Wonder Woman - Review Thread [TAG SPOILERS]

[Loki882]

The climax also ties into something else that occurred to me. And it's one of the highest compliments that I can pay this movie. It's one of the relatively few films that gets BETTER the more times that I see it. I pick up one more subtle moments, and nice little details, and thematic stuff, etc.

Ares, becomes a more interesting villain the more times that I see the film (he's actually somewhat more interesting here than he tends to be in the comics, imo), the climax works better the more times that I see it, both visually and thematically, Diana herself becomes even more likeable and endearing, Steve's team feels more necessary, it actually enhances certain moments in BVS in retrospect, etc.

Ironically, the only things that are hurt somewhat upon repeat viewings for me, are relatively minor things. The most notable of these being the framing device. But that's a pretty minor one as well.

Also the film makes it very clear that Ares DIDN'T cause the war. He's just trying to keep it going in hopes that humanity will wipe each other out. Heck he flat-out says that. And in case you still didn't get it, Diana uses the lasso on him and demands that he tell her the truth, and he simply states that he already is.

Also Patty Jenkins has said that Diana doesn't kill most of her enemies. She either just breaks their weapons, or uses the sword in such a way that she may injure them, but they don't die. The only real kills that she has, are that one sniper, and some of the soldiers near the end (where she loses control temporarily for obvious/understandable reasons).

And even if she did kill, the reason why it doesn't bother most people is simple:

-She comes from a warrior culture (we see the Amazons kill ALL of the German solders on .the beach, so clearly they're not above killing their enemies).
-WW doesn't have the firm "no-kill" rule that Batman and Superman has even in the comics.
-It's freaking WWI. It's like Captain America in WWII, the situation fits better. In war, you might have to kill your opponents sometimes. It sucks, and you can try and avoid it as much as possible, but it's just kind of expected.
-Etc.

 

[Willi Berg]

I guess i'm the odd ball and I don't enjoy as much as you guys. the wow factor is low to say it blandly.

Why did WW walk away from mankind??? was she betrayed??? did she see the ugly sides of the mankind??? or it was too painful losing her love???

I found WW movie contradicting it's own premise and BvS. She met mostly the good people. people fighting and the bad people... because Ares poisoned them by planting evil ideas into their mind. once she killed Ares, all the Germans took off the hideous masks, and shown their good looking innocent faces. what a beautiful world... therefore people are beautiful and good just like what in her mind. so why still walk away???

i thought she should continue protecting them... as all she has seen are good people and suffering... and from the dialogue at the end of BvS, you would have thought the humankind has betrayed her and disappointed her too deeply. but it wasn't the case.

the sudden appeareance of Ares in the end piss me off no end. it destroyed everything. (earlier WW thought humankind was destroying each other and not because of Ares) and i also didn't get the romance. when did she fall for him??? love in 1st sight???

and if a god slaying sword didn't exist, what kinda sword she used to chop off Doomsday's hand??? she disappeared after WW1 and she couldn't return to amazon. therefore, she only has 1 fighting experience i suppose (since she walked away) why made her so expert in fighting??? and be able to withstand Doomsday???!!! and i suppose her power would 'upgrade' just like any video game... earlier bullets can stop her and harm her??? she couldn't ever break free from a metal plate!!!??? anyway, her final power (after defeating Ares) can't match superman's power. therefore making BvS final shown questionable. and i thought Zack said she was 400+ years old!!!???

And no one blink an eye when she slaughtered. because they were bad Germans??? wasn't she written as some sorta of god of love; using mostly shield and rope; to protect instead of to kill???

my conclusion is... Critics dictate and rule. WW wasn't put under a microscope like they did to previous DCEU movies. As long as they love and like the movie, it will be praised no end and triumph. Critics are the King maker.

i have seen a better WW.

In the sequel for WW I don't believe you will see her walk away from mankind. She will continue to live among humans and fight for them. How exactly, we will have to wait and see.

