The Dark Knight Rises You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 1

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Valid points, Joker. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, lol. In any event I don't mind the idea of it as long as it's not over the top and becomes offensive.

Batman is a heroic vigilante after all. He's not a bad guy. I would not want to see it go over the top where he is just killing people for the hell of it.
 
Something I've noticed, some people have gone back to emphasizing Goyer's hand in the script. LOL.

For months and months leading up to it, all you heard was that Goyer is barely involved, that it was OSCAHHH WINNAAH Christ Terrio's lone written thesis. That he was gonna take us to the promised land of Oscar glory.

But now that they need a scapegoat, Goyer was apparently not as marginalized as they howled he was.
 
Valid points, Joker. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, lol. In any event I don't mind the idea of it as long as it's not over the top and becomes offensive.

Batman is a heroic vigilante after all. He's not a bad guy. I would not want to see it go over the top where he is just killing people for the hell of it.

That's the thing though. [BLACKOUT]Apparently he is proper hardcore killer. Like Punisher level bad. Again this is purely on what I've read from people who have seen the movie. Both published reviews and members of the Hype here. I've nothing against someone dying by Batman's hand if it's in an attempt to save a life, or collateral damage in a desperate situation with no options. That to me doesn't make him a killer. I mean Police officers have to kill criminals when they have no choice, and we don't persecute them for that or call them killers.

From what I hear this Batman is brutally murderous, and needlessly so. That's what bothers me.[/BLACKOUT]
 
Something I've noticed, some people have gone back to emphasizing Goyer's hand in the script. LOL.

For months and months leading up to it, all you heard was that Goyer is barely involved, that it was OSCAHHH WINNAAH Christ Terrio's lone written thesis. That he was gonna take us to the promised land of Oscar glory.

But now that they need a scapegoat, Goyer was apparently not as marginalized as they howled he was.

Is that actually happening? Wow.
 
I don't read the BvS forums. It's happening in CBR and DC reddit.
 
That's pretty pathetic. My buddy who hasn't been following all this stuff too closely was just asking me about where the negativity is coming from and if it could possibly be all Goyer's fault. I explained to him that while he's still technically credited, for all intents and purposes he's been shoved aside in favor of Terrio who has been promoted like he's the sole writer. So Goyer can't be the scapegoat this time. But I guess he still can! Haha
 
Goyer is always the scapegoat, lol. Such BS. I'll acknowledge that he is not a great dialogue writer, but the man deserves a lot of credit for that first hour of Batman Begins. It's still the best hour in the entire genre.
 
I'm really not liking what I'm hearing about [BLACKOUT]Batman being a brutal merciless killer. If I wanted to see that type of "hero" I'd watch The Punisher. It also begs the question of why is Batman's rogues gallery of villains still alive, especially the Joker? If he has no qualms for killing thugs, why aren't the real evil ones buried six feet under by now? It also bastardizes Alfred. Alfred would NEVER support Bruce if he was out killing like that. Neither would Gordon. He'd be leading a manhunt to bring Batman down.[/BLACKOUT]


Since you've already spoiled yourself in this regard, I'll say this, which shouldn't really spoil anything else but still read at your own risk:

The people who are saying that this Batman is a brutal, merciless killer are over-exaggerating what is actually shown and presented on film. Just about all of the supposed killing is done via the Batmobile and/or Batwing, and most of it happens in just one sequence as far as I can remember.

As in some previous Batman films, he fires his weapons at vehicles driven by and filled with mercenaries and also crashes into vehicles with the Batmobile, as the bad guys are unloading their firepower on Batman's car and plane. Some of these "bad guy" vehicles seem to be completely blown up by his weapons. There may be one or two times that thugs riding on top of cars are shown to be getting hit by bullets, but I'm having trouble remember after one viewing. Also, at one point, Batman launches a car into the air that lands on another car filled with thugs -- which is really no more callous than Batman driving the Tumbler over a cop car (and crushing it with a cop inside) in Batman Begins, although that cop is shown to have have unhurt.

