-Men.

IIRC, the reason why X-MEN EVOLUTION was canceled was because the ratings for RERUNS were low. Every new episode got very high ratings, but the reruns had much lower ratings. IMO, that's a stupid reason to cancel a show, but what do you expect from the same company that is dragging their feet in putting out DVD's for STATIC SHOCK, which also got incredibly high ratings on the KIDSWB network and on CARTOON NETWORK.

 

[TheVileOne]

X-men Evolution was at least able to have an ending of sorts. There was no reason to continue it after that.

So now they've created a separate storyline and universe for this show.

Also it's not idiotic to make Wolverine the leader of this show because so far it's worked.

People who are upset about this show are upset because it goes away from their cliche and close-minded views of the characters even the show acknowledges those ideas and doesn't just write them out.

 

[TheVileOne]

X-men Evolution was at least able to have an ending of sorts. There was no reason to continue it after that.

So now they've created a separate storyline and universe for this show.

Also it's not idiotic to make Wolverine the leader of this show because so far it's worked.

People who are upset about this show are upset because it goes away from their cliche and close-minded views of the characters even the show acknowledges those ideas and doesn't just write them out.

 

[Da_Lycan]

Well, for starters, Wolverine is the leader cause that's how they wanted it. But, in the storyline, he's the leader because he's the only one capable. Scott is a wreck, he would do it if Xavier asked but who wants a basket case in charge of life and death situations? And Storm ran off to Africa. Who else is there? Kittie? Bobby? Hank? Please.

Well after episode 12 looks like Scott is no longer a basket case as you call it. He seems fine hanging around the others and enjoying time with Emma. And Storm is no longer in Africa. So whats the reason now? Why didn't anyone bother asking the professor?

Oh and Dread you're wrong. Logan is white ranger tommy. Replacing red ranger jason because the floating head said so without a reason why. But because his character is more popular.

 

[Dread]

X-men Evolution was at least able to have an ending of sorts. There was no reason to continue it after that.

Yes, X-MEN EVOLUTION at least had a fitting series finale. 52 episodes and 4 seasons is a reasonably good run, especially by 2003 standards. Unlike even Spider-Man, it seems every X-Men cartoon so far has lasted at least 2 seasons.

So now they've created a separate storyline and universe for this show.

Also it's not idiotic to make Wolverine the leader of this show because so far it's worked.

People who are upset about this show are upset because it goes away from their cliche and close-minded views of the characters even the show acknowledges those ideas and doesn't just write them out.

I do agree that this is a different X-Universe. It isn't as slavish to the comic book as the 90's series was, but it is much more faithful to those comics than X-Men Evolution was. At least in terms of the overall universe.

In terms of Wolverine's leadership tenure, I am sticking with my criticism that the execution has been flawed. There isn't nearly as much tension within the team as Kyle & Johnson believe there is, or perhaps wanted. Whether this is because of the editing phase (only being able to get in so much in 20 minutes of time) or whatnot, I don't know. After some initial one-liners about "Logan's leading!? Him!?" within the first 4 episodes or so, there is little tension. Virtually no character stands up to Logan, or tells him when he is wrong. Characters who do have leadership experience never offer any, especially Ororo who lacks the excuse Scott has. No mistake that Logan makes effects the plot in any way, or the team to any degree. He can even lose a fight to a villain, and it never matters. His gut instincts are always right, and no one calls him on his own solo adventures, while he demands tireless selflessness from everyone else. Occasionally Frost and Kitty will make a joke when Logan makes some err, but that is about it. Logan is even the surrogate son of Charles Xavier.

That may be many things. But to claim that is a team that has internal turmoil is a flat out lie, or at least a detachment from what one sees on TV. Frankly I have seen the Planeteers having more internal turmoil than this team.

And it is a shame. Had the team been more chaotic with each other, perhaps some members who genuinely didn't like Logan's style and bickered with him. But aside for one episode of Cyclops storming off, and it was a plot where unlike Wolverine, his mistakes effect the plot and the team directly, it doesn't exist.