The director Patty Jenkins and Gal Gadot said by the time they reached the end of making the movie they decided that it would be out of character for Diana to walk away from mankind, that the movie was all about her finding hope for mankind. Again, we don't know how they will address this in the sequel.

She doesn't need a "god-slaying" sword to kill Doomsday. We don't know yet where she will get this BvS sword, what will happen to her in the time between this movie and BvS. She works with antiquities in the museum, maybe she discovers it. Or maybe she does return to Themyscira. I'm sure she will fight more monsters, more villains, between this movie and BvS. Again, you are assuming all the answers are here and won't be addressed in a sequel.

Basically, you seem to have all these questions where you want it to tie to BvS exactly right now, and so it falls apart for you. When these are questions more for the sequel. Not this movie.

As for her powers, you will notice she was trapped in the metal plate until she realised what she was fighting for, her emotions overwhelming her, overcoming her fear and doubt, giving the power to keep fighting, discovering her true powers.

I don't see why you would doubt her powers against Doomsday. That was a different kind of villain to Ares. Doomsday was more a physical threat, and she matched that with her fighting abilities and warrior skill.

Patty Jenkins has said in an interview that she knows WW killing would be controversial to some, but it wasn't controversial for Patty. It was what she wanted. She wanted Diana to get the job done when necessary and, as said, because she is from a warrior culture. They have set beliefs about battle and fighting, while still having ideals about love and peace etc.

I don't think it is just the critics making this movie a hit. A lot of movies get good reviews from critics and the public aren't interested. It is more the general public loving this movie. It is not necessarily us "fanboys" or people who like superhero movies, who analyse these movies so much. I don't think the public gives a **** about these kinds of nitpicks. They just like the movie.

 

[Micromind]

I guess i'm the odd ball and I don't enjoy as much as you guys. the wow factor is low to say it blandly..

..

Why did WW walk away from mankind??? was she betrayed??? did she see the ugly sides of the mankind??? or it was too painful losing her love???.

She didnt walk away, just decided to help others discreetly, and yes Wars are ugly.

I found WW movie contradicting it's own premise and BvS. She met mostly the good people. people fighting and the bad people... because Ares poisoned them by planting evil ideas into their mind. once she killed Ares, all the Germans took off the hideous masks, and shown their good looking innocent faces. what a beautiful world... therefore people are beautiful and good just like what in her mind. so why still walk away???

Diana learned that people have the capability to be good and bad. It's not black and white world. Ares was not entirely responsible for everything that was bad in the world..

and if a god slaying sword didn't exist, what kinda sword she used to chop off Doomsday's hand???

She could have revisited Themysicra after World War 1, or she could have got that sword while dealing with antiques. We don't know yet.

she disappeared after WW1 and she couldn't return to amazon. therefore, she only has 1 fighting experience i suppose (since she walked away) why made her so expert in fighting???

Diana trained to be a warrior for many years. By your logic Captain America also shouldn't have much fighting experience.

i suppose her power would 'upgrade' just like any video game... earlier bullets can stop her and harm her??? .

Yes.

she couldn't ever break free from a metal plate!!!???.

Her powers got level up. This also happens in Wonder Woman comics, her powers depend on her current level, in comics there's a separate 'god mode' for her. So, no inconsistency.

And no one blink an eye when she slaughtered. because they were bad Germans??? wasn't she written as some sorta of god of love; using mostly shield and rope; to protect instead of to kill???.

WW was fighting in World War 1, and she is a warrior herself, do you have objection to Captain America killing some soldiers in Captain America movie ? And she has indestructible lasso of Truth not some rope.

my conclusion is... Critics dictate and rule. WW wasn't put under a microscope like they did to previous DCEU movies. As long as they love and like the movie, it will be praised no end and triumph. Critics are the King maker. .

Critics liked Ghostbusters, that didn't get as favorable response from the general audience, in WW's case, the movie got a positive response from the general audience.

i have seen a better WW.

Which one ?

