Dark Phoenix X-Men Dark Phoenix SPOILER Discussion

[Mutant 77]

You're overreading into this too much, and it's ridiculous.

The comic book continuity is MESSY as hell, especially when coming to the crappy "Phoenix Force" concept they added later on in order to launch the redundant and shoddy X-Factor title.

In the Foxverse, original timeline(s), "PHOENIX" was the alternate personality of Jean Grey - generated by Xavier's heavy mental blocks over the years. In the original timeline, Jean ALREADY displayed the "firebird energy signature", because that is his natural mutant power. Period. "The Last Stand" established it, canonically. Like it or not.
There are several hints in X2 too, however.

In the new timeline, she never developed an alternate personality, because Xavier's mental blocks were VERY limited. He just suppressed the memories of the car incident and her father's refusal/repulsion.

She absorbed the "shapeless" Cosmic Force, and the Force became one with her and her Phoenix power. That's it. She did not develop any alternate personality, but she was driven "insane/out of control" by this unlimited, infinite power. Much more in line with Claremont's continuity and original intent back in the seventies, right? Right.

She is Phoenix. She has been Phoenix since "Apocalypse" occurred. Case closed.

 

[Mutant 77]

P.s: special effects and CGI on "Apocalypse" are fine. Change tune, it was a brilliant superhero sci-fi movie, very X-Men-ish.

 

[C. Lee]

P.s: special effects and CGI on "Apocalypse" are fine. Change tune, it was a brilliant superhero sci-fi movie, very X-Men-ish.

There are many things I could say about Apocalypse.....but "brilliant" isn't one of them.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

You're overreading into this too much, and it's ridiculous.

But a time-traveling Sebastian Shaw concept created just to explain away careless continuity issues isn’t?

 

[Mutant 77]

But a time-traveling Sebastian Shaw concept created just to explain away careless continuity issues isn’t?

This or alternate universe. It doesn't matter. The First Class timeline is a new continuity. No errors.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

This or alternate universe. It doesn't matter. The First Class timeline is a new continuity. No errors.

I love how you just hand wave everything away.

 

[TheVileOne]

You're overreading into this too much, and it's ridiculous.

The comic book continuity is MESSY as hell, especially when coming to the crappy "Phoenix Force" concept they added later on in order to launch the redundant and shoddy X-Factor title.

In the Foxverse, original timeline(s), "PHOENIX" was the alternate personality of Jean Grey - generated by Xavier's heavy mental blocks over the years. In the original timeline, Jean ALREADY displayed the "firebird energy signature", because that is his natural mutant power. Period. "The Last Stand" established it, canonically. Like it or not.
There are several hints in X2 too, however.

In the new timeline, she never developed an alternate personality, because Xavier's mental blocks were VERY limited. He just suppressed the memories of the car incident and her father's refusal/repulsion.

She absorbed the "shapeless" Cosmic Force, and the Force became one with her and her Phoenix power. That's it. She did not develop any alternate personality, but she was driven "insane/out of control" by this unlimited, infinite power. Much more in line with Claremont's continuity and original intent back in the seventies, right? Right.

She is Phoenix. She has been Phoenix since "Apocalypse" occurred. Case closed.

There was no Phoenix firebrand in X-Men 3. It was featured in Apocalypse.

 

[Cktopl33]

It has been firmly established what the Phoenix Force is. It has been established for a good while no. Also if there was no Phoenix persona, why is it called the Dark Phoenix saga?

As originally written, the Jean Grey incarnation of the Phoenix was Jean herself, having attained her ultimate potential as a psi, becoming a being of pure energy and reforming herself as Phoenix, only to become slowly corrupted by the manipulation of such foes as Mastermind and Emma Frost; unable to adapt to her enormous power, Jean was driven mad:

Returning from a mission in space, Jean Grey is exposed to the deadly radiation of a solar flare, and briefly attains her ultimate potential as a telepath and telekinetic. Jean becomes a being of pure thought, and then reforms herself upon return to Earth with the new costume, identity and power of "Phoenix".

The ending of the story was a matter of intense controversy with the editorial staff. Jim Shooter's recollections are that the original intent of the Dark Phoenix storyline was to introduce Dark Phoenix as a cosmic nemesis for the X-Men. This was what had been discussed originally amongst the creative team and Shooter, and this was the story development that had been approved.

However, on reading the issues over they agreed with Shooter that from the reader's perspective, she did not seem to be possessed, and Claremont admitted that while writing the Dark Phoenix Saga he was never clear in his own mind whether Jean Grey was possessed or her actions as Dark Phoenix were her own.

According to Shooter, Claremont out of frustration suggested that they kill off Jean completely. Although Shooter suggests that the proposed plot point was a bluff by Claremont, playing on the unwritten rule that main characters were not to be killed permanently, he accepted it, even over later objections by both Claremont and Byrne. Ultimately, it was decided by Byrne and Claremont to have Jean commit suicide after her Dark Phoenix persona resurfaces at the climax of the fight against the Imperial Guard.

