Xavier & Jean: Agree or Disagree?

[Coreo]

How do you feel about Xavier putting the mental blocks in Jean's mind? I'm totally against it. Jean could have learned to control it over the years. It would have been different if he told her what he did. He didn't give her a choice! No wonder Phoenix was so angry! Everything Phoenix did in the movie was because of him!

 

[Farren]

I'm torn on how to vote.

First, because hindsight is always 20/20, can anyone really deny Xavier kinda f-ed this one up?

That being said I agree with his idea to use the mindblocks at the time he started 'em. It's not clear from the movie how 'dangerous' or distressing Jean's powers really were at the time to herself or others, but I'm banking that they were causing her a lot of difficulty: she was too young, too powerful - I can't blame Xavier for trying to but on the breaks of her powers. This isn't just a case of Warren's pop wanting him to 'have a better life', this was probably more like Xavier wanting Jean to be able to have a life, period, without being overwhelmed by her abilities or harming anyone.

However, I've got serious issues with how he handled the situation. The way he talks to Logan about what he did shows he's pretty arrogant about it and really makes me wonder how much control he had been exerting over her.

Oh, and he never told her? Big big mistake - I don't see why he couldn't have informed her from the beginning - she seemed live an intelligent kid who would have been receptive.

Plus, and this is a biggie with me, he was aware that his 'sessions' were causing her to have a split persona, and STILL WENT THROUGH WITH THEM?! Didn't he pause to consider that this might be a downside? That he might be causing her serious damage psychologically? I got the impression he just figured, 'eh, not an issue for now - I'll just go ahead with it - screw her psycke'.

 

[ThE_PhOeNiX]

If he would have taken them off little by little jean could have fought the phoenix and caged the beast herself eliminating it in time.

 

[CapBeerCino]

Of course it was worng for Xavier to control her mind. That's one of the only points this movie manages to get across.

My problam is it was out of character for Xavier to control her and so was the arrogance surrounding that decision.

He was used as a plot device for no better way to explaine the Phoenix.

 

[Senshi]

Of course it was worng for Xavier to control her mind. That's one of the only points this movie manages to get across.

My problam is it was out of character for Xavier to control her and so was the arrogance surrounding that decision.

He was used as a plot device for no better way to explaine the Phoenix.

I am pretty sure this was also in all forms of the comic book, original and ultimate. It can't recall if Jean knew about the mental blocks but Xavier definately did it in the comic books and it was to her benefit. In the original continuity Jean was very young for having powers, 10 I believe, and her powers manifested when her friend was hit by a car and died. Jean felt everything her friend felt and became severly depressed until Xavier came in and helped her. He decided her powers were too powerful for her to control at her age and blocked some of them from her. In the film I didn't really see Xavier as being arrogant but more defensive. I saw him like a parent who really loved their child but had to make a difficult, life altering change for them. Wolverine questioned Xavier's motives and intentions and that's why he got snappy, just like any parent would when their parenting skills were brought into question. Bottom line Xavier really loved Jean like a daughter and he only did what he thought was best for her. Maybe his love for her ultimately clouded his judgement and he tried to hard to protect her and keep her safe than to expose her to the harsh realities of her powers.

Sorry this went on so long, I didn't mean to preach... I am just really tired and kind of started babbling on.

 

[Decay]

I'm neutral about this issue...but I think he did it for a good cause.

 

[Baredevil]

Age-old question here, really: Does the end justify the means?

 

[micky-fox]

I'm with the Prof. on this one, for sure.

 

[Baredevil]

This is a good question and I hope this thread gets some interesting and well-thought out answers.

I agree with Xavier trying to avert disaster by putting the mental blocks in Jean's mind. "With great power comes great responsibility", as a pivotal but dead character in that other successful Marvel franchise said, and the young Jean shown in the movie seemed far too young to handle said power, and her bratty attitude towards Xavier and Magneto in that first meeting must've truly convinced the Professor that yes, this one IS special, and must therefore be carefully handled.

That being said, though, I agree with the previous posters that, after spending years in the Academy and going on to become a doctor, Xavier should've given Jean some credit for emotional maturity, at least, and informed her about what he did to corral her powers. For a man who supposedly has very strong ethical issues about fiddling with peoples' minds, it was the least he could do for one of his closest students and allies.

As it was, Jean became schiz and when she learned the truth, went ballistic, as we all saw. A case of good intentions paving the road to hell.

 

[ico]

I am against what Professor X did to her. At least, the way he just stuck them in instantly without tryign any other method.