 

[Willi Berg]

It's funny how it's not just about DC vs Marvel anymore. It's DC vs DC. It's this movie against BvS, Patty Jenkins against Zack Snyder. It's WW v Superman, WW v Batman, WW v MOS, WW v Batman v Superman, Patty Jenkins v Zack Snyder. Zack Snyder v Joss Whedon etc.

 

[sf2]

This movie essentially ignores that idea from BvS, without necessarily contradicting it outright (but I think it comes pretty close).

To reconcile the two, one would have to posit that Diana's disillusionment with humanity came at some intermediary moment, between the WW1 era and the present time, a moment that this movie does not portray.

Or one would have to argue that the lines in BvS mean something different from what they seem to mean on the surface.

But I think it's fair to say that Jenkins simply did not like that idea, and chose to present the character differently.

i think you are right. the so called "dark and real" theme has no market. superhero movies should just be bright and hopeful. (batman isn't a superhero)

from the dialogue of BvS, one would have thought that she was betrayed and hurt deeply by mankind. it wasn't the case obviously.

there was a moment in the movie, she realised that maybe people are just bad, they create war and killed millions. therefore she decided not to join Steve on his mission and remained at the tower. but the next second, the sudden appearance of Ares just destroyed this notion. worse, once she killed Ares, War stopped right away. rays of sunlight shone in. Germans took off masks and showed good looking faces.

disappointed...

to @Bruce_Begins, @Willi Berg too. same reply.

 

[Willi Berg]

i think you are right. the so called "dark and real" theme has no market. superhero movies should just be bright and hopeful. (batman isn't a superhero)

from the dialogue of BvS, one would have thought that she was betrayed and hurt deeply by mankind. it wasn't the case obviously.

there was a moment in the movie, she realised that maybe people are just bad, they create war and killed millions. therefore she decided not to join Steve on his mission and remained at the tower. but the next second, the sudden appearance of Ares just destroyed this notion. worse, once she killed Ares, War stopped right away. rays of sunlight shone in. Germans took off masks and showed good looking faces.

disappointed...

to @Bruce_Begins, @Willi Berg too. same reply.

You based a lot of your opinion of this movie on one bit of dialogue in BvS, which is pretty weak to me.

Diana didn't join Steve because she thought maybe mankind really was evil and not worth saving. By the end of the movie, she realises that mankind is a mix of both good and evil, but worth saving because of the good she has seen in people, like Steve Trevor.

From the beginning in the gods' origin story we learn that Ares the God of War had been influencing and corrupting mankind soon after their creation. He later admits that he influenced key players in the war like Ludendorff and Maru. He never stopped corrupting mankind and they created war among themselves. Human aren't "just bad" but have been corrupted by the God of War.

Diana obviously didn't stop war and evil on Earth for all time. There was still war to come. She helped end that particular battle. Those German soldiers in the hangar were Ludendorff's men. They were being directly influenced by Ludendorff and Ares.

War didn't stop right away. Armistice had to be declared. And obviously not all troubles on Earth were solved.

You seem to want Diana to be hurt so deeply by mankind that she will just give up and walk away. That would not be true to the arc of the WW character in this movie. And it doesn't have to be that way to be "dark and real." It doesn't automatically make it a better, "truer" movie if it is dark, downbeat and nihilistic.

 

[Mach2Infinity]

and if a god slaying sword didn't exist, what kinda sword she used to chop off Doomsday's hand??? she disappeared after WW1 and she couldn't return to amazon.

It's the Sword of Athena.

 

[sf2]

You based a lot of your opinion of this movie on one bit of dialogue in BvS, which is pretty weak to me.

Diana didn't join Steve because she thought maybe mankind really was evil and not worth saving. By the end of the movie, she realises that mankind is a mix of both good and evil, but worth saving because of the good she has seen in people, like Steve Trevor.

