Wonder Woman 1984 SPOILER Review Thread

Discussion in 'Wonder Woman 1984' started by FeedOnATreeFrog, Dec 16, 2020.

  1. TheVileOne Registered

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    I think it was meant to be a conflicted, warts and all, view of the 80s. A time of great and groundbreaking art, but also a time of great excess; truly the best and worst of humanity on display.
     
  2. Frodo Registered

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    As much as I'm a fan of the 80s(I'm an 80s kid), I think that 1968 would have been a better follow up to as a time period to WW1.

    Yeah, the 80s had excess and greed and materialism ,but in terms of truly big issues, it was nothing compared to previous generations in terms of conflict , and the larger themes that were addressed in WW1.

    The 80s, in America at least, was peace time. No, it wasn't perfect , but it really wasn't a time of great social change and conflict in the States.

    1968 However, you get the whole kitten caboodle between Vietnam, Anti-War protests, the civil rights movement, the growing women's rights movement, The cold war, the Greatest Generation vs The Baby boomers , rock , folk, soul, motown music etc.

    That context would be a much more compelling and interesting to see Gadot's Diana confront and deal with.

    How would she view humanity in the late 60s? How would she fit in in such a radical and polarizing time? How would she respond to the young generation? Where would she stand in relation to the US Government, assuming the story took place in the US? How much would it tear her up to see people fighting in the streets or to see racial segregation?

    To me , that would be a much more interesting story to tell than reliving 80s nostalgia. Then again, my guess is that WB wouldn't want to touch several of those issues given how some of them are still flashpoints to a some Americans.

    In that sense, the 80s are very safe in comparison to the 60s.
     
  3. Pearls Registered

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    Fixing the disjointedness: Backseat Director's cut continued.

    At the end of the dogfight over DC, just when all seems to have been settled in peace, then the sirens go off in the city once again with the announcement, "Nuclear missile approaching." So WW dashes to her apartment, dons the golden armor, essentially hugs incoming nuke, wrapping it in golden wings, and thus she contains it when it explodes, doing no damage.

    Reason: cool to see, heroic and self sacrificing, gives the golden armor something to do other than be shredded by a cat, explains why the cat could shred it - because it was weakened by a nuke.

    And after barely surviving that ("Sorry, Asteria. I think I cracked your armor.") WW knows she has to go to the source to put an end to the randomness, and flies off to Maxwell's broadcast island.

    A well constructed plot ties everything together; if something is in the story, it has a reason to be there and serves the purpose of the plot.

    Patty loves to pay homage to other films in her films, but 1000 homages does not make a plot. For example, if asked why there is a body swap in her film, she says, "A lot of 80's films had body swaps," as though that is an answer. The question is, what purpose does the body swap serve in your film, and does it serve the plot and fit with the rules of the McGuffin, or does it just raise a lot of questions?

    Let's do a post mortem of WW84 and ask, where did it go wrong, in the creative process? And the answer is: at the story, at the script. Here is the story: struggling father learns greatness is being a daddy. Notice, the main story has nothing to do with WW. Here is the subplot: Lonely heroine wishes her true love back, but then renounces him so she can save the world. Not bad, although we would expect some heroic fireworks after she renounces him, rather than lying down in a corner talking.

    And the other subplot: nerd embraces wickedness along with new found superpowers. Not alot in that one. Barbara's moral decline seemed hard to believe, actually. Would have been better if she were *possessed* by the evil cat spirit, like in the comics, and retained her core of goodness.

    WW84 ended up being a very self indulgent bulletin board of Patty's favorite things. She tacked Lynda Carter in there, tacked this and that. Tacked flying in there, but - again - there was no reason to fly. WW did not engage fighter jets in the sky; she did not battle Silver Swan in the sky. She just flew for the sake of flying; it was tacked on without serving a purpose. Like the golden armor and Lynda, and the invisible jet, and all Patty's other favorite things. They're all in the film, and none of them serve a purpose for being there.

    So what WW84 really needed, right at the beginning, was a clear story, and the discipline to keep everything tied to the plot, and exclude extraneous things which do not serve the plot.

    For the first WW film, Patty inherited the story and the script (they were already in place). This was a blessing! The story: young heroine leaves home to save mankind, and discovers love and her true identity along the way. Wow, what a great plot, and everything in the film serves that story line. Like an arrow, the story flies from start to finish, from the brightness of Themyscira through an increasingly darkening world, until the final struggle in a hellish night. And her character development is one of increasing self awareness and increasing power. It is a very linear story, told in straight lines. WW84 is a meandering collage of the director's favorite things.

    So, for next time, start with a better story, a better story teller (script), and the discipline to stick to it. No wandering off the path to pick a flower or put on golden armor for no reason, etc.