 

[Daredevil_2003]

Well after episode 12 looks like Scott is no longer a basket case as you call it. He seems fine hanging around the others and enjoying time with Emma. And Storm is no longer in Africa. So whats the reason now? Why didn't anyone bother asking the professor?

Oh and Dread you're wrong. Logan is white ranger tommy. Replacing red ranger jason because the floating head said so without a reason why. But because his character is more popular.

And I would know this how? It's on like episode 6 here in the states...but anyway, if he's back to normal by 12, refer to my first point.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Wolverine is the kiddies favourite, simple as.

Cyclops is too authoritarian, kids don't want that, he reminds them of their teachers or parents or whatever. They want the violent, lovable rogue, Wolverine.

 

[Daredevil_2003]

Yes, X-MEN EVOLUTION at least had a fitting series finale. 52 episodes and 4 seasons is a reasonably good run, especially by 2003 standards. Unlike even Spider-Man, it seems every X-Men cartoon so far has lasted at least 2 seasons.



I do agree that this is a different X-Universe. It isn't as slavish to the comic book as the 90's series was, but it is much more faithful to those comics than X-Men Evolution was. At least in terms of the overall universe.

In terms of Wolverine's leadership tenure, I am sticking with my criticism that the execution has been flawed. There isn't nearly as much tension within the team as Kyle & Johnson believe there is, or perhaps wanted. Whether this is because of the editing phase (only being able to get in so much in 20 minutes of time) or whatnot, I don't know. After some initial one-liners about "Logan's leading!? Him!?" within the first 4 episodes or so, there is little tension. Virtually no character stands up to Logan, or tells him when he is wrong. Characters who do have leadership experience never offer any, especially Ororo who lacks the excuse Scott has. No mistake that Logan makes effects the plot in any way, or the team to any degree. He can even lose a fight to a villain, and it never matters. His gut instincts are always right, and no one calls him on his own solo adventures, while he demands tireless selflessness from everyone else. Occasionally Frost and Kitty will make a joke when Logan makes some err, but that is about it. Logan is even the surrogate son of Charles Xavier.

That may be many things. But to claim that is a team that has internal turmoil is a flat out lie, or at least a detachment from what one sees on TV. Frankly I have seen the Planeteers having more internal turmoil than this team.

And it is a shame. Had the team been more chaotic with each other, perhaps some members who genuinely didn't like Logan's style and bickered with him. But aside for one episode of Cyclops storming off, and it was a plot where unlike Wolverine, his mistakes effect the plot and the team directly, it doesn't exist.

Me agree with this man...The show's excellent, but a little off in some characterization areas.

 

[Ratcrawler]

It doesn't matter that Cyclops should be leader and Wolverine should be the snarky loner, with creative writing, they could make a show about Jar Jar Binks being a master Jedi. They're all wonderfully fictional.

 

[Havok83]

Storm would have been a better choice

 

[bryanss3]

yeah Storm would be a bad ass Jedi. and no one would mess with her cause she's got that crazy mohawk

 

[storyteller]

And I would know this how? It's on like episode 6 here in the states...but anyway, if he's back to normal by 12, refer to my first point.

Because up to episode 17 has aired elsewhere(CANADA).

 

[Daredevil_2003]

Because up to episode 17 has aired elsewhere(CANADA).

 

[Dread]

Me agree with this man...The show's excellent, but a little off in some characterization areas.

It doesn't matter that Cyclops should be leader and Wolverine should be the snarky loner, with creative writing, they could make a show about Jar Jar Binks being a master Jedi. They're all wonderfully fictional.

My major problem with the show is that many times other characters must "job" to Wolverine or someone else to make Logan seem tough. This means that Scott has to appear like a chump who was never leader in some moments, or the entire team being beaten by a threat that Logan can defeat by the hordes with ease. You can make characters cool without having them insist on jobbing to another, it takes better writing.

This show gets the big strokes and moments right, but so far has problems with subtle nuances, and that may be what holds many episodes from being good, but not great.

 

[TheVileOne]

It makes up for the complete and utter misuse on Wolverine being a jobber in your own words on X-men Evolution.