X-Men 3 plothole.

Discussion in 'X-Men 1, 2 & 3' started by Theweepeople, Nov 8, 2007.

  1. Theweepeople

    Theweepeople Registered

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    I haven't seen X-Men 3 in a while but, so I can't remember how the X-Men found out about Magneto's attack at Alcatraz. I can only think of a few explanations for how they found out and none of them satisfy me.

    A. Wolverine found out about Magneto's plans during his encounter with the brotherhood in the forest.

    This is unlikely since the most logical thing for the X-Men to do was alert the government about the attack so the military at Alcatraz would be prepared and they obviously weren't.

    B. The X-Men heard about the attack on the news.

    This is not likely because it would take the X-Men no less than 3 hours to travel across the US to stop Magneto in an attack that would have lasted for 5 minutes.

    C. Jean told Wolverine about the attack with her telepathy.

    This might have worked but, there is no evidence that Jean told Wolverine about the attack after Logan left the forest. If Jean told Logan while he was in the forest why didn't the X-Men inform the government when Logan got back to the X-Mansion.
     
  2. danoyse

    danoyse Snikt. Stab. Repeat.

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    He did hear it during Magneto's speech in the forest, and came back and told the others.

    Also, when they learned Magneto was going to attack the world summit in X1, they flew off to take care it themselves without alerting the authorites then, either.


    Actually, I think it takes about 6 hours to fly from NY to CA.

    And no, they didn't hear about it on the news.

    Wasn't there a deleted scene where Beast did try to warn them? I can't remember. I'm not even sure I care anymore... :oldrazz:
     
  3. Abaddon

    Abaddon Watching

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    In the Wright Brothers plane maybe.:huh:
     
  4. danoyse

    danoyse Snikt. Stab. Repeat.

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    I just looked it up. NY to San Francisco: 6 hours, 40 minutes. Even longer coming back. HA! :oldrazz:
     
  5. Abaddon

    Abaddon Watching

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    Not if you're in a jet.:o
     
  6. danoyse

    danoyse Snikt. Stab. Repeat.

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    Good point. :woot:
     
  7. Theweepeople

    Theweepeople Registered

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    I don't think this is a good comparison. The government had no idea who the X-Men were and what they stood for at this time. I doubt that they would have trusted them. The X-Men had revealed themselves to the government at the end of X-Men 2. Furthermore, the government's decision to give a seat in congress to a former X-Men in X3 shows that the government had a workable relationship with the X-Men. I still don't understand why the X-Men would keep this information from the government at this time.
     
  8. Abaddon

    Abaddon Watching

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    I wouldn't say they weren't prepared. They did have cure darts ready and available.
     
  9. danoyse

    danoyse Snikt. Stab. Repeat.

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    Yeah, but you'd think an attack that would wipe out all of the world's leaders and most of NYC would probably have been a good a time as any to introduce themselves.

    They did stop Magneto after all, why not let anyone know it was them who did it??
     
  10. Theweepeople

    Theweepeople Registered

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    I think you're greatly overanalyzing this. Did the X-Men really have time to reveal themselves to the government and prepare to stop Magneto? Of course not!!! Jean used cerebro to find out the rest of Magneto's plan and a few scenes later the X-Men were leaving to go to Liberty Island because there was no time to properly warn the authorities. I guess the X-Men could have made a phone call to the white house in flight to liberty island which would clarify a mutant named Magneto had a machine that turned humans into mutants. I doubt the authorities would have taken these threats seriously with such short notice.


    You do remember how fragile the relationship between mutants and humans was in X-Men don't you? The beginning of X2 showed that the events at liberty island made this relationship even worse. It appeared as though there was too much friction between the humans and mutants socially for the X-MEn to effectively reveal themselves at the end of X-MEn 1.
     
  11. danoyse

    danoyse Snikt. Stab. Repeat.

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    Well, you started this thread. :oldrazz:
     
  12. Theweepeople

    Theweepeople Registered

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    double post.
     
  13. Theweepeople

    Theweepeople Registered

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    I merely asked a question. I don't see how that's overanalyzing. Furthermore, I thought you would continue making a case for why you disagreed with me.
     
  14. X-Maniac

    X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    Yes, Wolverine heard Magneto's speech in the forest camp. When he got back, he told the others. Beast was there, having resigned from the government. Wolverine didn't trust the government (he earlier asked Hank if they had 'cooked up' the cure), Beast had left the government on bad terms. At that point they weren't collaborating with the government, nor indeed were they publicly acknowledged superheroes (like the FF, for instance).
     
  15. Theweepeople

    Theweepeople Registered

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    There's a lot that I don't remember about X3 however, I'm pretty sure there was no scene were beast confirmed that he was leaving the government for good. Tonight I will confirm this after I borrow the movie from a friend. Also, even if this was true it wouldn't make sense for the X-Men to keep this information from the government since they had developed technology to fight Magneto's army and would have been able to help the X-Men fight Magneto. Wolverine not trusting the government is irrelevant. At least I hope that's not the reason Ratner wanted us to believe why the X-Men wouldn't reveal this information to the government because that's completely insane.