Shortly before the publication of Uncanny X-Men #137, future freelance writer Kurt Busiek, then still a college student, heard about the upcoming events through the fan grapevine, as did fellow future comics pros Carol Kalish and Richard Howell. The three of them also heard that Marvel editor-in-chief Jim Shooter had declared that Jean Grey could not be revived unless it was done in such a way as to render her guiltless of Dark Phoenix' crimes. Taking this as a creative challenge, all three then-fans decided to come up with their own resurrection scenario (RETCON): Busiek's involved the discovery that Jean Grey was still on the bottom of Jamaica Bay in suspended animation following the original shuttle crash and that the Phoenix entity had used her body and mind as a lens, creating an immensely powerful duplicate of Jean, but one which grew more corrupted and distorted the longer it remained separate from the true Jean.

Claremont was "pissed off" when he found out about it: "That would have been one of those benchmark moments where - because I had played it for the next few years as long as I could get away with it - the other X-Men suddenly realize "We are mortal. We are not protected by the fact that we're all copywritten and trademarked."

 

[Xeno]

As originally written, the Jean Grey incarnation of the Phoenix was Jean herself, having attained her ultimate potential as a psi, becoming a being of pure energy and reforming herself as Phoenix, only to become slowly corrupted by the manipulation of such foes as Mastermind and Emma Frost; unable to adapt to her enormous power, Jean was driven mad:

At the time the Dark Phoenix Saga played out, I heard through the fan grapevine that it was the destruction of the D'Bari solar system that was the last straw for Jim Shooter. Marvel's heroes weren't allowed to deliberately commit murder as a general rule back then. The fact that Jean casually killed billions made her irredeemable. Why Claremont and Byrne couldn't see that still baffles me.

...unable to adapt to her enormous power, Jean was driven mad

This aspect of Dark Phoenix has always angered me. Jean's story, even now, is usually misrepresented as a tale of female empowerment, when it actually perpetuated age-old tropes of female weakness and inability to control emotions and/or power. Mastermind manipulated Jean's emotions and sexuality all too easily, weakening this nearly-omnipotent woman's mind to the point of madness with his ludicrous fantasies. It was utter, regressive bulls--t.

 

[Hand Banana]

This aspect of Dark Phoenix has always angered me. Jean's story, even now, is usually misrepresented as a tale of female empowerment, when it actually perpetuated age-old tropes of female weakness and inability to control emotions and/or power. Mastermind manipulated Jean's emotions and sexuality all too easily, weakening this nearly-omnipotent woman's mind to the point of madness with his ludicrous fantasies. It was utter, regressive bulls--t.

Interestingly, this movie seems to go in the opposite direction and have Jean over come her manipulators and the message is that her emotions make her strong rather than a weakness.

Her voiceovers also talks about her overcoming her destiny, likely referring to X3.

 

[Mutant 77]

Some meaningful considerations:

1- "Dark Phoenix" features the third alien element in the saga (D'Bari). Adamantium comes from an alien substance extrapolated from a meteor, and Apocalypse's special armour and body-swapping equipment/base is obviously alien (Celestial?).

2- In the original timeline(s), the Cosmic Force was orbitating around Earth in 1992, but the "Endeavour" shuttle wasn't there, as well as the X-Men (more specifically, Jean Grey). So presumibly, the Force ignored Earth and kept travelling across galaxies as always. D'Bari people followed it... elsewhere.

3- Hank uses a different (new) serum, because he can convert into Beast without getting "angry", as evinced before the train fight.

4- Mystique is the third X-Man to die in the final timeline, after Banshee and Havok.

5- Vuk must be a "mutant" D'Bari and not a normal D'Bari, because she managed to handle the Force and absorb it from Jean.

6- The helmet Magnet uses is the original one from "First Class", apparently.

7- DP Selene resembles LS Callisto a lot.

8- Beast is the first X-Man to join the Brotherhood of Mutants.

9- The Mutant Containment Camp must have been existing BEFORE the events of "Dark Phoenix". This means that humans STILL secretly feared mutants, despite the X-Men had become national heroes.

10- The KITCHEN where Hank confronted Charles is not the SAME where Charles met Raven for the first time, as claimed. The school has been rebuilt from scratch at the end of "Apocalypse", indeed.

11- In the movie, Raven criticized the use of identical uniforms. Surely she preferred the individual costumes at the very end of "Apocalypse".

12- Raven doesn't display any super-agility feats in either "Apocalypse" and "Dark Phoenix".

13- Beast's make-up in DP was the best out of the 5 Fox movies featuring Beast.

14- The "Killing Spree" of Nightcrawler is totally IN CHARACTER. First, he already had got his "sin tattoos" by the age of 18-20 (see "Apocalypse"), and this means that rage and other negative aspects are already present in him.
Besides, this version of Nightcrawler has a feral attitude, as evinced in the Danger Room at the end of "Apocalypse", where he growls like an animal.

15- Storm could have kept Apocalypse's power enhacement, after all. The impressive multiple lightning display is very powerful and never shown by any other incarnation of Storm before.