When he first met her, she seemed control and together. She wasn't floating stuff around the house uncontrollably (as she was in the present day) and she wasn't off destroying things, controlling peoples mind, and anything else for her ownpersonal gain. As far as we saw, everything was quite normal considering the immense power Jean had. Yes, we saw her float most everything in the street, but this was probably one of the only times she had ever done anything like this, or at least show-cased her powers in public.
A few things can be attrubuted to this theory;
a) the fact that the neighbours and people in the street were totally surprised and in awe when it happened, giving the impression that they had never seen anything like it before, ie: Jean had never used her powers to that extent, at least in her neighbourhood.
b) The family were seemingly living a calm, peaceful life. If Jean was using her powers willy-nilly, I'm sure they would have had a much stressful life; police bashing down their door every 10 seconds, neighbours constantly complaining, tons of aggro from people, Jeans parents going bald with stress, young Jean probably lashing out at the people making her life and her parents lives a misery, but no. All was calm. Her parents, though confused, seemed fine. Jean was fine. She was up in her bedroom when Xavier and Eric called round, seemingly not causing any problems at all.

My feeling is that as soon as Xavier saw what she was capable of, he seemed to just lunge at the chance to put the mental blocks in and control her, even though she showed no sign of needing to be controlled or being overwhelmed by her power.

Xavier could have talked to her. Taught her how to control her power. Tried to teach her right from wrong and the ethics of using her powers on other people. Afterall, she grew up to be Jean Grey (which was her natural personality) so we know she is intelligent and caring and would probably heed the Professors lessons.

But if this was not the case, The Professor could have tried simple things, such as maybe only blocking out her "arrogant" nature when she was a child. Surely he would be capable of this.

If the worst came to the worst, he could have introduced the blocks, yet worked at her power, slowly taking out the blocks, letting her take back her power, bit by bit.

Afterall, from what we saw, Jean did not need to learn to control her powers, because she could control them fine and dandy considering what we saw of her as a child. All Xavier really needed to do was teach her the ethics of using her powers.

I just find it so saddening that he simply violated her mind, caged her, and then simply did nothing whatsoever, causing Jean do develop a mental disability and yet he still did nothing!

Then when Phoenix, the bad personality that he basically created, finally takes a hold, what does the Professor think is the right thing to do? Thats right, put the blocks back into her head! Problem solved! Yet alas, she was too powerful for you now old man, and more than that, she was hella pissed! And then she killed you.

Talk about bringing it on yourself.

 

[ComicKoryn]

I am against what Professor X did to her. At least, the way he just stuck them in instantly without tryign any other method.

When he first met her, she seemed control and together. She wasn't floating stuff around the house uncontrollably (as she was in the present day) and she wasn't off destroying things, controlling peoples mind, and anything else for her ownpersonal gain. As far as we saw, everything was quite normal considering the immense power Jean had. Yes, we saw her float most everything in the street, but this was probably one of the only times she had ever done anything like this, or at least show-cased her powers in public.
A few things can be attrubuted to this theory;
a) the fact that the neighbours and people in the street were totally surprised and in awe when it happened, giving the impression that they had never seen anything like it before, ie: Jean had never used her powers to that extent, at least in her neighbourhood.
b) The family were seemingly living a calm, peaceful life. If Jean was using her powers willy-nilly, I'm sure they would have had a much stressful life; police bashing down their door every 10 seconds, neighbours constantly complaining, tons of aggro from people, Jeans parents going bald with stress, young Jean probably lashing out at the people making her life and her parents lives a misery, but no. All was calm. Her parents, though confused, seemed fine. Jean was fine. She was up in her bedroom when Xavier and Eric called round, seemingly not causing any problems at all.

My feeling is that as soon as Xavier saw what she was capable of, he seemed to just lunge at the chance to put the mental blocks in and control her, even though she showed no sign of needing to be controlled or being overwhelmed by her power.

Xavier could have talked to her. Taught her how to control her power. Tried to teach her right from wrong and the ethics of using her powers on other people. Afterall, she grew up to be Jean Grey (which was her natural personality) so we know she is intelligent and caring and would probably heed the Professors lessons.

But if this was not the case, The Professor could have tried simple things, such as maybe only blocking out her "arrogant" nature when she was a child. Surely he would be capable of this.

If the worst came to the worst, he could have introduced the blocks, yet worked at her power, slowly taking out the blocks, letting her take back her power, bit by bit.

