Wonder Woman Thread Reborn! - Part 9

[TheComicbookKid]

Understanding it isn't the problem. She's from Paradise, that's her natural perception. She would understand Othello, but she's not going to think of Iago as sympathetic, and the world is full of Iagos. All Steve is teaching is the basic principle: Weak people do dumb/evil things, but don't judge them too harshly.

Of course she wouldn't. But why would she need Steve to tell her that weak people do evil/dumb things? Haven't we done that since the beginning of time? Don't the Amazons do stupid stuff sometime out of anger or jealousy?

These aren't modern character flaws. They're important parts of being human.

Im sorry but what book you have you been reading that's just not true. In the 4th issue we find out that her mother died and that her dads in prison. Diana and her had a moment verbal about feeling alone in thethe world Hades even used her moms image to trap .her

You realize you refuted my point then backed it up by pointing out that the stuff about her mom was used in relation to the Gods?

 

[DrCosmic]

Of course she wouldn't. But why would she need Steve to tell her that weak people do evil/dumb things? Haven't we done that since the beginning of time? Don't the Amazons do stupid stuff sometime out of anger or jealousy?

These aren't modern character flaws. They're important parts of being human.

The end of my sentence: not judge them too harshly. And my understanding of Themyscira is that they don't do dumb things out of anger/jealousy. That's part of why it's called Paradise Island - because they have developed a society that is socially advanced. Now if you're talking about a less evolved Themyscira one that's Paradise in name only, I'd see your point.

But again, if she's from Paradise, she's going to look at Iago as someone who's in need of punishment, not guidance.

Eh, all that stuff will come down to the casting. Brad Bird and Emily Blunt will work it out at the appropriate time.

The good news is that WW is a broad enough character (similar to Supes) that the director/writers/actors will have plenty of space to put their own mark on her. But she's never gonna be as complex as Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark. Shes too perfect. Even Thor is more complex.

I call bologna! Everything, from character design to plot points gets worked out at the appropriate time. By that standard, this whole website is invalid. And every character is precisely as complex as they've been made. The same broadness that you describe are depths to plumb for anyone who doesn't say "eh, that stuff will work itself out."

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT EVERYTHING EXCEPT WONDER WOMAN HERSELF!

The main thing people need to be talking about right now is Wonder Woman's personality. Her motivations. You take away the Superhero from a Clark, Bruce, Hal, Wally, Arthur, Ollie, etc, and you know who they are, you know their motivations, you know what they will do, why they will do it, and how they will do it.

Who in the hell is Diana Prince? What are her motivations? What is her personality without Wonder Woman? What makes her tick? If we took away her Super powers, who would she be, how would she handle daily life, and how would she handle threats?

It's funny cause I just realized this. We have spent 5 topics talking about enemies, supporting cast, who is going to don the tiara, but we never really talked about who Diana is.

Thank you. The problem is that NO ONE ever talks about who Diana is. They say she and Wonder Woman are the same person (as though Bruce and Batman or Clark and Superman are somehow not?) and leave her as this typical female superhero with nothing to add to the conversation but a sexy body and generic superhero dialogue. Even the "Who is Diana?" Storylines from the comics just end up with "she's a bit of everything, really..." which kinda makes her nothing.

That question, what Diana would do if she didn't have super powers, really hits the heart of it well.

For me, Diana is an adventurer, a very vibrant spirit whom the island never had any hope of containing anyway. She's the most exciting thing happening at any given time, not the most powerful or righteous necessarily like Superman, not the scariest or angstiest, like Batman. She's the one who's having the most fun doing this, partly because, as others have pointed out, when she's Wonder Woman, she's just being herself anyway. How appropriate for someone who wields the power of Truth at her side. So the question becomes, "What kind of person would love doing this?" Someone who likes to help people, someone who likes to fight and compete, someone who has a strong moral center, someone who likes to go to new places and do new things. Whether you work it forward or backwards, you end up with a primarily fun, charming character who was born (or made) for this, they just don't know it yet.

This grafting on of the generic warrior princess archetype has never done her any service, and constantly taken the conversation away from her to everything around her.

This could be me being naive to Wonder Woman as a whole, but I don't remember there being much to Diana Prince as a character in terms of differences from WW. She keeps all the same values and characteristics, it's more of just a name she uses for everyday life.

This has been true for a while. The problem is that if there's not much to Diana as a character, then there's not much to Wonder Woman as a character, either.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Now youre getting it!