16- Storm apart, codenames are almost never mentioned.

 

[henzINNIT]

You're overreading into this too much, and it's ridiculous.

^^^

 

[Hand Banana]

And speaking of the title not making sense, there has to be a good Phoenix for there to be a "Dark" Phoenix.

She never really becomes Dark Phoenix in this movie when you think about it.

 

[EnDz0n3]

"Kinberg didn't ruin anything because Jean never really becomes Dark Phoenix."

 

[Hand Banana]

"Kinberg didn't ruin anything because Jean never really becomes Dark Phoenix."

What’s your problem? All I’m saying is that never truly becomes villainous. The story wasn’t really about her fall but her rise.

 

[Charzhin0]

13- Beast's make-up in DP was the best out of the 5 Fox movies featuring Beast.

Its the worst

 

[Mutant 77]

More observations:
1- Jean/Phoenix did NOT kill any cop/policeman... indeed, TV stated that.
In truth, Jean/Phoenix did not kill anyone outside the X-Men and did not destroy any major structure or building. The MCU train doesn't count.
2- Xavier knew about the Endeavour Shuttle before it would even happen. In fact, he was arguing about the X-Jet with Beast long time before the President of the USA would call him. How? Well, Xavier has still access to the memories he absorbed from Old Timeline Wolverine in 1973.
I'm surprised that nobody has noticed this.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Yet another reason why this whole franchise is garbage and in the toilet. They can't even say the word alien in a movie where these characters are interstellar aliens from outerspace.

You can't introduce a race of interstellar, shape-shifting all powerful aliens that seemingly have limitless powers in a movie universe that up to this point has never been allowed to establish that aliens and such beings exist, especially when it's the LAST movie in the series.

For me this was the movies biggest problem, it introduces these aliens and does nothing with them, totally wasting the talents of Jessica Chastain.

 

[Mysteryman]

There are many things I could say about Apocalypse.....but "brilliant" isn't one of them.

The only brilliant thing about Apocalypse is that they didn’t make it a 3 hour film, which I GREATLY APPRECIATE!

 

[Lookhowfunnyiam]

That is easy to explain. You probably don't read the comics. The Phoenix Force can manifest itself in the intended host even before it possesses them. We can see this in Avengers VS X-Men when Hope Summers manifest the Phoenix Force power even when the Phoenix was in deep space still coming to earth. This phenomena also happens with young time displaced Jean in the Solo Series of Jean Grey.

So, in the movies when Jean killed Apocalypse with the Phoenix force it only meant that the Phoenix was on its way to Earth to find Jean.

This is totally accurate from the comics. The Phoenix Force can manifest it's power in the intended host even before it possesses them. I think that their mistake was to not explain that in the movie because casual moviegoers like you would think this was a mistake.

I was watching the animated series back in ‘92 and reading X-Men comics since elementary school, but feel free to throw the “you must not know anything” comments around as if it’ll convince people that you’re not comically wrong.

Even if you were right - if you have to have read specific comics in order for a plot point in a movie to make sense, then the movie has failed fundamentally and pathetically. That’s not how movies work. I could list the thousand ways that this franchise alone has ADAPTED instead of directly copying, but you clearly have zero interest in actually being right.

Congrats at screaming at the sky really loudly, everyone here sure thinks that you’re a big kid.

 

[TheNewSlayer]

I was watching the animated series back in ‘92 and reading X-Men comics since elementary school, but feel free to throw the “you must not know anything” comments around as if it’ll convince people that you’re not comically wrong.

Even if you were right - if you have to have read specific comics in order for a plot point in a movie to make sense, then the movie has failed fundamentally and pathetically. That’s not how movies work. I could list the thousand ways that this franchise alone has ADAPTED instead of directly copying, but you clearly have zero interest in actually being right.

Congrats at screaming at the sky really loudly, everyone here sure thinks that you’re a big kid.

Fox failed by not explaining in the movie that The Phoenix Force can manifest in the intended host even before it truly possess them. They failed. But people who read the x-men comics like me knew about that. I cited one recent story from the comics where this happened, Avengers vs X-men in 2012, the Phoenix Force manifested in Hope even before reaching our galaxy, then Hope burned Wolverine to the bones.

They should have explained that in the movie. Would be easy. One scene with Xavier talking about that with Beast would be enough. But they chose to ignore and said nothing. I see a lot of people asking about this.

I feel like there are plenty people here in this Forum that would do a better job with this movie than Simon. Is like he doesn't fully know the source material and only read the x-men up until the Dark Phoenix saga and stopped reading.

 

[Mutant 77]

The only brilliant thing about Apocalypse is that they didn’t make it a 3 hour film, which I GREATLY APPRECIATE!

Your debatable opinion.
Silly haters didn't stop the movie to become a big hit anyway.

 

[ironwez20]

Lol that movie was far from a hit.

 

[Mutant 77]

Lol that movie was far from a hit.

LMAO check its global box office figure.

 

[ironwez20]

LMAO check its global box office figure.

Considering how the franchise is now I don’t think that mattters buddy