    Finally, If Beast really did leave the government where was he at the very end of the film because I don't remember seeing him at the mansion. Did he go back to working for the government that he previously withheld information from because he didn't trust them? Would the government even consider giving him a job again after he betrayed their trust by not sharing the information on Magneto's attack plans?

    This is all speculation. You have no proof that any of this is true.
     
  16. ToriL90

    ToriL90 Guest

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    There were several scenes where Beast was at the mansion. I'm pretty sure he did leave to join the X-Men. As far as trust goes: would you trust an agency that shoots mutants against their will with a new drug that causes them to devolve to a different species?



    What about the scene where Storm is talking to Xavier in the hallway? Doesn't she say something about not knowing why they have to stay in hiding? That means, obviously, that they were in hiding.
     
  17. X-Maniac

    X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    Beast was furious with the president for having authorised the use of the cure as a defensive weapon, which was used on the prison truck when it was fired into Mystique. Beast and the president argue about it in the Whitehouse. Beast then leaves to go to the X-Men. It's quite clear he resigns from his post.

    At the end, having stopped Magneto and, against his conscience, used the cure to do so, Beast is obviously recognised by the government for his part in stopping Magneto on Alcatraz. The point they are trying to convey is it's now a better world for mutants, as is also evidenced by the influx of new pupils at the school.

    And you have no proof it isn't. This entire thread is speculative. The movie does require us to join the dots. The X-Men were hiding at the mansion in X2 (as stated by Storm on the X-jet), and they are still hiding there in X3 (as stated by Storm to Xavier). Xavier still isn't sure the time is right to reveal themselves. At the end of X2, they convinced that particular president to stop harsh anti-mutant measures and create a period of reflection that led to the appointment of a mutant secretary...but they still had a lot of work to do to create a tolerant society.

    The question asked in your post - how did the X-Men know about Magneto's plan - was clearly answered in the movie when Wolverine went to the forest camp and heard Magneto's speech.
     
  18. Theweepeople

    Theweepeople Registered

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    Yes I would trust an agency that shoots terrorist mutants that are trying to harm humans against their will with a new drug that causes them to devolve to a different species.

    Hiding from who exactly? Certaintly not the government. Their identities were revealed to the president at the end of X2.
     
  19. Theweepeople

    Theweepeople Registered

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    That's speculative. There's still no scene in X3 that confirms Beast resigned.

    So after Beast withheld this vital information from the government that could have allowed the military at alcatraz to be better prepared for Magneto's attack the government trusts Beast?



    Yep, and inspite of this all my questons are still relevant and some are left unanswered because there are no logical explanations for some of them.


    The public maybe but, that's irrelevant. My point was that they couldn't hide from the government after the events of X2.


    Yes, and this question I asked led to a more important question that was weakly addressed. There is still no logical explanation for why the X-Men withheld information about Magneto's planned attack on Alcatraz from the government.
     
  20. flavio_lebeau

    flavio_lebeau Registered

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    The military wasnt "better prepared". They had cure darts, which the X-Men didn't want to use, at first. I think this is why they don't want the government involved. And yes, Magneto says "We're going to Alcatraz Island!!" and Wolvie hears it. And Beast does argue with the president, leaving the government for the X-Men. In the end though, we're led to believe some good months have passed, and Beast was asked to return as an ambassador for UN, showing that the mutant/human relationship is going better than before.

    And the X-Men are hiding, like Storm says. The fact they present themselves to the president in X2 does not make them famous or recognizable as heroes. It was even a different president, who knows if the new one knows who they are. And by the whole movie, you can see that even with those superficial good behavior towards mutants in the beginning, the Government deep inside does not trust them or respect them at all.
     
  21. ToriL90

    ToriL90 Guest

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    You can't expect everything to be absolutely and explicitly confirmed in the movie. You're supposed to be able to figure things out sometimes. If movies didn't expect you to connect the dots from time to time, they'd be boring and redundant, like a kid's movie, telling you all sorts of things you already know and not leaving any room for interpretation. They expect you to connect the dots: the fact that Beast fought with the President, then all of a sudden showed up as an X-Man tells you that he left. The fact that the X-Men were working in secret, the government made curing weapons, and Storm said that they were in hiding tells you that they weren't on cooperative terms with the goverment. Remember, the old President was the only one who saw the X-Men in the White House that time - odds are, considering the fantastic nature of the appearance - a mutant creating a terrible thunderstorm while another mutant froze the minds of everybody in the room so he was the only one who saw it, and a big band of leather-clad mutants including the one who tried to kill him showed up to give him their message of peace and harmony - he probably didn't want to tell anybody 'cause people would think he went insane, lol.
     
  22. X-Maniac

    X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    It's quite clear Beast resigns. The scene with the President opens with the President telling him 'You think resigning's going to make a real difference?' and closes with Beast saying 'All the more reason i need to be where i belong' as he walks out. It's quite clear to me, and to those I have spoken to, that Beast quits. The novelisation confirms this when it has Beast and the President sharing what it calls a 'farewell drink.' But even without that farewell drink being shown in the movie, the scene is obvious. Beast ends up back at the mansion with the X-Men, which he wouldn't do if he were still in office.

