Civil War Winter is Coming - The Bucky Barnes Thread

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Started thinking more about how TWS fits into all this, and what the significance of the other winter soldiers. (I guess I'll still spoiler tag parts...)

There was some amazing meta on Tumblr (hey, Tumblr's good for something!) from TWS that discussed why Pierce was so easily able to control Bucky - young Alexander Pierce would look almost identical to Steve Rogers. That begs the question, when did Pierce come into the picture? I suspect Pierce got involved early, back in the 70s, when he'd look the most like Steve. Maybe as a US diplomat or in the military, which would explain his rise to Secretary of Defense.

But we wouldn't see him in CW because the Soviets still "owned" Bucky back then, and Pierce might have been able to "borrow" him when he needed to do political HYDRA work in the US. The USSR didn't dissolve IRL until about a week after the Stark assassinations, and Pierce might have negotiated for Bucky's permanent transfer to the US then.

It might also explain why Pierce didn't need to use trigger words on Bucky in TWS, if he was always able to control him more easily than others. He simply tells Bucky what he wants done, no muss, no fuss.

:waa:

Also, the fact that Bucky (and Steve) is so different from the other soldiers who took the serum basically embodies Team Cap's ideology - we can't trust institutions to make decisions that the individual should make.

Erskine made the decision to give Steve the serum because Steve was a good man, and would use his abilities for the right reasons. To fight for the little guy, to stop bullies. Not because he was a good soldier, which is what Colonel Phillips would have wanted, and Erskine ultimately won out on. Well, we saw what a good-soldier-turned-winter-soldier would have looked like, in CW. And it ain't pretty! Because the serum amplifies what the individual has inside, right? And the first thing we saw of Bucky's personality in TFA was protecting Steve. He does that in the Howling Commandos too. He's a sniper, his first job is to take out faraway threats before they take his teammates out. He doesn't go out looking to hurt people, he's not naturally aggressive. He will to protect others, but he doesn't do it because he likes it.

That's why he's ultimately the only winter soldier HYDRA could control reliably. The hyper-aggressive winter soldiers would have been like if they'd given Brock Rumlow the serum. -shudder- Their aggression would have been the most amplified quality, which results in that prison melee fight. Bucky is able to get the commander out of there because his most amplified quality isn't to fight, but to protect.

HYDRA's aim in making the winter soldiers was to make the most destructive and powerful soldiers ever, which was ultimately the wrong agenda to have. Decision by committee can be a b****. :oldrazz:

It also proves that the characteristics a person may have on paper, does not dictate the kind of person they ultimately are, or the kind of actions they'd take. Steve's view is that they should have the autonomy to choose, not be treated the same (as dehumanized weapons, even) simply because they all have similar physical characteristics, which is how institutions think.

The other winter soldiers have similar physical characteristics to Bucky and Steve, but are completely different because of the personality traits they have amplified. Any other winter soldier on the run among civilians would have been an utter disaster, but Bucky makes the decision to lay low and not hurt anyone.
 
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But with Bucky essentially being frozen leading up to the Panther statue of Wakanda being shown in the post-credits scene leading up to Black Panther which I am sure which is what it's leading up to I can somehow see HYDRA invading Wakanda and finding Bucky so that way they can program him again to be their "Winter Soldier" especially since Bucky he is not completely cured of his brainwashing

Unless the Wakandans somehow find a cure and cure Bucky of his brainwashing first...either way I think we will see Bucky again in Black Panther because he will be awoken again
 
Started thinking more about how TWS fits into all this, and what the significance of the other winter soldiers. (I guess I'll still spoiler tag parts...)

There was some amazing meta on Tumblr (hey, Tumblr's good for something!) from TWS that discussed why Pierce was so easily able to control Bucky - young Alexander Pierce would look almost identical to Steve Rogers. That begs the question, when did Pierce come into the picture? I suspect Pierce got involved early, back in the 70s, when he'd look the most like Steve. Maybe as a US diplomat or in the military, which would explain his rise to Secretary of Defense.

But we wouldn't see him in CW because the Soviets still "owned" Bucky back then, and Pierce might have been able to "borrow" him when he needed to do political HYDRA work in the US. The USSR didn't dissolve IRL until about a week after the Stark assassinations, and Pierce might have negotiated for Bucky's permanent transfer to the US then.