    As a great writer once said: "If you introduce a gun in the first act, you have to fire it by the third act." Similarly, if you introduce golden armor with wings in the first act, you better use it to block a nuke in the sky by the third act.
     
    #678 Pearls, Jan 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
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  4. The Caped Knight Shield Avenger

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  5. #root Registered

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    I watched it a few days ago and I thought it was ok. Didn’t hate it, didn’t love it. I think I wasn’t a huge fan of the original either so maybe that’s why I don’t have as big of a reaction to it as most people here seem to be having. Plus, I don’t like Gadot :O. Pine and Pascal were both fun to watch but I wish their characters had better story/writing.

    The best part for me was Wiig’s Barbara who I really liked and wanted to see more of. Even when she was going bad, I was still rooting for her. I really hope she comes back in a sequel and she gets a bigger, more pivotal role.
     
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  6. Primal Slayer Let the Siren scream

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    On my 5th/6th and likely final watch.
    The "seduction" of Barbara by Max to get the stone wasnt thought out at all.

    It still makes no sense how the lasso got Max at the end. The last thing we see is Diana failing and slumping to the ground. Then the lasso magically appears around Max's leg.
     
    #681 Primal Slayer, Jan 17, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
  7. InvisibleWoman Registered

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    Oh dear. Wonder Woman 1984 was supposed to be the shining light at the end of what has been a pretty dark year but I am SO disappointed.

    It opened really strong... and then the mall scene happened. It just felt so cheesy and not the good kind of cheese. I was physically cringing a bit. I hoped that it would get better but it just kinda limped along.

    I never really felt the true scope of how damaging the wish fulfilments were and why were there no good wishes? Surely someone out there wished for world peace and no nuclear weapons? Didn't one person think "I wish that giant wall that just appeared separating us from clean water would disappear"? It just didn't seem very well thought out. Or maybe I missed a plot point.

    I actually thought Kristen was good as Barbara but as Cheetah she was criminally underused. They clearly weren't confident with the visuals because the fight was so dark I could barely see what she really looked like. Also not sure why Diana felt the need to bust out her gold armour for the occasion as she clearly didn't need it. The fight felt like it was over and done with too quickly.

    I felt the whole body takeover plot wasn't needed. Someone else mentioned how it would have been better had Steve been ripped from his time just a few seconds before his death and brought to the future... it would have made his choice to go back to that moment (knowing a few seconds later he'd die) so much more powerful.

    This is going to now sound nitpicky... I loved the score (I bought it immediately) which made it all the more baffling to me that they used music from other movies. Beautiful Lie from BvS is one of my favourite tracks from that movie so I recognised it immediately and it totally took me out of the moment. Same for the Adagio from Sunshine. Did Hans Zimmer not have time to create music for those scenes? I don't understand. I just found it super jarring.

    Now onto the good points... Gal Gadot is wonderful. I love her.

    Chris Pine was also really good but I felt he appeared and disappeared too quickly. I sort of wish he had stayed til the very end.

    I loved the scene where the jet flew through the fireworks. That was pretty.

    As mentioned before, I liked the score. The new WW theme is a bit more uplifting, but still a nod to the theme created in BvS.

    Just a few of my thoughts. As a huge WW fan I was disappointed, but I think that's just a testament to how GOOD the first movie is. I'm all for the third movie and hope they dial down the cheese and stick with what made the first one a classic.

    EDIT: Wow this post was longer than I expected. Sorry for the essay.
     
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  8. djsunyc Registered

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    she tried to replicate the whedon scene where aquaman was sitting on the lasso w/o even knowing it.

    jenkins had a rough idea that went sideways. imho, the movie was very disappointing.
     
  9. flickchick85 Admin of Might

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    It's like she said earlier in the film, the lasso isn't powered by her, it's powered by The Truth. It wrapped around Max because the Truth was ready to have its day, imo, as Diana in that moment was ready to fully embrace it and share it.
     
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  10. lespaul59 Registered

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    I disagree because unless I've missed something the lasso still has to be thrown and you clearly see Diana trying to throw the lasso and it's blown away from Max. Then she gets knocked down and the lasso just ends up around Max's ankle. And at least to me it doesn't look like Diana does anything while laying there. So are we supposed to believe the lasso can move on it's own? I don't want to accuse any body of being lazy but to me this seems like a case of we're not sure how to make this work so lets do it off screen. There just seems to be a whole lot of how does that work and the answer is because it's magic in this movie.

    I'm having trouble finding the words I want to use right now because there is a lot I want to say but I also don't want to be insulting to the people who made this movie. So I'm stopping here until I can better word what I want to say.
     