From the beginning in the gods' origin story we learn that Ares the God of War had been influencing and corrupting mankind soon after their creation. He later admits that he influenced key players in the war like Ludendorff and Maru. He never stopped corrupting mankind and they created war among themselves. Human aren't "just bad" but have been corrupted by the God of War.

Diana obviously didn't stop war and evil on Earth for all time. There was still war to come. She helped end that particular battle. Those German soldiers in the hangar were Ludendorff's men. They were being directly influenced by Ludendorff and Ares.

War didn't stop right away. Armistice had to be declared. And obviously not all troubles on Earth were solved.

You seem to want Diana to be hurt so deeply by mankind that she will just give up and walk away. That would not be true to the arc of the WW character in this movie. And it doesn't have to be that way to be "dark and real." It doesn't automatically make it a better, "truer" movie if it is dark, downbeat and nihilistic.

1st. her believe - mankind is good, only influenced by Ares. if she can kill Ares, man will be good again.
2nd. she killed Ludendorff and thought everything would end. it didn't. she realised she was wrong. she gave up.
3rd. Ares Appeared and explained. she was right! mankind was influenced and poisoned by him.
4th. she killed Ares. the darkness went off. people become are all good. almost hugging each others. she was right indeed.

so the walk away is some kinda bull zhit. since WW is already super duper successful and no body bothers about it. I'm 1000% sure that it wouldn't be explained anymore in any kinda sequel. what for?

don't get me wrong. i think WW is good. 6 or 7. perhaps slightly better than Captain American. but it is also very generic and not outstanding. i have watched a lot better movies... but did much worse in term of BO... mainly because RT / critics said so. therefore the conclusion i drawn.

WW in BvS is outstanding. but BvS is a failed movie to many (the critics)

i was expecting she would meet a really evil minded man like lex luthor who would shatter her belief completely. like he worked together with Ares, and Ares thought he controlled him... but in the end, he killed ARES too as he only used ARES to get to his plan ... just to show WW how evil man can be... and not under ARES's influence...

 

[Micromind]

i think you are right. the so called "dark and real" theme has no market. superhero movies should just be bright and hopeful. (batman isn't a superhero)

from the dialogue of BvS, one would have thought that she was betrayed and hurt deeply by mankind. it wasn't the case obviously.

there was a moment in the movie, she realised that maybe people are just bad, they create war and killed millions. therefore she decided not to join Steve on his mission and remained at the tower. but the next second, the sudden appearance of Ares just destroyed this notion. worse, once she killed Ares, War stopped right away. rays of sunlight shone in. Germans took off masks and showed good looking faces.

disappointed...

to @Bruce_Begins, @Willi Berg too. same reply.

I have answered a similar 'complaint' somewhere in this forum, anyway..

Diana did wrap the Lasso of Truth around Ares (Sir Patrick) to ascertain that he was telling the truth, Ares told her that he merely 'pushed' people towards war, the urge to kill and fight already existed within them, they were inherently 'flawed' creations of Zeus. Ares saw no redeemable qualities in humans, he believed that they were not worth saving but they should just fight endlessly and kill each other thus proving that he was right.


Diana believed that humans had goodness in them and they could prevail over their evil side and achieve peace. So, Wonder Woman's character has gone through character development phase, as initially when she was naive and innocent, she believed that all humans were basically good people who were manipulated by Ares and he was the only reason why they were fighting against each other.

Towards the end of the movie, in the third act, Diana learns that humans have good and bad side within them, the world is not black and white but grey as well.

Good people are also capable of doing bad things and bad people can also do good things. So, the War did not end because WW killed Ares, the War ended as people fighting the war (on both sides) wanted to end the war by signing Armistice (as was shown in the movie where German officers were too in favor of signing Armistice agreement) Did War ceased to exist ? no.


There was no reason to completely abandon Man's 'World', WW decided to take a less conspicuous approach in helping humans, (I think she continued helping people by working as Diana Prince) this part was tweaked by Patty Jenkins as she thought that 'walking away' did not suit WW's character described in BvS.

