The Dark Knight Wizard talks Batman sequal

[Keyser Sushi]

Fair enough - he IS supposed to be a very talented attorney before he goes bonkers. Tommy Lee Jones, bless his wrinkled little heart, was pure baked ham as Two-Face, with his origin being given a two-second mention on a television show. He was fun to watch, certainly, but Two-Face could have been done a whole lot better.

LOL. Yes Batman Forever gave Two-Face the shaft on sooo many levels. As you said, the barely-there origin and Tomm Lee Jones's ridiculous performance. There was also the fact that with the origin being mostly missing, there was virtually no attention given to Harvey's relationship to Batman, except in passing references when they knew they needed the viewer to know about it. But it lacked any emotional resonance, which really bugged the hell out of me.

 

[StorminNorman]

When Tommy Lee and Jim Carrey get into a contest to see who can play the campiest villian ever - we all lose.

 

[AnimeJune]

LOL. Yes Batman Forever gave Two-Face the shaft on sooo many levels. As you said, the barely-there origin and Tomm Lee Jones's ridiculous performance. There was also the fact that with the origin being mostly missing, there was virtually no attention given to Harvey's relationship to Batman, except in passing references when they knew they needed the viewer to know about it. But it lacked any emotional resonance, which really bugged the hell out of me.

I know. The Riddler is a funny villain - I can understand why they'd cast Jim Carrey. Two-Face never came across as anything but serious, so why he'd be making that "wine and roses, or in your case, pizza and beer" comment is still beyond me. The makeup, however, was quite good - and, yes, his halfway house and Drew Barrymore in Cherub getup.

When Tommy Lee and Jim Carrey get into a contest to see who can play the campiest villian ever - we all lose.

Exactly - NO ONE outcamps Jim Carrey. Tommy Lee trying to outcamp Jim Carrey is like William Hung trying to outsing Beyonce.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I know. The Riddler is a funny villain - I can understand why they'd cast Jim Carrey. Two-Face never came across as anything but serious, so why he'd be making that "wine and roses, or in your case, pizza and beer" comment is still beyond me. The makeup, however, was quite good - and, yes, his halfway house and Drew Barrymore in Cherub getup.

****ty cherub. Sugar and Spice, LOL. The whole portrayal of Two-Face was comic -- some of it was indeed very funny, but as you say, not really in character. The makeup was okay, except the mouth still bothers me, and the fact that the scarred side of his head, where they'd made it appear that his ear was burned off, was bigger than the unscarred side. It looked fake, but it was done fairly well for a low-tech solution. I didn't like his suit, though. Too much. Way too much.

Exactly - NO ONE outcamps Jim Carrey. Tommy Lee trying to outcamp Jim Carrey is like William Hung trying to outsing Beyonce.

LOL! Or William Hung trying to outsing Pavarotti.

For the record, though, Riddler isn't really a funny villain. I mean he's been portrayed that way, yes; but really he's a calculating genius who just doesn't like being a social outcast. He wants to prove he's smarter than everybody else. IMO it's okay to get comic mileage out of it, as long as the character is not intentionally being funny.

 

[AnimeJune]

****ty cherub. Sugar and Spice, LOL. The whole portrayal of Two-Face was comic -- some of it was indeed very funny, but as you say, not really in character. The makeup was okay, except the mouth still bothers me, and the fact that the scarred side of his head, where they'd made it appear that his ear was burned off, was bigger than the unscarred side. It looked fake, but it was done fairly well for a low-tech solution. I didn't like his suit, though. Too much. Way too much.



LOL! Or William Hung trying to outsing Pavarotti.

For the record, though, Riddler isn't really a funny villain. I mean he's been portrayed that way, yes; but really he's a calculating genius who just doesn't like being a social outcast. He wants to prove he's smarter than everybody else. IMO it's okay to get comic mileage out of it, as long as the character is not intentionally being funny.