Seriously though, the casting will determine the characterization, which is a good thing because Diana/WW on paper isnt particularly complex. A top notch actress will humanize the character, not a screenwriter. Which is why conversations about Diana's motivations are both premature and beside the point.

And I assure you that WW's plot-driven motivations will be more or less by the numbers ie it will seem quite familiar to most audiences a la Thor. Large chunks of the script will write itself, which isnt such a bad thing.

 

[DrCosmic]

While the star does humanize the character, characterization and character arc has always influenced casting (that's what they discuss with potentials), this movie will be no different. And afaik, there is no proverbial point for motivations conversation to be beside, likewise, all these discussions are premature. If you'd rather wait to have these discussions while the as yet unknown filmmakers are having these discussions, I think that's a personal decision.

A great WW film would go deeper into the character than the most likely film we'll get. It would, like Begins and hopefully MOS, bring something new to the character while bringing out the character depth and mythic themes that don't show up in a cursory overview, and aren't known by casual fans.

 

[KingMadness]

Thank you. The problem is that NO ONE ever talks about who Diana is. They say she and Wonder Woman are the same person (as though Bruce and Batman or Clark and Superman are somehow not?) and leave her as this typical female superhero with nothing to add to the conversation but a sexy body and generic superhero dialogue. Even the "Who is Diana?" Storylines from the comics just end up with "she's a bit of everything, really..." which kinda makes her nothing.

That question, what Diana would do if she didn't have super powers, really hits the heart of it well.

For me, Diana is an adventurer, a very vibrant spirit whom the island never had any hope of containing anyway. She's the most exciting thing happening at any given time, not the most powerful or righteous necessarily like Superman, not the scariest or angstiest, like Batman. She's the one who's having the most fun doing this, partly because, as others have pointed out, when she's Wonder Woman, she's just being herself anyway. How appropriate for someone who wields the power of Truth at her side. So the question becomes, "What kind of person would love doing this?" Someone who likes to help people, someone who likes to fight and compete, someone who has a strong moral center, someone who likes to go to new places and do new things. Whether you work it forward or backwards, you end up with a primarily fun, charming character who was born (or made) for this, they just don't know it yet.

This grafting on of the generic warrior princess archetype has never done her any service, and constantly taken the conversation away from her to everything around her.

!!! I love this! Diana being an adventurer at heart makes sense on so many different levels!

1) Having spent most of her life on an island, she was always stuck in one place, and never got to see new things. So it makes sense she would yearn to see new places.

2) In the Odyssey, I remember when Odysseus had himself taped to the mast of his ship(instead of covering his ears) when he passed the sirens so he wouldn't get lured in. He did this presumably because he wanted the experience, he wanted to do something few if any had done.

That's kind of how I think Diana should be. An upbeat, fun, thrill seeker and adventurer. Always pushing the limits, exploring new places, and trying new things. This can tie into her personal life when she tells Steve they should try a new restaurant, or go to a part of town they have never been before. This can tie into her Wonder Woman humanitarian work when she wants to explore the world for people in need of help.

Hmm, so that takes care of what type of person Diana would be without her powers. Also sort of takes care of her motivations, so long as we tie her being compassionate with her confidence, fierceness, and compassion.

But what does an adventurer say in a Justice League setting that makes them useful? A comment on a place they visited?

 

[Hamill-Joker]

My take on Diana would be very similar to her as Wonder Woman.

Because my ideal setting for the first Wonder Woman movie is during WWII, and I would have Steve introduce her to his superiors as a member of the Greek resistance who helped him escape occupied Greece back to England.

 

[DrCosmic]

^I guess the question then is: What is your take on her as Wonder Woman?

!!! I love this! Diana being an adventurer at heart makes sense on so many different levels!

1) Having spent most of her life on an island, she was always stuck in one place, and never got to see new things. So it makes sense she would yearn to see new places.

2) In the Odyssey, I remember when Odysseus had himself taped to the mast of his ship(instead of covering his ears) when he passed the sirens so he wouldn't get lured in. He did this presumably because he wanted the experience, he wanted to do something few if any had done.

That's kind of how I think Diana should be. An upbeat, fun, thrill seeker and adventurer. Always pushing the limits, exploring new places, and trying new things. This can tie into her personal life when she tells Steve they should try a new restaurant, or go to a part of town they have never been before. This can tie into her Wonder Woman humanitarian work when she wants to explore the world for people in need of help.