 

[Flemm]

There's plenty of darkness in WW, but Diana is a beacon of hope within that darkness, which is how it should be.

These are heroic characters, Batman included. He just does it differently.

"Darkness" is not a problem, in a vague sort of way. The world can be plenty dark, but the audience reacts differently when the hero is an inspiration to resist or keep fighting.

Batman is also that way in the Nolan films. The guy has every reason to give up, but he doesn't. Even in something like Logan, that's basically how it works.

 

[Willi Berg]

1st. her believe - mankind is good, only influenced by Ares. if she can kill Ares, man will be good again.
2nd. she killed Ludendorff and thought everything would end. it didn't. she realised she was wrong. she gave up.
3rd. Ares Appeared and explained. she was right! mankind was influenced and poisoned by him.
4th. she killed Ares. the darkness went off. people become are all good. almost hugging each others. she was right indeed.

so the walk away is some kinda bull zhit. since WW is already super duper successful and no body bothers about it. I'm 1000% sure that it wouldn't be explained anymore in any kinda sequel. what for?

don't get me wrong. i think WW is good. 6 or 7. perhaps slightly better than Captain American. but it is also very generic and not outstanding. i have watched a lot better movies... but did much worse in term of BO... mainly because RT / critics said so. therefore the conclusion i drawn.

WW in BvS is outstanding. but BvS is a failed movie to many (the critics)

i was expecting she would meet a really evil minded man like lex luthor who would shatter her belief completely. like he worked together with Ares, and Ares thought he controlled him... but in the end, he killed ARES too as he only used ARES to get to his plan ... just to show WW how evil man can be... and not under ARES's influence...

This way of thinking is too black and white. It misses the whole point of the movie.

 

[Mach2Infinity]

So are we to consider that WW was basically a retcon to Diana's "100 years ago I walked away from mankind, from a century of horrors"? Or will this be explored in a sequel? Thing is she did say "100 years ago.." which would've put it on 2018 more or less (more more) so I'm inclined to believe it's the former. But I'm open for it to be otherwise.

 

[Loki882]

Ares flat-out said that he didn't cause wars, humans did that on their own. He whispered into the ears of people like Ludendorff and Dr. Poison to give them ideas about new weapons and tactics. BUT, as he said "I don't force them to use them."

Basically humans start the conflicts on their own, and all Ares is doing is trying to make it bigger and bloodier indirectly. And the whole point is that Diana comes to see the complexities in humans, whereas Ares either cannot or refuses to see anything but the bad. And in case you had any doubt about whether he was being truthful or not, they have Diana put him in the lasso and demand that he tell her the truth, and he sticks to what he says.

Come to think of it, he's a bit like Ra's al Ghul in Batman Begins in that regard.

And as for the soldiers stopping the fight, well lets see here:

-Those were all Ludendorff's men. The rest of the German leaders wanted to sign the Armistice, which is why Ludendorff had them killed. And why he was in such a hurry, peace was nearly there.

-They just watch to god-like being battle it out and tear up a big chunk of that airfield with clearly supernatural powers.

-Their leaders were either dead or had fled, and the plane with all of the gas had been destroyed to.

-It's mentioned earlier on in the film that even Ludendorff's men were tired, hungry, etc and mostly followed him out of fear.

-Etc.

So it's more a case of them going "well we barely survived that, no point in fighting anymore." At least that's how I read it.

 

[Flemm]

I agree on that point (the soldiers stopping).

All that's left at the end are a few startled, confused young men, those are not zealots. After what they witnessed, they are just glad it's over.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

And as for the soldiers stopping the fight, well lets see here:

-Those were all Ludendorff's men. The rest of the German leaders wanted to sign the Armistice, which is why Ludendorff had them killed. And why he was in such a hurry, peace was nearly there.

-They just watch to god-like being battle it out and tear up a big chunk of that airfield with clearly supernatural powers.

-Their leaders were either dead or had fled, and the plane with all of the gas had been destroyed to.