True...still - you know the actor who played the 60s Riddler? I forget his name - he basically went back and did that on last year's season finale of CSI (the one directed by Tarantino) right before he died. He traps one of the CSIs in a mechanical glass coffin, and his voice on the tape player he leaves on the dude...took me back to when I was ten and they used to show the old Batman episodes on tV.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

True...still - you know the actor who played the 60s Riddler? I forget his name - he basically went back and did that on last year's season finale of CSI (the one directed by Tarantino) right before he died. He traps one of the CSIs in a mechanical glass coffin, and his voice on the tape player he leaves on the dude...took me back to when I was ten and they used to show the old Batman episodes on tV.

There were two Riddlers on that old show, actually... but do you mean Frank Gorshin? Frank Gorshin was awesome.

I don't watch CSI, though. I prefer my cop shows to be... realistic.

 

[Bat Attack]

True...still - you know the actor who played the 60s Riddler? I forget his name - he basically went back and did that on last year's season finale of CSI (the one directed by Tarantino) right before he died. He traps one of the CSIs in a mechanical glass coffin, and his voice on the tape player he leaves on the dude...took me back to when I was ten and they used to show the old Batman episodes on tV.

Frank Gorshin.

 

[AnimeJune]

There were two Riddlers on that old show, actually... but do you mean Frank Gorshin? Frank Gorshin was awesome.

I don't watch CSI, though. I prefer my cop shows to be... realistic.

Yes, Frank Gorshin - on the tape, he was saying, "Tick-tock, CSI, you're gonna die in here" or something to that effect, it was excellent.

THEN he blows himself up! Awesome!

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Yes, Frank Gorshin - on the tape, he was saying, "Tick-tock, CSI, you're gonna die in here" or something to that effect, it was excellent.

THEN he blows himself up! Awesome!

Wow, excellent. I don't like CSI but I might be convinced to watch that episode for Frank Gorshin -- AKA "I'm black on the LEFT side!!! He's black on the RIGHT!!! DON'T YOU SEE?!?!?"

 

[Nightwing 52]

There were two Riddlers on that old show, actually... but do you mean Frank Gorshin? Frank Gorshin was awesome.

True, true. Gorshin was really the ideal Riddler of his prime and time while on the show. Call it wishful thinking if you will, but if he were alive today I'd would've loved to see him make a very small cameo in Nolan's franchise. Not as the Riddler, but only to pay homage of always being part of the Bat-verse. Now that would've been great to see.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

True, true. Gorshin was really the ideal Riddler of his prime and time while on the show. Call it wishful thinking if you will, but if he were alive today I'd would've loved to see him make a very small cameo in Nolan's franchise. Not as the Riddler, but only to pay homage of always being part of the Bat-verse. Now that would've been great to see.

I agree. Gorshin was, in fact, ideal... he had the look and he had the right kidn of presence, too. The right demeanor. If it had been a serious Batman show, Gorshin would still have been perfect.

And it would have been cool for him to show up in a BB sequel someplace, too, I agree. He could easily have had a small cameo.

 

[Nightwing 52]

I agree. Gorshin was, in fact, ideal... he had the look and he had the right kidn of presence, too. The right demeanor. If it had been a serious Batman show, Gorshin would still have been perfect.

Even if it was a serious based film, I believe he would've been the best. Not to mention he always had that schemish look like he always had one last trick up his sleeve. Which of course was always a great trait, considering that's half of what Riddler is all about. Catching you off guard right when you think you've beaten him. And I agree, his presence really was a factor.

And it would have been cool for him to show up in a BB sequel someplace, too, I agree. He could easily have had a small cameo.

Way I imagine it happening is that he has a problem which only a D.A. can fix, that D.A. being Harvey Dent...

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Even if it was a serious based film, I believe he would've been the best. Not to mention he always had that schemish look like he always had one last trick up his sleeve. Which of course was always a great trait, considering that's half of what Riddler is all about. Catching you off guard right when you think you've beaten him. And I agree, his presence really was a factor.

Yeah, Gorshin was awesome. ???