Hmm, so that takes care of what type of person Diana would be without her powers. Also sort of takes care of her motivations, so long as we tie her being compassionate with her confidence, fierceness, and compassion.

But what does an adventurer say in a Justice League setting that makes them useful? A comment on a place they visited?

I agree, it's rare when you see that side of her peek out in the comics, but when it does its always a treat. Everyone always loves it when Diana smiles. She's one character who's positioned to do it early and often. Why they don't have her do it more is beyond me.

On the JL dynamic, it's weird because the League covers so much. There's a few ways to take it though. Say the Trinity is talking, as they do from time to time:

Batman: We need to do the smart thing.
Superman: We need to do the right thing.
Wonder Woman: We need to do something now.

This puts Diana in the place to 'break the tie' so to speak. It also puts her in that familiar female expositor role, as she underlines the urgency, though that role is most often given to Batman nowadays. Hmmm...

I'll keep thinking on this one.

 

[jaymes_e06]

You realize you refuted my point then backed it up by pointing out that the stuff about her mom was used in relation to the Gods?

That wasn't the only thing I said. And what does that have to do with them giving Zola character development? Deflecting are we?

 

[TheComicbookKid]

That wasn't the only thing I said. And what does that have to do with them giving Zola character development? Deflecting are we?

Deflecting? I admitted you were right. I had forgotten about the parents thing.

Then you backed up what I said cause the revelation about her parents were used by the Gods against her. IE feelings brought about in relation to the Gods.

My point is that Zola won't stay on as a long term character if everything we learn about her is simply plot points for the War of the Gods stuff. Cause if the next writer decides to start using Cheetah, Dr. Psycho, and etc. Zola isn't important cause she has no characterization that is thought of independently of how the Gods used her. That's just the history of WW's supporting cast.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

The end of my sentence: not judge them too harshly. And my understanding of Themyscira is that they don't do dumb things out of anger/jealousy. That's part of why it's called Paradise Island - because they have developed a society that is socially advanced. Now if you're talking about a less evolved Themyscira one that's Paradise in name only, I'd see your point.

But again, if she's from Paradise, she's going to look at Iago as someone who's in need of punishment, not guidance.

I just don't think Social Advancement changes your fundamental understanding of right/wrong. Just because they're from Paradise, and are advanced, doesn't mean punishment is their only way of dealing with aggression.

I mean. Isn't the whole idea of Western Civilization that advancement means greater understanding/becoming better? Why would they resort only to punishment and not give a chance towards guidance?

If are modern justice system can discern between intentions(and judge accordingly) then shouldn't they? They are supposed to be advance.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Deflecting? I admitted you were right. I had forgotten about the parents thing.

Then you backed up what I said cause the revelation about her parents were used by the Gods against her. IE feelings brought about in relation to the Gods.

My point is that Zola won't stay on as a long term character if everything we learn about her is simply plot points for the War of the Gods stuff. Cause if the next writer decides to start using Cheetah, Dr. Psycho, and etc. Zola isn't important cause she has no characterization that is thought of independently of how the Gods used her. That's just the history of WW's supporting cast.

Okay I missread your post at first.

I understand that Zola isn't necessarily a permenent staple in the WW supporting cast unless they actually put some effort into developing her more than just the trusty side-kick. However, I think that after the baby is born that they can expand upon her character if they wanted to try. Her father being in prison (persumably for murder) could be an interesting thing to pursue. Just throwing ideas out there.

Sorry to derail the thread but yes I agree that the adventurer side of Diana needs to be displayed more often and is a key component in what makes WW/Diana different from all the other DC heroes.

 

[DrCosmic]

I just don't think Social Advancement changes your fundamental understanding of right/wrong. Just because they're from Paradise, and are advanced, doesn't mean punishment is their only way of dealing with aggression.

I mean. Isn't the whole idea of Western Civilization that advancement means greater understanding/becoming better? Why would they resort only to punishment and not give a chance towards guidance?

If are modern justice system can discern between intentions(and judge accordingly) then shouldn't they? They are supposed to be advance.

If their reaction to folly was guidance they would have re-engaged with man's world long ago. It's not an advanced modern society, it's an advanced society that's grown in a sterile vacuum. And again, it's not an understanding issue, it's an empathy issue. What happens with, like Iago, the intentions are wretched?

And it's even more serious with Diana who has no practical experience with this kind of stuff. All she's known is the advanced, all of her understanding of weakness and evil is theoretical. She's not prepared to meet screwed up people where they are when she steps off the island.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Has any one seen this?