It might also explain why Pierce didn't need to use trigger words on Bucky in TWS, if he was always able to control him more easily than others. He simply tells Bucky what he wants done, no muss, no fuss.

:waa:

Also, the fact that Bucky (and Steve) is so different from the other soldiers who took the serum basically embodies Team Cap's ideology - we can't trust institutions to make decisions that the individual should make.

Erskine made the decision to give Steve the serum because Steve was a good man, and would use his abilities for the right reasons. To fight for the little guy, to stop bullies. Not because he was a good soldier, which is what Colonel Phillips would have wanted, and Erskine ultimately won out on. Well, we saw what a good-soldier-turned-winter-soldier would have looked like, in CW. And it ain't pretty! Because the serum amplifies what the individual has inside, right? And the first thing we saw of Bucky's personality in TFA was protecting Steve. He does that in the Howling Commandos too. He's a sniper, his first job is to take out faraway threats before they take his teammates out. He doesn't go out looking to hurt people, he's not naturally aggressive. He will to protect others, but he doesn't do it because he likes it.

That's why he's ultimately the only winter soldier HYDRA could control reliably. The hyper-aggressive winter soldiers would have been like if they'd given Brock Rumlow the serum. -shudder- Their aggression would have been the most amplified quality, which results in that prison melee fight. Bucky is able to get the commander out of there because his most amplified quality isn't to fight, but to protect.

HYDRA's aim in making the winter soldiers was to make the most destructive and powerful soldiers ever, which was ultimately the wrong agenda to have. Decision by committee can be a b****. :oldrazz:

It also proves that the characteristics a person may have on paper, does not dictate the kind of person they ultimately are, or the kind of actions they'd take. Steve's view is that they should have the autonomy to choose, not be treated the same (as dehumanized weapons, even) simply because they all have similar physical characteristics, which is how institutions think.

The other winter soldiers have similar physical characteristics to Bucky and Steve, but are completely different because of the personality traits they have amplified. Any other winter soldier on the run among civilians would have been an utter disaster, but Bucky makes the decision to lay low and not hurt anyone.
Excellent analysis :up::up:
 
But then if HYDRA found Bucky then then I wonder how Pierce comes into play here? I mean Pierce we know that he was really HYDRA but then surely we would have seen flashbacks of Pierce and Bucky crossing paths which we didn't even get
 
But then if HYDRA found Bucky then then I wonder how Pierce comes into play here? I mean Pierce we know that he was really HYDRA but then surely we would have seen flashbacks of Pierce and Bucky crossing paths which we didn't even get
Not necessary to the plot, which is why we didn't see it. By 1991, which is where we see Bucky in Siberia, Pierce was probably in the US well into his political career, and wasn't involved in HYDRA's super-soldier program because he was concentrating on politics.

The Stark assassinations were the "no witnesses" directive for the actual mission, which was retrieving the serum bags from Stark's car. I forgot if they mentioned in the movie where Howard was going with them, but I highly doubt they were going to the HYDRA program.

It's probable Pierce wasn't involved in it. He'd still have a good 20 years to get up the HYDRA ranks.

And as I mentioned in my previous post, Pierce probably wouldn't have been able to negotiate for Bucky's permanent transfer to the US until the USSR dissolved shortly after the Stark assassinations. I think it works, considering HYDRA was trying to get its tentacles globally. It makes sense that political HYDRA members wouldn't necessarily get involved in the military aspects.
 
Then I wonder if Bucky during that time 1991 he would have had to have crossed paths with SHIELD namely Black Widow, Nick Fury, Hawkeye, etc. especially if Bucky was being controlled by HYDRA I mean if he could kill Tony's parents Howard and Maria then surely during that time SHIELD would have been tracking Bucky's whereabouts
 
Started thinking more about how TWS fits into all this, and what the significance of the other winter soldiers. (I guess I'll still spoiler tag parts...)

There was some amazing meta on Tumblr (hey, Tumblr's good for something!) from TWS that discussed why Pierce was so easily able to control Bucky - young Alexander Pierce would look almost identical to Steve Rogers. That begs the question, when did Pierce come into the picture? I suspect Pierce got involved early, back in the 70s, when he'd look the most like Steve. Maybe as a US diplomat or in the military, which would explain his rise to Secretary of Defense.

