The Avengers Would you have preferred more substance over summer action flick?

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I think what's happening is that there's a fight over the direction of comic book movies.

unbridled imagination vs grounded realism

It would be a worthy debate if people could remain civil about it.
 
If you watch Bambie enough times I'm sure you'll find all kinds of thematic subtext, especially on subsequent viewing. Clearly your standards for what is "thought provoking" and "cleverly deep" is on a different planet, neigh universe from the rest of us.

I think the problem is that as a comic book fan you are trying so desperately to find deep meaning where there is none. Even simple, mundane scenes turn into a "deep, thought-provoking wonder" with you. Avengers was a fun, entertaining popcorn flick filled with decent action. It's not Citizen Kane. It wasn't remotely "deep or "thought-provoking" unless you consider films like "The Expendables" to be deep or thought-provoking.
Only "decent" action? Not even remotely "deep or "thought-provoking"? Comparing it to The fricken Expendables?

Are you joking or did you even see the movie the rest of us saw? Do you even know what "clever" means? This movie is the very definition of "cleverly deep."
 
i just get annoyed thats several fans assume a big blockbuster film with big action and cgi automatically equals no substance
 
i just get annoyed thats several fans assume a big blockbuster film with big action and cgi automatically equals no substance


That's fanboy logic for you.

And of coure there are simpletons who thinks that unless a movie featured all the characters brooding, questioning the purpose of life every other scnes, complete with a 15 minutes monoloque, then it isn't a 'deep'movie
 
it would have been nice to have more than a zod like villain and another alien invasion portal story. just watched transformers not long ago. i was hoping for as the kids say "epic" but we got more of just a fun action movie.
Not epic and just fun?
This movie was one of the most epic Ive seen haha. This was the equivalent to watching Star Wars or Raiders for the first time for me. It all worked! Loki is one of the the greatest villains on screen, if you want more character study you can always watch Thor. Same with all the characters. Thats an option you dont have with many other films. They all work fine in the film and give you enough backstory and substance to follow whats going on between characters. I wouldnt change a thing. What they have works and this film won on every level. The fans love it, audiences love it, it showed making crossovers/comic accurate characters work, its got a 93% on RT, an A+ cinemascore, and on top of that its crushing at the box office.
 
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Not epic and just fun?
This movie was one of the most epic Ive seen haha. This was the equivalent to watching Star Wars or Raiders for the first time for me. It all worked! Loki is one of the the greatest villains on screen, if you want more character study you can always watch Thor. Same with all the characters. Thats an option you dont have with many other films. They all work fine in the film and give you enough backstory and substance to follow whats going on between characters. I wouldnt change a thing. What they have works and this film won on every level. The fans love it, audiences love it, it showed making crossovers/comic accurate characters work, its got a 92% on RT, an A+ cinemascore, and on top of that its crushing at the box office.

93%. :o
 
JB-the-Hunter said:
Only "decent" action? Not even remotely "deep or "thought-provoking"? Comparing it to The fricken Expendables?

Excellent action at times but it became repetitive in the final act after the 1000th Chitauri bit the dust with ease. Fighting a useless, generic, incompetent race of "insect humanoids" - ie cannon fodder, wasn't particularly exciting. It may have started out that way, but it eventually wore me down.

No, this film wasn't particularly deep or thought-provoking, unless you consider the action itself to be thought-provoking, hence my comparison with "The Expendables". Any other "deep" subtext is purely from your imagination and you guys are quite inventive in that regard. Like I said, watch Bambie and after subsequent viewings you'll find that "deep" too. Clearly your standards for what constitutes a deep and thought-provoking film differs from mine.

Are you joking or did you even see the movie the rest of us saw?
Judging by some of the comments in this thread it would appear a different film.

This movie is the very definition of "cleverly deep."
Please don't make me laugh.
 
Please don't make me laugh.

"Deep" means there's more to something than is presented, "CLEVERLY deep" means there's more to something than is presented, and you have to be a clever person or have a clever mind to realize and understand that depth. It seems the lot of us here who understand the subte, clever subtext fit that description, while you are the exception. Please don't act like just because you can't see what we see that it doesn't exist, because it does. We're not making this up.. it's there!
 