Could some of these bad guys have survived some of the explosions and what not? Yeah, sure. Could some of them have been killed? Absolutely. But for all the supposedly brutal and merciless killing, none of the bad guys in these sequences are ever explicitly shown to have been killed. No dead bodies are on display. It also all takes place during high-stakes action/chase sequences -- like in TDKR, when it is explicitly shown that Batman shot and killed the driver of Talia's bomb truck with "the Bat"). He doesn't seek out criminals are murder them face-to-face in cold blood with his hands or handguns. When Clark and other characters describe or criticize what the Batman does, it is never said that he is a killer, or that he has ever killed anyone. The worst thing they say he does is brand criminals with his symbol, which can be a "death sentence" for them when they get to prison -- which is what's labeled as the "executioner" aspects of his methods.

This aspect along with his general brutality plays into Bruce's story arc in the film. I don't think it will come as a surprise to anyone that it will likely not be a permanent staple of this version of Batman moving forward into future films. I mean, that fact that he's on this misguided mission to kill Superman says a lot about where he's at mentally in this film and how he needs to evolve or snap out of it.

As a die-hard Batman fan, I truly believe in his no-kill rule and support it, especially the way it was handled in TDK. However, the killing and callousness in this movie didn't bother me in the way that would I thought something like this might. That's probably because it sort of comes with the territory of this version of Batman and the idea that he must somehow change himself and return to the form of his more hopeful "glory days". It was definitely surprising and jarring to see at first. My friend and I glanced at each other a couple times when we saw that this Batman gave zero ****s when it came to certain things.

I'd be much more bothered by it, I think, if it was presented in a much more overt, obvious, and intentional way -- like it was his absolute intention to kill the various bad guys he comes into contact with. Just my two cents, though. It's controversial, for sure.
 
Goyer is always the scapegoat, lol. Such BS. I'll acknowledge that he is not a great dialogue writer, but the man deserves a lot of credit for that first hour of Batman Begins. It's still the best hour in the entire genre.

I always say, Goyer is a good first draft guy. Considering that's exactly how he was utilized here, it makes it a bit more surprising that BvS's script has come under attack in some of the reviews. Especially after all the effusive praise thrown his way (and only his way) from the cast and Snyder.
 
Valid points, Joker. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, lol. In any event I don't mind the idea of it as long as it's not over the top and becomes offensive.

Batman is a heroic vigilante after all. He's not a bad guy. I would not want to see it go over the top where he is just killing people for the hell of it.


That's definitely not what happens, thankfully.
 
Since you've already spoiled yourself in this regard, I'll say this, which shouldn't really spoil anything else but still read at your own risk:

The people who are saying that this Batman is a brutal, merciless killer are over-exaggerating what is actually shown and presented on film. Just about all of the supposed killing is done via the Batmobile and/or Batwing, and most of it happens in just one sequence as far as I can remember.

As in some previous Batman films, he fires his weapons at vehicles driven by and filled with mercenaries and also crashes into vehicles with the Batmobile, as the bad guys are unloading their firepower on Batman's car and plane. Some of these "bad guy" vehicles seem to be completely blown up by his weapons. There may be one or two times that thugs riding on top of cars are shown to be getting hit by bullets, but I'm having trouble remember after one viewing. Also, at one point, Batman launches a car into the air that lands on another car filled with thugs -- which is really no more callous than Batman driving the Tumbler over a cop car (and crushing it with a cop inside) in Batman Begins, although that cop is shown to have have unhurt.

Could some of these bad guys have survived some of the explosions and what not? Yeah, sure. Could some of them have been killed? Absolutely. But for all the supposedly brutal and merciless killing, none of the bad guys in these sequences are ever explicitly shown to have been killed. No dead bodies are on display. It also all takes place during high-stakes action/chase sequences -- like in TDKR, when it is explicitly shown that Batman shot and killed the driver of Talia's bomb truck with "the Bat"). He doesn't seek out criminals are murder them face-to-face in cold blood with his hands or handguns. When Clark and other characters describe or criticize what the Batman does, it is never said that he is a killer, or that he has ever killed anyone. The worst thing they say he does is brand criminals with his symbol, which can be a "death sentence" for them when they get to prison -- which is what's labeled as the "executioner" aspects of his methods.

This aspect along with his general brutality plays into Bruce's story arc in the film. I don't think it will come as a surprise to anyone that it will likely not be a permanent staple of this version of Batman moving forward into future films. I mean, that fact that he's on this misguided mission to kill Superman says a lot about where he's at mentally in this film and how he needs to evolve or snap out of it.