But we wouldn't see him in CW because the Soviets still "owned" Bucky back then, and Pierce might have been able to "borrow" him when he needed to do political HYDRA work in the US. The USSR didn't dissolve IRL until about a week after the Stark assassinations, and Pierce might have negotiated for Bucky's permanent transfer to the US then.

It might also explain why Pierce didn't need to use trigger words on Bucky in TWS, if he was always able to control him more easily than others. He simply tells Bucky what he wants done, no muss, no fuss.

:waa:

Also, the fact that Bucky (and Steve) is so different from the other soldiers who took the serum basically embodies Team Cap's ideology - we can't trust institutions to make decisions that the individual should make.

Erskine made the decision to give Steve the serum because Steve was a good man, and would use his abilities for the right reasons. To fight for the little guy, to stop bullies. Not because he was a good soldier, which is what Colonel Phillips would have wanted, and Erskine ultimately won out on. Well, we saw what a good-soldier-turned-winter-soldier would have looked like, in CW. And it ain't pretty! Because the serum amplifies what the individual has inside, right? And the first thing we saw of Bucky's personality in TFA was protecting Steve. He does that in the Howling Commandos too. He's a sniper, his first job is to take out faraway threats before they take his teammates out. He doesn't go out looking to hurt people, he's not naturally aggressive. He will to protect others, but he doesn't do it because he likes it.

That's why he's ultimately the only winter soldier HYDRA could control reliably. The hyper-aggressive winter soldiers would have been like if they'd given Brock Rumlow the serum. -shudder- Their aggression would have been the most amplified quality, which results in that prison melee fight. Bucky is able to get the commander out of there because his most amplified quality isn't to fight, but to protect.

HYDRA's aim in making the winter soldiers was to make the most destructive and powerful soldiers ever, which was ultimately the wrong agenda to have. Decision by committee can be a b****. :oldrazz:

It also proves that the characteristics a person may have on paper, does not dictate the kind of person they ultimately are, or the kind of actions they'd take. Steve's view is that they should have the autonomy to choose, not be treated the same (as dehumanized weapons, even) simply because they all have similar physical characteristics, which is how institutions think.

The other winter soldiers have similar physical characteristics to Bucky and Steve, but are completely different because of the personality traits they have amplified. Any other winter soldier on the run among civilians would have been an utter disaster, but Bucky makes the decision to lay low and not hurt anyone.

I thought about this very same thing as far as the qualities the formula would accentuate back in WS. Bucky has had a rough time and is still brainwashed but he really tried to just stay hidden and away from society once he was able to shake off Hydra. He was not out vengeful killing and world domination himself.
And still I got to say-- the part when he gets his handler out of the Super Soldier cage is just heartbreaking to me. He has been nothing but abused. This is where i really hope the MCU actually gives a Disney like ending, please someone let Bucky have a moment of happiness.
 
Not necessary to the plot, which is why we didn't see it. By 1991, which is where we see Bucky in Siberia, Pierce was probably in the US well into his political career, and wasn't involved in HYDRA's super-soldier program because he was concentrating on politics.

The Stark assassinations were the "no witnesses" directive for the actual mission, which was retrieving the serum bags from Stark's car. I forgot if they mentioned in the movie where Howard was going with them, but I highly doubt they were going to the HYDRA program.

It's probable Pierce wasn't involved in it. He'd still have a good 20 years to get up the HYDRA ranks.

And as I mentioned in my previous post, Pierce probably wouldn't have been able to negotiate for Bucky's permanent transfer to the US until the USSR dissolved shortly after the Stark assassinations. I think it works, considering HYDRA was trying to get its tentacles globally. It makes sense that political HYDRA members wouldn't necessarily get involved in the military aspects.

Regarding your spoiler...
The closest we get to knowing where he might have been going with them was when Tony was giving his presentation at MIT and we saw his flashback style perception of the last time he saw his parents where he comments to them about how they have to make a stop at the Pentagon before going on vacation and telling his mother he hopes she likes the food in the Pentagon commissary.
 