JB-the-Hunter said:
It seems the lot of us here who understand the subte, clever subtext fit that description, while you are the exception. Please don't act like just because you can't see what we see that it doesn't exist, because it does. We're not making this up.. it's there!

"Cleverly deep" and "deep" is nothing but semantic word play. In any event according to your definition the Avengers wouldn't pass the grade. Fight Club was "cleverly deep" by your definition. This movie isn't in the same universe as Fight Club. It's a fun superhero popcorn flick, not that there is anything inherently wrong with that.

However it's an insult to the intelligence of audiences world-wide to insinuate that the Avengers is some intellectual masterpiece. It isn't.
 
However it's an insult to the intelligence of audiences world-wide to insinuate that the Avengers is some intellectual masterpiece. It isn't.
Oh, now I get it... to you a movie has to be an intellectual masterpiece to be deep. Don't be so close minded. It may not be thought provoking or deep to the extent of Fight Club and films of that nature, but it is still thought provoking and deep none the less. And the conversations going on in this thread prove that. I'm not trying to make this film out to be something it's not, but it's not just some stupid popcorn movie that you're making it out to be. Pirates of the Caribbean is a fun popcorn flick. There's much more to the Avengers, and I wish you;d see that.
 
"Cleverly deep" and "deep" is nothing but semantic word play. In any event according to your definition the Avengers wouldn't pass the grade. Fight Club was "cleverly deep" by your definition. This movie isn't in the same universe as Fight Club. It's a fun superhero popcorn flick, not that there is anything inherently wrong with that.

However it's an insult to the intelligence of audiences world-wide to insinuate that the Avengers is some intellectual masterpiece. It isn't.

I don't think that anyone here claiming that the movie is a masterpiece. That's just you projecting.

And why would any sane person compares the fight club to the Avengers? both movie has different goals and both movies accomplished that.

You made it sound as if you take out the action part of the Avengers, then you can forget about it.

Judging by what people-and critics - are responding to the movie, other than the great action scenes, is how well written the characters are. In a movie filled with action, it never forgets that it's the characters that the real drive behind this movie... that's why it's got over 90% ratings on rottentomatoes, that's why Cinemascore gave it an A score...and more importantly, that why the general audience responded to the movie.

If action scenes is the Avengers only card, it wouldn't be this much appreciated among the critics. Ultimately, the things that the people would remember the most about the movie are the character moments...little things like the banter between them etc

That's the 'depth' of this movie. The characterizations, the characters dynamics. It's what the critics are mostly praising about the movie. If it's only about the action, then Bayformers would have had the same critical success.
 
Paladin-Hoss said:
In a movie filled with action, it never forgets that it's the characters that the real drive behind this movie... that's why it's got over 90% ratings on rottentomatoes, that's why Cinemascore gave it an A score...and more importantly, that why the general audience responded to the movie.

Avengers had just enough substance on it to keep it from devolving into a mindless Bay-spectacle, but let's not pretend as if it was some shining example of how to do superhero characterisation on the big-screen, because it wasn't. TDK, Iron Man, Spiderman 2 and X-Men First Class are all superior to the Avengers in that department.

Avengers has "great characterisation" in the sense that whatever it does have is very good, but that still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't have much of it to begin with. That is not a knock or criticism of the film, because that is not what the film intended to be. The film appealed to a wide audience because first and foremost, it was "fun". A hilariously fun superhero movie at that. I laughed my ass off in my cinema, so did other movie-goers.

If action scenes is the Avengers only card, it wouldn't be this much appreciated among the critics. Ultimately, the things that the people would remember the most about the movie are the character moments...little things like the banter between them etc
Yes, there were some nice character moments, no one is denying that. However RDJ grated on my nerves after a while with his "witty" banter. Some of it worked, some of it didn't. There were moments that felt cliched but that's par for the course in a movie dealing with multiple superhero characters.
 