I agree about the look, too - everything about him screamed "tricksy"... he seemed smart and nutty and devious and he looked all those things, too. I think to this day Frank Gorshin influences the way most of us think of the Riddler.

Way I imagine it happening is that he has a problem which only a D.A. can fix, that D.A. being Harvey Dent...

Ahhh, right on.

 

[Nightwing 52]

Yeah, Gorshin was awesome. ???

I agree about the look, too - everything about him screamed "tricksy"... he seemed smart and nutty and devious and he looked all those things, too. I think to this day Frank Gorshin influences the way most of us think of the Riddler.

Exactly. Every episode that involved him, showed him with that devious grin he put on. As if to say we never knew what he was planning, all we had to do was watch to find out. I think that's one of the main reasons why so many became fond of his view on the character, and how he brought him to life. I've yet to see anyone that can out act him in the terms of wits he put in, when playing Riddler. And I doubt we ever will.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Exactly. Every episode that involved him, showed him with that devious grin he put on. As if to say we never knew what he was planning, all we had to do was watch to find out. I think that's one of the main reasons why so many became fond of his view on the character, and how he brought him to life. I've yet to see anyone that can out act him in the terms of wits he put in, when playing Riddler. And I doubt we ever will.

Yeah, he was one of those rare instances of perfect casting... like Chris Reeve as Superman, or Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn... Frank Gorshin IS the Riddler, and always will be. He's the mental image we all have. Anybody trying to play the role has basically two options:

1.) Try to rip off Gorshin (which is nigh impossible since it was just something about the man)

2.) Try to reinterpret the character (which is equally pointless in a sense, as it takes us farther from the character's roots). Witness Jim Carrey, who dwelt on the physical aspects of Gorshin's performance but left out the real sense of intelligence and menace that always lay underneath with Gorshin.

I do believe, however, that the right actor can maybe equal Gorshin by honestly doing his own thing, and not relying on the memory of what has come before. There's good material for an actor in the Riddler as frustrated intellectual who has no social skills, the man who needs to prove he's smarter than everybody.

 

[AnimeJune]

Yeah, he was one of those rare instances of perfect casting... like Chris Reeve as Superman, or Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn... Frank Gorshin IS the Riddler, and always will be. He's the mental image we all have. Anybody trying to play the role has basically two options:

1.) Try to rip off Gorshin (which is nigh impossible since it was just something about the man)

2.) Try to reinterpret the character (which is equally pointless in a sense, as it takes us farther from the character's roots). Witness Jim Carrey, who dwelt on the physical aspects of Gorshin's performance but left out the real sense of intelligence and menace that always lay underneath with Gorshin.

I do believe, however, that the right actor can maybe equal Gorshin by honestly doing his own thing, and not relying on the memory of what has come before. There's good material for an actor in the Riddler as frustrated intellectual who has no social skills, the man who needs to prove he's smarter than everybody.

While I understand why you guys are such fans of Frank Gorshin, it does seem a little unreasonable to say that no one in the world will be able to do a better job than Gorshin. I wouldn't want a new Riddler to be exactly the same as Gorshin's. The Batman comics, and their villains, have been through the blender for what? 60 years? How many different writers and comic series has the Riddler been in?

Reinterpreting the Riddler is the best idea for a different actor, I think - it explores a very popular character in ways that may have been overlooked.

 

[Cinemaman]

I think Riddler will have 2 scenes in BB3 as new villian.

Because it will not be so exciting to see only Two-Face and Joker from BB2.

Riddler will have very small part in third movie.

 

[AnimeJune]

I think Riddler will have 2 scenes in BB3 as new villian.

Because it will not be so exciting to see only Two-Face and Joker from BB2.

Riddler will have very small part in third movie.

Two-Face + Riddler + Put in same room together = unpleasant Batman Forever flashbacks.

 

[ultimatefan]

People always mention one particular storyline they want the movie to be based on, but the thing is, it´s most likely to be a combination of different stories, like Begin was.