Bucky will never ever find peace...not until he admits to himself just who and what he really is...just because Bucky remembers who he is doesn't mean he knows everything because there are still some things he doesn't even know about his past but are locked away somewhere in that mind of his but Bucky will always be a threat whether he is brainwashed or not because HYDRA they still own him mind, body and soul

They still have the triggers to get into his mind and if they are uttered he is as good as their Winter Soldier again
 
Then I wonder if Bucky during that time 1991 he would have had to have crossed paths with SHIELD namely Black Widow, Nick Fury, Hawkeye, etc. especially if Bucky was being controlled by HYDRA I mean if he could kill Tony's parents Howard and Maria then surely during that time SHIELD would have been tracking Bucky's whereabouts
Um, only Fury would be not-a-child/teen in 1991. :funny: (MCU Natasha and I are the same age and I was in 1st grade in 1991.) And he wouldn't have been privy, because only the HYDRA faction of SHIELD would know about Bucky.

Howard helped found SHIELD and he DEFINITELY didn't know about Bucky...:waa:

Regarding your spoiler...
The closest we get to knowing where he might have been going with them was when Tony was giving his presentation at MIT and we saw his flashback style perception of the last time he saw his parents where he comments to them about how they have to make a stop at the Pentagon before going on vacation and telling his mother he hopes she likes the food in the Pentagon commissary.
OOH that's a good catch! The US govt definitely was trying to replicate the serum then, which is always a recurring theme in these films...

I'll have to listen more carefully my next viewing. :yay:
 
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Then I wonder if Bucky during that time 1991 he would have had to have crossed paths with SHIELD namely Black Widow, Nick Fury, Hawkeye, etc. especially if Bucky was being controlled by HYDRA I mean if he could kill Tony's parents Howard and Maria then surely during that time SHIELD would have been tracking Bucky's whereabouts
We don't know if SHIELD (correction, the non-Hydra elements within SHIELD) knew that Howard was assassinated and that it wasn't just a car accident like was reported (one would think that the Hydra elements within SHIELD would cover up and remove any evidence indicating it was a hit).

Also, remember what Widow tells Cap in The Winter Soldier "Most of the intelligence community doesn't believe he exists"

We know Widow knows he exists because she crossed paths with him (though that would have been well after 1991 since she was born in 1984 or was it 83) where he shot her in order to take out his target. But if there was no trail to follow (she also told Steve that she tried looking for him but it was a 'dead end') it might be hard to convince others to open an investigation into what hasn't amounted to much more than a 'ghost story'
 
Either way just because he remembers who he is doesn't mean he remembers his whole entire life his friendship with Steve his time in WW2 he remembers only fragments of his life he doesn't remember it all he remembers his time as Winter Soldier when HYDRA found him and turned him into this killing machine
 
Bucky will never ever find peace...not until he admits to himself just who and what he really is...just because Bucky remembers who he is doesn't mean he knows everything because there are still some things he doesn't even know about his past but are locked away somewhere in that mind of his but Bucky will always be a threat whether he is brainwashed or not because HYDRA they still own him mind, body and soul

They still have the triggers to get into his mind and if they are uttered he is as good as their Winter Soldier again

And you guys know this to be the case Winter Soldier will always be a threat so it won't be surprising if HYDRA come to Wakanda to retrieve him
 
And you guys know this to be the case Winter Soldier will always be a threat so it won't be surprising if HYDRA come to Wakanda to retrieve him
Would HYDRA even want him back? Nobody was apparently gunning for him in the 2 years he was on the run by himself, not until he was framed for the UN bombing.

From what we saw in CW, HYDRA is essentially dead and buried. Pierce's death in TWS and Nat's leaking of the files means they have no power anywhere, because everyone knows their secrets. Rumlow was acting for himself (or as a terrorist faction) in the beginning of CW, IIRC. And that former HYDRA officer gets seemed to have given up that life since then.

Especially considering the notebook with Bucky's trigger words are hidden inside a wall. From what we've seen, everyone but Pierce needed to use those trigger words to control him. Hiding them inside a wall probably means they don't plan on using them anytime soon.

IMO HYDRA has decided to forget about Bucky. It would be the UN and other national security folks coming after Bucky. Steve and Bucky know he'll never get a fair shake if he's caught now, thanks to the Accords.
 
