X-Men Dark Phoenix SPOILER Discussion

Discussion in 'X-Men: Dark Phoenix' started by carpenter82, Mar 3, 2019.

  1. Hand Banana

    Hand Banana Registered

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    It was explained back in X3 that the aura around Jean was psychic energy.

    I doubt causal viewers found this confusing.
     
  2. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    Considering the numbers, no casual viewers went to go see it. But beyond that, that is exactly who it would be confusing for. Like do you think people remember X3 in that detail, over a decade later no less?
     
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  3. Hand Banana

    Hand Banana Registered

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    Even in Apocalypse they say that was her mutant power. They never established that it was a cosmic entity.
     
  4. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    And then the cosmic entity known as the Phoenix Force shows up...
     
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  5. Hand Banana

    Hand Banana Registered

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    Except it’s never addressed as the “Phoenix Force” but a “cosmic entity” and it doesn’t resemble the aura that was around Jean.
     
  6. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    1. If you know anything about the story, you know what it is suppose to be.

    2. If you don't know the story, the movie is called Dark Phoenix and this shows up once the cosmic entity shows up.

    Do you think this movie is reviewing so poorly, being called confusing, or that this X-Men series is known for its poor retcons and continuity issues because people are making it up?
     
  7. C. Lee

    C. Lee Superherohype Administrator

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    I doubt the casual viewer even remembers it. The casual viewer doesn't watch and study superhero movies like most on here do. Many on here can point out something that happened in X3 because they have probably seen it multiple times and fairly recently. The casual viewer saw the movie a time or two when it was out 13 years ago....they may have watched it after it came out on home video or when it appeared on TV on cable. ....but they didn't study and discuss and argue every aspect of the movie. It was something to pass the time for a couple of hours a decade go.
     
  8. Hand Banana

    Hand Banana Registered

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    1. Except movies are not the comics. You should only look at the information given in the movies. In the film series interpretation the fiery-aura was explained twice to be Jean’s mutant power and not a cosmic force.

    2. “Phoenix” is just presented as nickname for Jean by the students in this movie. It refers to Jean rather than the cosmic entity.
     
    #1233 Hand Banana, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  9. Hand Banana

    Hand Banana Registered

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    Now if we are going to bring comics into this. This is exactly how Chris Claremont depicted “Phoenix”.

    The Phoenix Force stuff was a crappy retcon created six years after Dark Phoenix. Originally, “Phoenix” was just a codename that Jean made for herself after she had reached the full potential of her psychic powers thanks to bond with a nameless primal force that was thought to be a solar flare.

    Claremont later had Jean’s daughter Rachel develop a Phoenix raptor without the need of bonding with any cosmic entity(before the crappy retcon). So bonding with the primal force is not really needed to form that aura in Claremont’s vision. It runs in the Grey family.
     
    #1234 Hand Banana, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  10. icekid

    icekid Registered

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    The story is a mesh of how Chris Claremont originally wrote the story, with Jean and Jean alone responsible for her actions, no cosmic Phoenix Force involved, and the convoluted retcon that people have since associated with the story.

    It’s not called the Phoenix Force because as I said a while ago, why would intergalactic beings with no birds in their ecosystem (either in film or comics as we’re seen) associate this Force with a mythological creature from Earth. It’s hard to find a definition for this to use on film when the definition for it in the source material endlessly contradicts and retcons itself to fit its use in each storyline, diminishing its signifigance in what came before it each and every time.
     
    #1235 icekid, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
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  11. The Guard

    The Guard Registered

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    Exactly. Even in the source material, it's always been kind of nebulous and deus ex machina.

    Not that any of this explains why Jean would manifest a phoenix type visual in APOCALYPSE. Although to be fair, it only vaguely resembled a phoenix even then. It looked a lot more like a phoenix in DARK PHOENIX, but then, that was after she was christened "Phoenix" by the students...

    It's pretty clear that, dating back to Apocalypse, the "Phoenix" powers are meant to be something inside Jean, something she fears about herself and has to come to terms with releasing. The "dark" is something else, a cosmic force that she eventually masters and embraces.

    I got the sense that the cosmic force was meant to be evolving Jean into a near godlike state. Essentially amplifying her inherent powers. That seems to be the inference, at least, as the movie talks about the force destroying, but also creating life.
     
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  12. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    And then they added a cosmic force and then named the movie Dark Phoenix. Do you not get the inherent issue with that? As in it setups the Dark Phoenix being directly connected to the cosmic entity?

    The name is not just a nickname. Beyond the baggage that comes with the name, it is literally the name of the movie. Where Jean, once attached to a cosmic entity, something has been associated with the Phoenix Force for time immemorial, is identified to the audience as the Dark Phoenix. Whether they say it in the movie is irrelevant. Because the title of the movie tells us who she is. It is literally the selling point of the movie. :funny:
     
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  13. icekid

    icekid Registered

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    I see and align with some of your points but also suggest that you reread the Dark Phoenix Saga.

    It was Jean, it was always Jean. There was no Phoenix Force in that saga, there was no Phoenix persona. None of that existed in The Dark Phoenix Saga.
     
  14. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    Phoenix Force (Earth-616)

    It has been firmly established what the Phoenix Force is. It has been established for a good while no. Also if there was no Phoenix persona, why is it called the Dark Phoenix saga?
     
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  15. henzINNIT

    henzINNIT Registered

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    I think the past few posts have adequately displayed how garbled the Phoenix plot line is. On the one hand I sympathize with Kinberg who I believe earnestly wanted to bring the cosmic element in for the fans, while on the other it really doesn't mesh well with the previous depictions of the Phoenix... that he wrote. We can argue the details and comic lore but essentially we all know that the cosmic element was bolted on long after the films established it as Jean's own suppressed power.