Afterall, from what we saw, Jean did not need to learn to control her powers, because she could control them fine and dandy considering what we saw of her as a child. All Xavier really needed to do was teach her the ethics of using her powers.

I just find it so saddening that he simply violated her mind, caged her, and then simply did nothing whatsoever, causing Jean do develop a mental disability and yet he still did nothing!

Then when Phoenix, the bad[/i] personality that he basically created, finally takes a hold, what does the Professor think is the right thing to do? Thats right, put the blocks back into her head! Problem solved! Yes alas, she was too powerful for you now old man, and more than that, she was hella pissed! nd then she killed you.

Talk about bringing it on yourself.

Agreed; which is why I clapped when he got turned into powder.

 

[PSINGRAPHD]

Xavier was WRONG! NO QUESTION!!! IMO, no matter how pure his intentions were, they'll never justify his decision to alter Jean's mind without her consent. To me, it's the mental equivalent of rape for Christ's sake!

In all honesty, I am confident his methods were absolutely inexcusable, and find myself questioning his motives if anything. I think Logan's accusations incited more in Xavier than defending his parenting skills. They hit the old man hard, striking a VERY raw nerve. It's obviously an extremely sensitive area for him, and his (over?)reaction shows, AT THE VERY LEAST, he was plagued with doubt over it... and quite possibly guilt.

I'm not trivializing anything either, I realize such an intensely difficult situation is never black and white. It would be interesting to find out if he ever consulted with anyone else, say Beast or Moira. Boy, I sure would've liked to been a fly on the wall during what must've been some heated philisophical debates between him and Mags during all this early drama.

For anyone still questioning Xavier's actions, I suggest you read Farren's above post. If you have already, then read it again, 'cause there's some great insight to be found. Especially that last part, the fact he continued his "treatment" while KNOWING it was having an adverse affect on her mental well being. BASTARD!!! It was a rash decision; he should've found another way! Ultimately, HE is responsible for Phoenix and Jean's tragic loss of control. Ironic that the very man who tried to save her ended up destroying her, and himself plus countless others, in the process.

Awesome topic Coreo! ThanX! This is one we can really sink our teeth into! So much better than the mindless wimsy that seems to permeate and dominate these boards. Individuals seeking intellectual stimulation get tossed a bone here and there, but are forced to go elsewhere lest they starve mentally. Serious props!

 

[ico]

If it wasn't for Xaviers poor decision, Jean wouldn't have gone insane, would have had total control of her power, would've been easily comfortable with her powers enough to have stopped Magneto in X1 and control the damn burst in X2 hence wouldn't have died, wouldn't have developed the Phoenix personality, wouldn't have "killed" Scott, wouldn't have "killed" Xavier and wouldn't have had to die at the hands of Logan.

Granted it would've made the X-Men's lives a helluva lot easier, maybe even too easy with Jean in control of such immense power, and probably woulda made the movies quite dull, but I'm sure would appreciate it, being alive and sane and all!

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

I disagree.

Charles' heart was in the right place. It was apparent to me from the flashback that Jean was not only a bit of snot, but also rebellious in nature. She behaved exactly as the Dark Phoenix did--unreasonably. Notice, that for the entirety of the film Jean never ONCE reverted back to the woman we saw in the first two films...not once. She may have had some moments of amnesia, but for the most part, she was a carbon copy of her original personality.

Charles was proactive in handling her because she was dangerous. True, there were side effects to his "treatments" but he was genuinely concerned for her welfare.

She was nuts and out of control as a child.

She was nuts and out of control as an adult.

She was nuts and out of control.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

... since when was she nuts and out of control in x1 and x2? ... hmmm

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

... since when was she nuts and out of control in x1 and x2? ... hmmm

Several things in the prior films show that Jean was far from "okay". Remember, she started to check out in X1 during the Liberty Island incident--her attempt to master Cerebro is what damaged the circuit breakers in the first place.

In X2, she lost control several times--from warding off the second missile to her admission to inability to screen out "everything" at the museum, to her shaky telepathic contact with Nightcrawler. And that's not to mention Scott's own report on her homelife condition at the museum. And these are the reasons why Xavier held her at bay--and also why she was never placed in a leadership position with the staff.

As Edna Mode would say, Jean was "unstable."

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Like the Falcon in Empire strikes back?