Bucky either way he is going to have to spend the rest of his life running I mean the Accords basically are the reason for that but more so everyone knows who he is in the world...wherever he goes he will be instantly recognized which is why in Wakanda he was frozen there but then won't Wakandans want his head because of King T'Chaka?
 
Bucky either way he is going to have to spend the rest of his life running I mean the Accords basically are the reason for that but more so everyone knows who he is in the world...wherever he goes he will be instantly recognized which is why in Wakanda he was frozen there but then won't Wakandans want his head because of King T'Chaka?

Bucky is cleared of killing King T'Chaka; it's why BP handed Zemo over to the government.
 
From what we saw in CW, HYDRA is essentially dead and buried. Pierce's death in TWS and Nat's leaking of the files means they have no power anywhere, because everyone knows their secrets. Rumlow was acting for himself (or as a terrorist faction) in the beginning of CW, IIRC. And that former HYDRA officer gets seemed to have given up that life since then.
Also thrown in events from Agents of SHIELD as well to add to Hydra's current status. The episode that was on a week ago (or maybe it was the one before that), where (spoilers for Season 3 of Agents of SHIELD)

A number of remaining Hydra bases were taken out thanks to intell that Gideon Malick (former World Security Council member and one of the heads of Hydra) was able to spill before being killed

By no means do I think Hydra is gone for good (there's always going to be some cell hidden and stewing somewhere), but they've been dealt a serious blow and are crippled - I think it will be quite some time before they grow enough to be able to go up against anyone anytime soon ([BLACKOUT]let alone having the resources to be able to go against a nation like Wakanda[/BLACKOUT])
 
Even if Bucky is cleared that doesn't mean that the rest of the world will accept him with open arms
 
Even if Bucky is cleared that doesn't mean that the rest of the world will accept him with open arms

I know. I was referring to the people of Wakanda.

I have a feeling that his presence there will create some unrest in the BP solo movie. There's already going to be some political unrest seeing how T'Challa is the new king, and like in every government body, there's going to be people in his government that don't agree with some of his decisions, but i feel that T'Challa's decision to basically offer safe haven to Bucky (and possibly some of the other Avengers) will cause a lot of unrest in BP's solo movie.

The world might see BP's actions as a sign of war, and his people might trying to overthrow him. We'll see......
 
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Well yeah the Wakandans well some of them will see his actions as causing unrest even members of his own family like his sister Shuri or his mother Ramonda might even be against what he is doing but will support him anyway
 
I know. I was referring to the people of Wakanda.

I have a feeling that his presence there will create some unrest in the BP solo movie. There's already going to be some political unrest seeing how T'Chaka is the new king, and like in every government body, there's going to be people in his government that don't agree with some of his decisions, but i feel that T'Chaka's decision to basically offer safe haven to Bucky (and possibly some of the other Avengers) will cause a lot of unrest in BP's solo movie.

The world might see BP's actions as a sign of war, and his people might trying to overthrow him. We'll see......
Psst... think you meant to put T'Challa, not T'Chaka ;)
 
I know. I was referring to the people of Wakanda.

I have a feeling that his presence there will create some unrest in the BP solo movie. There's already going to be some political unrest seeing how T'Challa is the new king, and like in every government body, there's going to be people in his government that don't agree with some of his decisions, but i feel that T'Challa's decision to basically offer safe haven to Bucky (and possibly some of the other Avengers) will cause a lot of unrest in BP's solo movie.

The world might see BP's actions as a sign of war, and his people might trying to overthrow him. We'll see......
Ooh yeah that would be really interesting and compelling! That makes T'Challa a lot like Steve then, doing what he thinks is right over the possible political ramifications.
 
Even if Bucky is cleared that doesn't mean that the rest of the world will accept him with open arms

In the comics Bucky is cleared of all his crimes committed on American soil, but when he's released the Russians grab him and try him for all the crimes he commited on Russian soil (as a way to get back for him turning on them) and they throw him in a Russian Gulag...such an awesome story..I definitely recommend looking it up
 
Bucky remembers every person he murdered. You'll have to excuse him for not being sunshine and rainbows. But keep complaining about everything like you do on every single board.

I didn't say a word about him being happy or "sunshine and rainbows". I said there wasn't much character work done.

Since you can't be civil ("every board"?), you'll be ignored.
 
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