    Thus, it's perfectly clear that Beast resigns.


    Beast had quit and the reason was that, as he clearly tells the president, that policy was being made without him - in other words, the weaponisation of the cure happened without him being involved or consulted, and he was angry about it. He quit the government. Therefore, he wasn't 'withholding' information as he no longer worked for the government. Any relationship between mutants and the government was broken when the cure was turned into a weapon. Regardless of those criminals on the truck being a threat, it was the idea of forcibly taking away their basic genetic nature that was so offensive.

    Of course there are explanations and of course the questions are answered. You're floundering here, as is shown by your opening question about how the X-Men knew about Magneto's plans - which was blatantly and flagrantly made obvious in the movie when Wolverine goes to the forest camp. That was the very reason for that piece of the script - so that the X-Men were aware of what Magneto was doing. It's also obvious that Beast quits - the scene mentions the word 'resigning' and shows him walking out and ending up back at the mansion. There's no need for anything to be made any clearer.


    They weren't 'hiding' from the government but they weren't working closely with them either.


    Of course there is. The government burned its bridges when it used the cure as a weapon (even if used against terorists, the idea of it as a weapon is quite obviously cynical and abhorrent) and put themselves on what Beast calls a 'slippery slope.'. Beast quit over that. The X-Men owed the government nothing at that point. The X-Men wanted to stop Magneto, save Jean and rescue the boy.

    At the end of the movie, some months had passed... as we can see from the progress on the rebuilding of the bridge. Human/mutant relations and Beast/government relations were now on a much better footing. Angel's flight over San Francisco hints also at a world in which mutants have far less to fear. And the influx of students at the school shows also that mutants have far less to fear.
     
  23. Theweepeople

    Theweepeople Registered

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    You do remember the military taking out half of Magneto's army in a few seconds with the cure darts don't you?:oldrazz:

    Imagine what an army of 200 troops would have done. Magneto obviously had no clue that the cure dart needles were plastic. If the X-Men had warned the government the military would have taken out Magneto's pathetic army without their help.
     
  24. Theweepeople

    Theweepeople Registered

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    This does not address what I have an issue with. When there is no logical explanation for some of my complaints I will not stop complaining.

    I don't have a problem with this.



    This is where I totally disagree. The X-Men were exposed to the government in X2. The government showed they partially trusted them by hiring one of their former members. Even if that former member designed to resign due to politics both the X-Men and the government had a common enemy. It still makes no sense for these two groups to not share information with each other if lives are at stake and they clearly were at the end of the film.


    You are greatly underanalyzing the events of X2. William Stryker revealed to the president who the X-Men were at the beginning of X2. What do you think the president did from that point on? A logical president and his advisors would have found out everything they could about the X-Men through the Stryker and whatever resources they had. I don't believe the president sat on his ass for the rest of the film and decided to not become more knowledgeable about a faction of mutants after one mutant tried to kill him.
     
  25. Theweepeople

    Theweepeople Registered

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    I never had a problem with Beast resigning so you can stop talking about this subject. I just didn't remember the scene were he resigns.

    I also, didn't have a problem with how the X-Men find out about Magneto's plan. I just couldn't recall the scene were Wolverine hears MAgneto say they would attack Alcatraz.

    The reason I started this thread is because I've always had an issue with why the X-Men didn't reveal Magneto's attack plans to the government.




    So you are trying to convince me that a former member of the government has no obligation to inform them about the probability of a catastrophy that would cause death and could completely destroy the relationship between humans and mutants forever? That's pretty hard to accept. Any decent citizen with half a brain would have tried to inform the government about the attack on Alcatraz if they had any knowledge of it. Furthermore, in the real world resiging from a position in congress usually doesn't mean cutting all ties with congress because that would be ridiculous. I'm sure Beast still had strong allies in congress because there's no way he got that position without strong support from some members. The question that still bothers me is why Beast didn't choose to utilize the remaining allies he still had by informing them about the attack that could have been less devastating if the government had been properly warned.



    So the X-Men aren't obligated to act like decent citizens because the government made a controversial decision that would be used to protect humans and mutants from terrorist mutants?


    If this is the sole reason why Beast withheld information from the government then his thinking is warped. I would like to ask Beast what was more offensive? Terrorist mutants who wanted to exterminate all humans and mutants who wanted peace or a weaponized cure that was being used to stop the terrorist mutants? The answer should have been obvious to any person with average inteligence. Unfortunately, Beast's high IQ and wisdom makes it impossible for me to accept the decision he made in X3.

    Already adressed. Let's move on.



    Yes, and the X-Men were still obligated as US citizens to try to prevent a catastrophy from happening by informing the government.




    You're right citizens who are mad at the government don't owe the government anything. Any citizens who know about terrorists plots that will cause the deaths of citizens, the destruction of property, and cause social turmoil shouldn't tell the government anything.:oldrazz:

    ]

    I don't remember a scene that confirms this. After cutting all ties with congress and showing a complete distrust by not sharing the information on Magneto's attack I don't see how Beast would be able to effectively work with the government considering that there are other mutant terrorists in the world and the weaponized cure could be used against these threats.
     

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