 

[November Rain]

it's not like he stopped her from using her powers fully, i suppose over the yeas, he would have let her expand the horizon of her powers until she was mature enough to control all of it...

however, i guess the more he supressed it when she was hidden, the more of a split personality developed, probably to a point where it was safer just to keep the breaks on releasing the mental locks and keep it all subdued...

but it was unsmart for xavier to not have a contingency plan. I think him trying to work on jean's mind without the use of cerebro was simply foolish...

he should have known better

 

[ico]

Several things in the prior films show that Jean was far from "okay". Remember, she started to check out in X1 during the Liberty Island incident--her attempt to master Cerebro is what damaged the circuit breakers in the first place.

In X2, she lost control several times--from warding off the second missile to her admission to inability to screen out "everything" at the museum, to her shaky telepathic contact with Nightcrawler. And that's not to mention Scott's own report on her homelife condition at the museum. And these are the reasons why Xavier held her at bay--and also why she was never placed in a leadership position with the staff.

But Jean as a child was never like this. From what we saw she was totally in control of her powers. If Xavier had never interferred she would never have forgotten how to control them. Hell, he didn't even tell her that she had them. What a jerk.

Plus, why didn't the Professor do anything even though Jean was obviously becoming quite afraid of her powers advancing so rapidly in X2?

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

But Jean as a child was never like this. From what we saw she was totally in control of her powers.

Jean was a bit "big for her britches" as a child. She was disrespectful and had that condescending smirk of disgust on her face when these two elders came to chat with her. She was rebellious.

You call defiantly lifting your neighbors expensive cars and then wrecking them "in control"?

I call it reckless and irresponsible.

If Xavier had never interferred she would never have forgotten how to control them. Hell, he didn't even tell her that she had them. What a jerk.

No. That's not true. Xavier made it clear that they had "Sessions". So Jean was trained. That's how the Phoenix persona was identified in the first place. Remember, Xavier said that "in our sessions it came to call itself The Phoenix."

So it sounds like homegirl had darker issues from the beginning, but he brought her more positive personality traits to the fore...the woman we loved in X1 and X2.

 

[flavio_lebeau]

agreeing or not, i think that was a brilliant point of the movie, to show that the "good guys" arent always good. I always wanted to see Charles as a lil bit of a manipulator. Anyone who could have such a great power must feel a temptation to control people, even with all his idea of "the power corrupts".

I think the original idea of X1 was to show that Xavier controlled all the X-men, but the scene that showed this costed too much, or something like that.

Anyway, i love when Mags say "Are you sure you saw what you saw?". For me, its a subtle hint of that storyline, Xavier had actually planted the death of Senator Kelly into Storm, to force the X-men to see that the machine was killing humans and then make his pupils face Magneto. And in X2, during the "this helmet is what is going to protect me from the real bad guys". Some people say he's talking about Stryker, but for me, its Xavier.

Conspiracy Theory, huh? nah...

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

I loved that woman in x1 and x2

 

[ico]

Jean was a bit "big for her britches" as a child. She was disrespectful and had that condescending smirk of disgust on her face when these two elders came to chat with her. She was rebellious.

You call defiantly lifting your neighbors expensive cars and then wrecking them "in control"?

I call it reckless and irresponsible.

Show me a child who doesn't have a rebellious streak in them. And when she lifted the cars, I am not denying that she was "showing off" per say, I meant that she was physicaly in control of them. She wasn't going hay-wire like Jean was in present day when they suddenly surfaced again and she couldn't control them.

No. That's not true. Xavier made it clear that they had "Sessions". So Jean was trained. That's how the Phoenix persona was identified in the first place. Remember, Xavier said that "in our sessions it came to call itself The Phoenix."

I always interpreted it as that the Phoenix would never have been had Xavier not blocked Jeans powers. I saw it as in turn with supressing her power, Xavier blocked some of her mind/personality too, as her powers and mind are linked, therefore with these two parts of her mind blocked from one another, they developed into two seperate psyches.

 

[ThE_PhOeNiX]

Agreed; which is why I clapped when he got turned into powder.

Lol and i thought i was the only one.

 

[Coreo]

No. That's not true. Xavier made it clear that they had "Sessions". So Jean was trained. That's how the Phoenix persona was identified in the first place. Remember, Xavier said that "in our sessions it came to call itself The Phoenix."

So it sounds like homegirl had darker issues from the beginning, but he brought her more positive personality traits to the fore...the woman we loved in X1 and X2.

"...as a result (after the blocks were inserted), Jean developed a dual personality. In our sessions, it came to call itself The Phoenix"

The Phoenix personality wasn't always there. The Phoenix appeared after he put the psychic blocks in her mind. Jean didn't have darker issues from the beginning, they came when the Phoenix was born!