  11. flickchick85 Admin of Might

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    The lasso ABSOLUTELY moves on its own. You can see it doing so in various action scenes, and the way it propels Diana into flight. It does not move in any way that resembles real-world physics from Diana slinging it. Diana didn't sling it around Aquaman's leg in JL either. It found him because he was having a moment of feeling vulnerable/honest. Which is why they had Diana give that explanation about it being powered NOT by her, but by Truth. It is a magical lasso powered by forces beyond human capability or science. And that power just so happens to be Truth, which Diana was channeling in that exact moment it wrapped around Max's leg. If that doesn't work for you, that's fine, but it's explained as such in the film.
     
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  12. The Shape In the shadows

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    Aquaman was sitting on the lasso in JL, if memory serves me. (Ridiculous scene)
     
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  13. Bren Forevernoob

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    Thought the lasso suddenly being wrapped around his leg was... odd at best, stupid and contradictory at worst.
    But these are all opinions and I'm fine if others feel differently.
     
  14. Delwin Registered

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    I have not been disappointed by the superhero movie for a long time... Sorry, folks but this movie is simply weak. Up until the moment Steve appears and he is trying to "accustom" to 80s is fine. And then - really bad. Plot, actions, everything. Sorry, but it is ten times worse than original WW which was best DC movie since Nolan trilogy.
     
  15. fan4stic Registered

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    I think the fiction of movie presents the idea that the wishes are things that aren't the way they are now, and so, aren't the truth, but a cheat, and a lie, and will inevitably self destruct. In reality, using magic to wish for things, is evil, because magic is evil, no matter what you use it for. I think the Holy Bible speaks on that.
    I'm fine with laying on the ideas of it being more of the least positive manifestation of what she wants. He's already gone. He's died. So, he can't be there.
     
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  16. MOVIELORD101 Utter Smeghead

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    I STILL get the feeling Max Lord was NOT intended by Jenkins to be in this movie and his inclusion was studio meddling. Jenkins clearly had Cheeta, the wishing stone and Steve's return all planned from the start, but WB got cold feet because of the stupid "female villain won't sell toys BS". Aka the same crap Marvel's "Creative committee" did to Iron Man 3 when they added Guy Pierce to the cast when Maya was intended to be the villain initially!

    Anyone else think this?
     
  17. Primal Slayer Let the Siren scream

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    Patty has been very open about studio meddling. If Max was forced upon her...we wouldve known.
     
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  18. UncleSam1776 Registered

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    Just going to leave this right here.

     
  19. dhandler01 I'm a dick vampire aren't I?!

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    Yeah there is no way Lord was forced on her she has been pimping his inclusion forever.
     
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  20. UncleSam1776 Registered

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    Maxwell Lord was definitely a Geoff Johns idea. The character appears in a lot of stuff Geoff Johns has written (Infinite Crisis, Blackest Night and Brightest Day).
     
  21. dhandler01 I'm a dick vampire aren't I?!

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    Oh I am sure he suggested it...but she wasn't forced to use him and it would be revisionist history to take the blame from her about it. We would have heard by now (from her most likely based on how she was after the release) if this was a Spiderman 3 situation.

    Honestly, with how lame Cheetah turned out to be, probably lucked out anyways.
     
  22. Kev4000 Registered

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    Main Analysis starts at 11:00, Im just some minutes in but he make some serious points how bad the writing is imo.
     
  23. fan4stic Registered

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    I skimmed through 11:00 to 27:24, I don't really agree. His note about the dialogue in the cafe scene, I can think there are some writing issues there, but with the "Have you ever been in love?" line, I don't necessarily agree with. Diana and Barbara are talking about their lives and Diana tells her that life has struggles. Barbara asks if she's ever been in love. I may think the line is a maybe forced one, but I think in regards to hearing her talk about her life, she asks if she's ever been in love, to gauge about more of how her life has been, in a way. That's my opinion. I don't fully agree about the toxic moral angle either. I don't think you can control what people get from a movie, and that someone can get something that may not be intended, whether poorly written or not. In The Dark Knight, when I watched it as a teen, in my edgy teen-ism, I took the Joker's stance fairly directly. As an adult, purely thanks to having found God, I think I've seen the other aspects of the movie.
     
  24. blackdragon6 Registered

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    I don't like Godot either, I just accept it for what it is. It still didn't stop me from enjoying her in WW2017 or ZSJL. WW84 just kinda broke my heart tho, like Blade Trinity did.
     
  25. SiegePerilous Registered

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    It's probably something that should have been questioned, because multiple villains in CBMs hasn't always worked out, even going back to Batman Returns. That was one of the better done examples, but it was still a mess. Better to leave Max on the cutting room floor and put more effort into Cheetah (on multiple fronts- writing AND effects), because as it stands Max was too hammy and didn't lend himself to very good action. And the villain who actually matters was short changed.

    That and I'm sick of Max being inserted into WW stuff when he isn't even a WW character, and the one storyline he was in has been a cancer for the IP since it was published. If we had to have a second villain, at least use Dr. Psycho or something.
     

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