Paladin-Hoss said:
Judging by what people-and critics - are responding to the movie, other than the great action scenes, is how well written the characters are. In a movie filled with action, it never forgets that it's the characters that the real drive behind this movie... that's why it's got over 90% ratings on rottentomatoes

If crowd reactions and box office intake were indicators of quality writing and overflowing characterisation, then the top spots would have been populated by films like Citizen Kane, Lawrence of Arabia, Apocalypse Now and not Avatar and Titanic. :rolleyes:
 
Avengers had just enough substance on it to keep it from devolving into a mindless Bay-spectacle, but let's not pretend as if it was some shining example of how to do superhero characterisation on the big-screen, because it wasn't. TDK, Iron Man, Spiderman 2 and X-Men First Class are all superior to the Avengers in that department.

This is where we have to agree to disagree. Especially on the part about 'its just enough' ...and i'm not saying this because of i'm a marvel drone. 'Just enough'doesn't get you this much critical succes, 'just enough' would be much better applied to ensemble movies such as the expendables like you previously mentioned.

You're saying that movies such as first class spidey 2 are much better in that department is just your personal prefference.

Avengers has "great characterisation" in the sense that whatever it does have is very good, but that still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't have much of it to begin with. That is not a knock or criticism of the film, because that is not what the film intended to be. The film appealed to a wide audience because first and foremost, it was "fun". A hilariously fun superhero movie at that. I laughed my ass off in my cinema, so did other movie-goers.

Can you explain more on how you came to this conclusion? to me ( and apparently many others) all the characters in the movie are clearly defined, with their own unique individual character traits, thanks to excellent writing by Wheddon....


Yes, there were some nice character moments, no one is denying that. However RDJ grated on my nerves after a while with his "witty" banter. Some of it worked, some of it didn't. There were moments that felt cliched but that's par for the course in a movie dealing with multiple superhero characters.

Again, that's personal prefference, not a reflection on either the character is badly written or not. Though i have to say i'm somewhat agree on that part...Stark is sliding more and more to the *****ebaggery...but hey, i remember he was written that way during the 'civil war' storyline, and it's the first time that i noticed the character...and start collecting the comics afterward heh
 
If crowd reactions and box office intake were indicators of quality writing and overflowing characterisation, then the top spots would have been populated by films like Citizen Kane, Lawrence of Arabia, Apocalypse Now and not Avatar and Titanic. :rolleyes:

I hate to sound like a broken record...but a CRITICAL success along with monetary succes would suggest that the movie got at least SOME qualty, right?:whatever:
 
it does have a bit of that fun indiana jones feel. good call on that. it just didn't have the moments of internal conflict i expected. i am also surprised we didn't get either a more popular villain or multiple villains.

I'm confused by this. Loki is the best villain to feature in the Marvel Studios movie universe, as well as probably the most popular, and his comic counterpart is one of Marvel's A-list villains, and in recent years especially with the JMS Thor run and the Dark Reign/Siege stuff has been widely regarded as being one of Marvel's best-written villains. Not to mention the fact that he was the actual first villain The Avengers fought in the comics. And Tom Hiddleston did a great job in the film. I don't see how you could have had a better choice for villain.
 
^^ The OP were just trying to bait people.

Most likely another frustrated , hardcore Nolanites
 
Paladin-Hoss said:
Can you explain more on how you came to this conclusion? to me ( and apparently many others) all the characters in the movie are clearly defined, with their own unique individual character traits, thanks to excellent writing by Wheddon.

What about all the corny-ass dialogue and cheesy moments in the Avengers?

"Sir, how will we know they'll come back?" "Because we'll need them to." Ugh.
"Captain America saved my life! Whereever he is, thank you." I actually facepalmed myself during this scene, it was that cheesy.

The whole bit Captain America and the cop going "why should I listen to you?". Cringe-worthy.

"Are you ready for this?" "Yeah, it'll be fun." Really?

Thor, Hulk and Cap looking desperately at a presumed-to-be-dead Iron Man, who then wakes up from a screaming Hulk thumping his chest. Chuckle-inducing the first time, but utterly silly on subsequent viewings.