 

[The Batman]

Gorshin's Riddler is pretty much the only version of the character i can see standing toe to toe with the likes of joker and two face. Wouldnt mind seeing him or penguin in a small role in the sequel

 

[Keyser Sushi]

While I understand why you guys are such fans of Frank Gorshin, it does seem a little unreasonable to say that no one in the world will be able to do a better job than Gorshin. I wouldn't want a new Riddler to be exactly the same as Gorshin's. The Batman comics, and their villains, have been through the blender for what? 60 years? How many different writers and comic series has the Riddler been in?

Alright, babe - first off, I never said a new Riddler should be exactly the same as Gorshin's. In fact I'm fairly certain I said this would be a bad thing, because only Gorshin can be Gorshin. What I said was that an actor portraying Riddler has to do his own thing in order to get out of the shadow of Gorshin. I think I stuffed up some of what I'd meant to say, but I was trying to say that Jim Carrey's problem was that he had Gorshin on the brain. He tried to reinterpret the character but he was too conscious of Gorshin's work, so it created that total miscarriage of a performance in "Forever."

Reinterpreting the Riddler is the best idea for a different actor, I think - it explores a very popular character in ways that may have been overlooked.

It is, but in order to do it he has to forget Gorshin, otherwise he probably runs too far in a different direction; or else rips off Gorshin wholesale, which would be a bad thing. You see what I'm saying now?

I love arguing with you. I don't think I've ever been able to say that about a woman before.

Gorshin's Riddler is pretty much the only version of the character i can see standing toe to toe with the likes of joker and two face. Wouldnt mind seeing him or penguin in a small role in the sequel.

I agree. What I'm hoping is that an actor, when given the chance, can bring equal strength to the character without ripping off Gorshin.

 

[Katsuro]

Man, all this talk about Frank Gorshin is making me want to watch the old TV series again. It's been so long since i've seen it. I'm pretty sure my video store carries it, maybe i'll go rent it...

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Man, all this talk about Frank Gorshin is making me want to watch the old TV series again. It's been so long since i've seen it. I'm pretty sure my video store carries it, maybe i'll go rent it...

It's been doing that to me, too, but I think if I watched it I wouldn't be able to wax nostalgic anymore. Instead I'd be... disturbed. I'd like to just get a clips reel of Frank Gorshin as Riddler and Yvonne Craig as Batgirl. That makes it all worthwhile.

Especially Yvonne Craig.

 

[Nightwing 52]

I do believe, however, that the right actor can maybe equal Gorshin by honestly doing his own thing, and not relying on the memory of what has come before. There's good material for an actor in the Riddler as frustrated intellectual who has no social skills, the man who needs to prove he's smarter than everybody.

I believe that there's an actor who can match wits with what Gorshin accomplished as well, it's just a question of who. As long as they don't "rip him off," as you put it. I have to ask though, who in your opinion would be suitable for the role?

Edward Norton has been a personal choice of mine for as long as I can remember. But I see him more of Jim Lee's version of the character in Hush, besides that he's just a good an actor as anyone else in the movie business. David Hyde Pierce has also been a choice I favor, he's got that Riddler esque look to him as well.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I believe that there's an actor who can match wits with what Gorshin accomplished as well, it's just a question of who. As long as they don't "rip him off," as you put it. I have to ask though, who in your opinion would be suitable for the role?

Edward Norton has been a personal choice of mine for as long as I can remember. But I see him more of Jim Lee's version of the character in Hush, besides that he's just a good an actor as anyone else in the movie business. David Hyde Pierce has also been a choice I favor, he's got that Riddler esque look to him as well.

I've never really had an actor in mind. There's nobody who pops out to me as being immediately perfect for the role, but admittedly I haven't given it much thought. I like Ed Norton and David Hyde Pierce, and I could easily see either of them as Riddler. I think David Hyde Pierce would be really good as a TAS-style Riddler, honestly, though I can see him being a little screwier, too. That's not a bad choice at all.

And Ed Norton is always great.