-It's mentioned earlier on in the film that even Ludendorff's men were tired, hungry, etc and mostly followed him out of fear.

-Etc.

So it's more a case of them going "well we barely survived that, no point in fighting anymore." At least that's how I read it.

Excellent deductions.

 

[Loki882]

Also Diana is like right there. So unless they have a death wish, or are just really REALLY stupid, then they'd know not to mess with her after what they'd just witnessed.

 

[sf2]

Ares flat-out said that he didn't cause wars, humans did that on their own. He whispered into the ears of people like Ludendorff and Dr. Poison to give them ideas about new weapons and tactics. BUT, as he said "I don't force them to use them."

Basically humans start the conflicts on their own, and all Ares is doing is trying to make it bigger and bloodier indirectly. And the whole point is that Diana comes to see the complexities in humans, whereas Ares either cannot or refuses to see anything but the bad. And in case you had any doubt about whether he was being truthful or not, they have Diana put him in the lasso and demand that he tell her the truth, and he sticks to what he says.

Come to think of it, he's a bit like Ra's al Ghul in Batman Begins in that regard.

And as for the soldiers stopping the fight, well lets see here:

-Those were all Ludendorff's men. The rest of the German leaders wanted to sign the Armistice, which is why Ludendorff had them killed. And why he was in such a hurry, peace was nearly there.

-They just watch to god-like being battle it out and tear up a big chunk of that airfield with clearly supernatural powers.

-Their leaders were either dead or had fled, and the plane with all of the gas had been destroyed to.

-It's mentioned earlier on in the film that even Ludendorff's men were tired, hungry, etc and mostly followed him out of fear.

-Etc.

So it's more a case of them going "well we barely survived that, no point in fighting anymore." At least that's how I read it.

ARES influence / poison on people mind isn't like the concept "you give me a gun, if I use it to kill, it is all my own fault."
it is "if you have never given me a gun, i would never known what a gun is and its existence!!!" therefore, ARES has poisoned people mind, which he has admitted.



and the lasso thing on ARES to tell the truth is... weird.. (don't know how to put it)


i mean she has strong and firm childish believe that ARES is the evil and key of all the destruction. the sudden appearance of ARES should have excited her that her believe is still true and she has killed a wrong guy just now. that's it.



Anyway, Dr. Poison & Ludendorff are just too cliché, and underwhelmed.



and the plan too. a plane full of flammable posionous gas can so easy to get to its target??? it wouldn't pass through the borders of England

 

[sf2]

Also Diana is like right there. So unless they have a death wish, or are just really REALLY stupid, then they'd know not to mess with her after what they'd just witnessed.

exactly. they should just run with tails between their legs. not took off the masks to show good looking faces... and about to hug each others. (which trying to say that they are good people too, am i right???)


i mean this "I walked away from mankind, from a century of horrors" just doesn't mean sense at all.


anyway, nobody cares as WW is doing superb!!! they will just brush it off as if nothing happened. nobody will give a damn.

 

[Flemm]

The issue with MoS and BvS is they essentially begin with the premise that the world can't or won't accept a hero like Superman.

I think that premise is just fundamentally not true: people are as hungry for heroes like Superman as they have ever been, and for mostly the same reasons: the world is a pretty dark place, and these larger-than-life heroic figures are attractive in that context.

The world is more than ready to accept Superman, but the film-makers have to stop insisting that the world won't accept him.

That is the weird (and I guess mildly interesting) aspect of those movies: what people don't accept is not Superman, but rather the negative and, I think, misguided assumptions about the modern world presented in those movies.

The Wonder Woman lines you are referring to in BvS are a product of the same sort of thinking, the idea being that Diana tried the superhero thing in the past, but she walked away because mankind had created a world that was just too horrible for a heroic figure to participate in.

Those ideas completely forget that horrible times are what make people want to imagine heroic characters like Wonder Woman and Superman.