    The irony (for me at least) is while we scratch our heads trying to work out what the film wants to be doing: untapped potential, a consequence of Xavier's manipulation, an alien entity etc etc; Kinberg has again missed what makes the Dark Phoenix tragic and interesting: How absolute power can corrupt a good person, and what it does to her family when Jean loses grip of her humanity.
     
  16. icekid

    icekid Registered

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    Because Phoenix is Jean, Jean is Phoenix...then it was retconned 25 years later into a seperate being and Jean had no recollection of her actions...then t was retconned again into her merging with her Phoenix self to regain her memories and being fully accountable for her actions.

    It’s confusing and is ever changing so you can’t blame the movie for not nailing it to a single cross when there’s so many of them.

    For instance, Jean was alive and was Phoenix for years, having even worked alongside the Shiar and the Imperial Guard long after her actions in the Dark Phoenix Saga. Then fast forward to years later when Jean died again and her much younger, time displaced self came to the present, the Shiar and the Imperial Guard took her hostage to hold her on trial for actions the original Jean committed as Dark Phoenix.

    Let’s also take a look at the Phoenix Force during Avengers Vs. X-Men. Again, Jean Grey for years after she was “rediscovered” alive after The Dark Phoenix Saga was alive and was The Phoenix for years. Working alongside everyone, including a few encounters with The Avengers. Fast forward to after her she died again and the Phoenix Aforce was coming back seemingly for Hope Summers to take her as a host, the Avengers were all of a sudden afraid of it for the genocide it committed during The Dark Phoenix Saga and wanted to trap or destroy it, sparking the entire war. They showed no such inclination during Jean Grey’s actual temper tantrums against anyone prior to her death at the hands of “Magneto”.

    Confusing? We know. It’s an example of retconned on retconn on retconn catching up to them. They flex its definition and backstory to fit whatever story they want to tell, such is the case with this movie.

    Point is, when Chris wrote the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga, it was Jean, and it was always meant to be Jean. The Phoenix Force was something created much later to revive Jean Grey and bring her into being a hero again without the weight of what she did during the Dark Phoenix Saga, which ruined the entire point of the Dark Phoenix Saga. It was retconned back and forth in the years since and if you were to look at all of that, how could you adapt it in a way that makes sense and pleases all sides when it itself only makes sense when looking at its parts rather than it as a whole?
     
    #1241 icekid, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  17. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    You can say it's retcon, but that is the story of the Phoenix Force as is established in canon, and understood by the vast majority that know anything about the story. And considering how easily it works with the original story (Jean is saved by a cosmic force and then becomes the Phoenix), it makes perfect sense.

    But of course, this all misses the point. If this is not the story of the cosmic entity know as the Phoenix Force, why do they have a cosmic entity in a movie called Dark Phoenix?
     
  18. The Guard

    The Guard Registered

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    Probably because they liked the idea of a cosmic force inhabiting Jean...but not the idea of the force being specifically a phoenix like entity.

    The movie is called "Dark Phoenix" for much the same reason that the original storyline was, because Jean, who essentially becomes "Phoenix", has a phoenixlike rebirth, and goes through a dark turn.
     
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  19. C. Lee

    C. Lee Superherohype Administrator

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  20. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    That sums it up all so well. Even Jessica Chastain's character, which should of been pretty straight forward, somehow ended up a confused mess she wasn't happy with. :funny:
     
  21. TheVileOne

    TheVileOne Registered

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    Yet another reason why this whole franchise is garbage and in the toilet. They can't even say the word alien in a movie where these characters are interstellar aliens from outerspace.

    You can't introduce a race of interstellar, shape-shifting all powerful aliens that seemingly have limitless powers in a movie universe that up to this point has never been allowed to establish that aliens and such beings exist, especially when it's the LAST movie in the series.
     
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  22. Frankeh

    Frankeh Registered

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    Even if one considers the comic mythology to be confusing, the movie series would need to have it's own logic to follow, and they can't even establish that properly. I don't believe for a second that when they had Jean whip out the Phoenix in the last movie, they intended to still have her engulfed by a space force later on.
     
  23. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    Yep. And we are talking about the kings of retcon and forgetting or worse not caring about what they wrote in the past. That is what is being defended.
     
  24. EnDz0n3

    EnDz0n3 Marvel Legend

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    The "space force" is obviously Kinberg having his cake and eating it too. It's Kinberg not being able to read a situation. It's Kinberg redoing Dark Phoenix but giving Jean another red coat. It's redoing Dark Phoenix and Kinberg blaming Xavier again. It's Kinberg redoing Dark Phoenix and shoving Magneto and Mystique into Jean's most important storyline.

    When people saw Apocalypse, they rightly complained about Apocalypse, they complained about the make-up, they complained about the shoddy VF/X. They complained about mute characters. They complained about specific characters' umpteenth heel-turns and repetitive arcs. They complained about Scott, Storm, Jean, Nightcrawler, Beast playing second, third, fourth, etc fiddle yet again to Xavier, Magneto, and Mystique.

    X-men: Apocalypse had MANY, MANY, MANY problems.

    One thing people weren't talking about was: "I wish Jean got her power from a space force. What is that thing at the end even?!?" After X3 and Before Apocalypse people might have been clamouring for a scene akin to Dark Phoenix's first act space mission. After Apocalypse, the one thing people were not clamouring for is for a retcon that further muddies this franchise's questionable decisions.
     
    #1249 EnDz0n3, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  25. Frankeh

    Frankeh Registered

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    And speaking of the title not making sense, there has to be a good Phoenix for there to be a "Dark" Phoenix.
     

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