I think the face armour is a bit much but other than that it seems pretty amazing.

 

[DrCosmic]

Haven't seen it, but more proof of the navy battle skirt being pretty doggone cool.

 

[Edguy]

Different pictures of that outfit has been posted a few times. I think it looks really cool tho!

Make the skirt a little longer and less revealing, and I'm game!

 

[Lily Adler]

But think of the horny fanboys.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

its in the ballpark. but she needs to be fully covered up top and a fuller skirt a la rosamund pike in wrath of the titans (yes, its a garbage movie)

 

[Dark Raven]

Why should she be fully covered up top? I'd still like her to look like she's wearing her classic costume. That one above, minus the helmet and the cape would be fine with me. Certainly better than the horrible pants she was wearing in that David E Kelly pilot.

I don't mind the open sandals too, but maybe keep that for when she's on Themyiscira or in ancient civilisations and not when she's over in the West in DC World (which includes Metropolis, Gotham and Starling City).

 

[terry78]

I know she may not need armor, but apparently canon says bullets can pierce her skin, but her reflexes are so crazy they rarely get the chance.

 

[DrCosmic]

Yeah, if they're going to go swimsuit, they need to go really light on the Mythology elements like the Golden Age and 70s TV show did. They don't go together.

 

[KingMadness]

^I guess the question then is: What is your take on her as Wonder Woman?



I agree, it's rare when you see that side of her peek out in the comics, but when it does its always a treat. Everyone always loves it when Diana smiles. She's one character who's positioned to do it early and often. Why they don't have her do it more is beyond me.

On the JL dynamic, it's weird because the League covers so much. There's a few ways to take it though. Say the Trinity is talking, as they do from time to time:

Batman: We need to do the smart thing.
Superman: We need to do the right thing.
Wonder Woman: We need to do something now.

This puts Diana in the place to 'break the tie' so to speak. It also puts her in that familiar female expositor role, as she underlines the urgency, though that role is most often given to Batman nowadays. Hmmm...

I'll keep thinking on this one.

One thing I don't want is for her to be the angry one. I can't stand a Diana that is always mad and walks around all bloodthirsty.

 

[terry78]

 

[DrCosmic]

Great gif Terry, I forgot how good that movie really is.

One thing I don't want is for her to be the angry one. I can't stand a Diana that is always mad and walks around all bloodthirsty.

Yeah, so not compelling.

I used to think of her as a sort of peacemaker in the group, but that would require the group be at each other's throats most of the time.

What do GL and Flash bring to the discussions anyways? It's hard to really have a voice in *that* group. I've seen her be a sort of den mother figure, protective big sis, unofficial team guidance counselor, that can be interesting I guess, if the writer is willing to earn that.

But in truth, there aren't enough needs in a group that big to cover all its members. She basically ends up being the 'magic specialist' like when there's tech Cyborg is talking, when there's sea monsters Aquaman is talking, when there's aliens Green Lantern is talking.

Another role you could place her in is in a sort of narrator/pseudo-mentor role, where she is the one chronicling the League's exploits, and perhaps studying them in a way, and in that way serves as a mirror to examine each of them.

 

[KingMadness]

Well actually Flash(Wally West) is the true heart and soul of the Justice League. Wally is the blue collar everyman, when your in the JL it's easy to get smug, elite, and especially in Superman's case feel godlike. Wally is the one that will crack a joke to remind everyone not to take themselves too seriously, to remind everyone that at the end of the day they are all people. In essence he is the one that keeps everybody honest before Green Arrow shows up. Barry Allen is trash with no personality.

Hal Jordan GL is the fearless, headstrong wise ash. He has unlimited knowledge of the universe as well thanks to his ring. In intergalactic stories he's the one that will shine. Jon Stewart GL is the uptight marine who thinks pragmatically due to his experience.

Aquaman is the ever noble, naval experienced king. If any battle were to take place on or near the water, Aquaman would be even better than Batman to devise an adequate plan.

To take it even further Superman is the rock/foundation, Batman is the brains.

You kinda know what every member of the JL would say to each other, except Wonder Woman which sucks lol.

 

[Edguy]

See, this is where JL has it's edge over The Avengers; the team dynamic. If a writer can really play on the morals and personalities, then a JL film could turn out just amazing!

Bruce <-> Clark
Diana -> Bruce & Clark
Wally -> Everyone
Barry <-> Hal
Wally <-> John
J'onn -> Everyone

Just so many interesting relationships!