So, Jenkins and everyone involved were right, imho, to not give any weight to that, and instead to show Diana being heroic in a very, dark troubled time, inspiring others, and being inspired by the people around her (notably Steve).

That is precisely why this movie works in such a big way, in my view. It gets to the heart of what people want from a character like Wonder Woman, while MoS and BvS are constantly insisting that people don't want that.

But they *do* want that. That is the crux of the issue.

 

[Micromind]

exactly. they should just run with tails between their legs. not took off the masks to show good looking faces... and about to hug each others. (which trying to say that they are good people too, am i right???)

Why should they run ?

Do trained soldiers run when they see someone from other side (enemy side) who is not armed and is not attacking them ?

i mean this "I walked away from mankind, from a century of horrors" just doesn't mean sense at all..

You are too much fixated on a line of dialogue that can have multiple meanings.

anyway, nobody cares as WW is doing superb!!! they will just brush it off as if nothing happened. nobody will give a damn.

Maybe the things that bother you are a matter of personal choice ? And everyone has a freedom to like / dislike what they want.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

The issue with MoS and BvS is they essentially begin with the premise that the world can't or won't accept a hero like Superman.

I think that premise is just fundamentally not true: people are as hungry for heroes like Superman as they have ever been, and for mostly the same reasons: the world is a pretty dark place, and these larger-than-life heroic figures are attractive in that context.

The world is more than ready to accept Superman, but the film-makers have to stop insisting that the world won't accept him.

That is the weird (and I guess mildly interesting) aspect of those movies: what people don't accept is not Superman, but rather the negative and, I think, misguided assumptions about the modern world presented in those movies.

The Wonder Woman lines you are referring to in BvS are a product of the same sort of thinking, the idea being that Diana tried the superhero thing in the past, but she walked away because mankind had created a world that was just too horrible for a heroic figure to participate in.

Those ideas completely forget that horrible times are what make people want to imagine heroic characters like Wonder Woman and Superman.

So, Jenkins and everyone involved were right, imho, to not give any weight to that, and instead to show Diana being heroic in a very, dark troubled time, inspiring others, and being inspired by the people around her (notably Steve).

That is precisely why this movie works in such a big way, in my view. It gets to the heart of what people want from a character like Wonder Woman, while MoS and BvS are constantly insisting that people don't want that.

But they *do* want that. That is the crux of the issue.

I'll be blunt... Have you seen the maliciousness the world has thrown in the direction of good people trying to make a difference for the better for... THOUSANDS of years?

A Palestinian Jew in the ancient world preaches to have love in one's heart, to turn the other cheek and to care for the sick and the poor... He got crucified for his troubles.

A preacher from the south of the United States proclaims that he has a dream to see racial reconciliation and a society where bigotry does not go unchallenged... He was assassinated.

I don't need to go on, I think most get my drift. I am sorry but it's quite naive to think in this modern world with the way we OVERREACT to everything (And I would indeed put the reaction to the FICTION that was MOS and BVS in that category) under the sun that the revelation of a being who is not only not human in their origins but possessing of god like, world changing powers would be met with instant acceptance and understanding, or that the skepticism at best, xenophobia at worst wouldn't or couldn't spill over into something else.

 

[Micromind]

ARES influence / poison on people mind isn't like the concept "you give me a gun, if I use it to kill, it is all my own fault."
it is "if you have never given me a gun, i would never known what a gun is and its existence!!!" therefore, ARES has poisoned people mind, which he has admitted.

Ares influence manipulated humans to continue their war, he didn't start the war, humans did that themselves.

Ares wanted greater destruction, more conflict, no peace. The reasons to fight war was man's creation.

and the lasso thing on ARES to tell the truth is... weird.. (don't know how to put it)

Except it isn't, the lasso works on everyone.

i mean she has strong and firm childish believe that ARES is the evil and key of all the destruction. the sudden appearance of ARES should have excited her that her believe is still true and she has killed a wrong guy just now. that's it.