Hulk throwing Loki around like a ragdoll and then Loki, with that stupid expression on his face letting out a faint whine. Textbook case of what not to do with your main villain: make a mockery out of him.
 
that's why i said the frustrated, hardcore kind...not the normal ones like you

:cwink:
 
Avengers had just enough substance on it to keep it from devolving into a mindless Bay-spectacle, but let's not pretend as if it was some shining example of how to do superhero characterisation on the big-screen, because it wasn't. TDK, Iron Man, Spiderman 2 and X-Men First Class are all superior to the Avengers in that department.

Avengers has "great characterisation" in the sense that whatever it does have is very good, but that still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't have much of it to begin with. That is not a knock or criticism of the film, because that is not what the film intended to be. The film appealed to a wide audience because first and foremost, it was "fun". A hilariously fun superhero movie at that. I laughed my ass off in my cinema, so did other movie-goers.

Yes, there were some nice character moments, no one is denying that. However RDJ grated on my nerves after a while with his "witty" banter. Some of it worked, some of it didn't. There were moments that felt cliched but that's par for the course in a movie dealing with multiple superhero characters.

Don't confuse the filmmaker's intention for your own. Your opinion is respected, but if you knew what Whedon had been capable of, he can compose deft characterisation, resonant themes and subtexts brilliantly as the next auteur. Mark my words. He's skilled in genre versatility and pathos and gives so much respect to the characters. He would have respected every single character in X-Men far better than Singer did, who didn't really understand Storm or Cyclops, for instance. I'm not knocking the latter nor am I lifting Whedon at anyone's expense, but one ought to give credit when it is due.

He is a remarkably deep storyteller, but his approach is different to other filmmakers', that is all. And that is not a bad thing.

He made TA very fun, that's veritable. But he wrote it in a way that anybody not looking for deeper texts could just have a ride, while those looking for otherwise would be greatly rewarded.

There is a reason why he has been maligned by Hollywood for a long time and that is because most people in the commercial vein never really understood him. Let's not forget he was a highly sought and uncredited script doctor. If you like Toy Story (which was the first animated film to be nominated for Best Screenplay), that's because of him.

The Avengers is a popcorn flick simply because its source material was never a social commentary nor a political allegory of some sort to begin with. So to make something that is not would have not been what its fan base may have necessarily wanted, but it doesn't certainly hurt now. The source material after all was originally about diverse superheroes with big egos banding together against global threats. Nothing more, nothing less. But Whedon has translated it so well to the screen so we ought to be praising his strengths, at least more than whatever flaws he has (and he does have them, of course, but the former outweigh the latter) because we're in a unique climate for several reasons: virtually everyone who was not familiar with Whedon questioned his capacity for an ensemble film, and the fact he changed so many minds is a testament to his technical and creative ability, and secondly the solo films leading up to TA set a precedent for a new type of fllmmaking, at least for the DC, as well as in terms of box office records. It's an interesting time.
 
Deep is relative. No, The Avengers isn't There Will Be Blood, and if you're holding it up against a film like that or Fight Club or whatever when talking about intellectual depth and nuance, of course it's going to suffer. Of course, it's a false comparison, as people aren't comparing it to that, and the film wasn't intending to operate on that level. Of course, The Avengers is still a summer action blockbuster, but within the perimeters of a summer action blockbuster, Joss Whedon crafted something that was highly character-driven.

It would have been easy to make something that was just like watching someone else playing a video game, all about the CGI set-pieces and with the characters just blank slates moving from point A to point B to drive the plot forward. Instead, the plot was in service of the character, and the dramatic high-points largely revolved around character revelations and shifting dynamics between people rather than the next big special effect.

Add onto that the fact that you had Joss Whedon's mastery of snappy dialogue and meticulous structure, and a quality ensemble cast who actually felt energised and on good form rather than slumming it for a blockbuster paycheck, and you have a film that felt like it had more substance and heart than your average summer blockbuster.
 
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