Anyway, Dr. Poison & Ludendorff are just too cliché, and underwhelmed.

So is Ras al Ghul and Joker. Comic book villains are like that.

and the plan too. a plane full of flammable posionous gas can so easy to get to its target??? it wouldn't pass through the borders of England

Not many people knew what Dr. Maru and Ludendorf were upto, all were just waiting for the Armistice to be signed next day, many on English side didn't even knew about the new poison gas. Their plan could have worked as they were counting on element of surprise attack.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

and the plan too. a plane full of flammable posionous gas can so easy to get to its target??? it wouldn't pass through the borders of England

What would the British have stopped it with? It's not like the British had squadrons of Spitfires to attack the bomber. The British had enough trouble trying to stop big, slow moving Zeppelins from bombing London in WW1.
A four engine prop driven bomber would have been a much harder target to catch up with and hit.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

I'll be blunt... Have you seen the maliciousness the world has thrown in the direction of good people trying to make a difference for the better for... THOUSANDS of years?

A Palestinian Jew in the ancient world preaches to have love in one's heart, to turn the other cheek and to care for the sick and the poor... He got crucified for his troubles.

A preacher from the south of the United States proclaims that he has a dream to see racial reconciliation and a society where bigotry does not go unchallenged... He was assassinated.

It's not like all of mankind conspired to kill Jesus or Martin Luther King. Both were very popular figures and had very devoted followings. Otherwise we never would have heard of them. It was people who didn't want to change the status quo that killed them. People at the top who would lose their power were the ones who killed Jesus, not the common people. People with a racist agenda who weren't willing to share power with black people that killed Martin Luther King. Where-as with Superman in the movie it was portrayed that everybody seemed to hate him. Carrying signs and burning effigies. That their messages still resonate today indicates they got through to people. It was only after Superman was killed that some people seemed to come around to his side.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

It's not like all of mankind conspired to kill Jesus or Martin Luther King. Both were very popular figures and had very devoted followings. Otherwise we never would have heard of them. It was people who didn't want to change the status quo that killed them. People at the top who would lose their power were the ones who killed Jesus, not the common people. People with a racist agenda who weren't willing to share power with black people that killed Martin Luther King. Where-as with Superman in the movie it was portrayed that everybody seemed to hate him. Carrying signs and burning effigies. That their messages still resonate today indicates they got through to people. It was only after Superman was killed that some people seemed to come around to his side.

When given a choice between the man that fed the poor and taught love, IN THE BIBLE, the story goes the crowd chose another to free over Jesus. That's the story. Jesus even said “A prophet is without honor only in his hometown, among his relatives, and in his own household.” If he were so accepted he would have been freed via the masses, but instead he was spat upon as he was lead to his death upon the cross as he traversed the city to Golgotha.

As for King... Jim Crow era segregation was EMBRACED all over the South. It's not just a case of "the powers that be". He was fighting against a very POPULAR ideology, the supremacy of white Americans over all others in the country. This was embraced as much among poor whites with no influence as in more elite circles.

Finally, people see what they want since the film also shows those in support of Superman as the talking heads section makes plainly clear.

Again... Look at the world as it really is and if you extrapolate actual history those we embrace as heroes TODAY had to face a lot of headwinds standing for what they believed was right and taking action DURING THEIR OWN TIME, and willing to accept the consequences ultimately for those actions, even when they for sure had doubts, fears and second thoughts... That's what makes them heroes and their actions heroic. Acceptance is hardly at the top of the list of their considerations I think.

If you think that a being of god like powers, even with good intentions, would be accepted without a second thought as to implications or would not stir up all sorts of controversy the way they presented super powered beings in a Silver Age Comic Book, all the power to you but I am a bit more sanguine in terms of thinking about taking these fantasies and putting them into the context of the a real world setting and that comes from seeing history and current events as they are. That's not unearned cynicism in my view. That's seeing our history as it's played out in both the short term and over the long haul of civilization.