As a die-hard Batman fan, I truly believe in his no-kill rule and support it, especially the way it was handled in TDK. However, the killing and callousness in this movie didn't bother me in the way that would I thought something like this might. That's probably because it sort of comes with the territory of this version of Batman and the idea that he must somehow change himself and return to the form of his more hopeful "glory days". It was definitely surprising and jarring to see at first. My friend and I glanced at each other a couple times when we saw that this Batman gave zero ****s when it came to certain things.

I'd be much more bothered by it, I think, if it was presented in a much more overt, obvious, and intentional way -- like it was his absolute intention to kill the various bad guys he comes into contact with. Just my two cents, though. It's controversial, for sure.

[BLACKOUT]So all the people saying Batman uses rifles to blow people away, and even nails one guy to a wall is all made up?[/BLACKOUT]
 
I found the Watchmen thing dumber. Did he even get what Watchmen was? It's an all out assault of deconstruction at the very concept of superheroes and how nonsensical and dumb they would be in real life.

Snyder is using that story's themes for Justice League, a team up of noble superheroes against space villains.

Do I even need to spell out how bafflingly dumb that is? What should be a celebration of superheroes is now gonna be why they are dumb, destructive and stupid. It's simply a POISONOUS vision for a cinematic universe for these characters.
The Justice League cartoon did something similar.
That show is a Marvel story using DC characters and areas.

The fanboy cycle is starting to shift it's gears again. Now I am seeing posts of how flawed MOS was, that Zack Snyder is not the man for the DCCU, that he doesn't get the characters or care, and how Nolan got it right with Batman and his trilogy.

I mean I knew the opinions would shift again once the shiny new toy hype died down, but not this quick. Amazing the effect of a bad critical response.
I love most of them, but I still poke fun at every one of them.
Speaking of Nolan, I was thinking how the changes made in his film story for Batman are lesser than changes made for MCU stories from pages to screen.
For starters, Jeryn Hogarth is a guy in comics, and not as ruthless as Trinity present him.. errm.. her.

Obidiah Stane is originally about as old as (or maybe younger than) Tony, in both original rendition and the comics, while Justin Hammer is almost as old as Silvermane, neither one of them was a partner of Tony's dad, one made a hostile takeover of the company, the other was just a rival.

The biggest changes from pages to screen in Nolan's Batman are Joker wearing makeup and carrying a knife (akin to Basil Karlo pre-transformation), Bane not using Venom, Harvey being deformed somewhere other than court, and Bruce Wayne pretending to be dead after saving the city.
 
Bruce Wayne pretending to be dead after saving the city.

Actually isn't that straight out of Dark Knight Returns, just changed a bit? In each one there is a fake death with a fake funeral. Instead of Bruce training an army of thugs to do his work while he hides underground in TDKReturns, Bruce disappears to Europe and leaves the Batcave to John Blake for training to continue the mission in Gotham in TDKRises. Either way it's the same general idea.
 
The biggest changes from pages to screen in Nolan's Batman are Joker wearing makeup and carrying a knife (akin to Basil Karlo pre-transformation), Bane not using Venom, Harvey being deformed somewhere other than court, and Bruce Wayne pretending to be dead after saving the city.

Basil Karlo wore a mask, not make up.

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Harvey being scarred anywhere other than court is not what I would call a big change. After all BTAS had him scarred in a chemical plant. And like redfirebird said, TDKR did something similar where he had a fake death and funeral.
 
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I doubt it's as bad as that. I really do.

Yeah, it's really not. For all its faults, it's still a largely ambitious film filled with interesting concepts and themes, great performances from its actors, gorgeous cinematography, expertly staged action, and a pretty compelling and interesting take on these two titans. Even the balls-to-the-wall finale -- which is loaded with over-the-top action and CGI -- is fun to watch and an improvement over the finale of MOS. I am usually among the biggest critics of needless CGI, but wasn't bothered by much of it here outside of a few spots and even appreciate a lot of it.

The things that are most heavily criticized in the negative reviews -- long runtime, too many subplots, JL teases and setups for future films/characters, dark tone, supposedly no "fun" -- are things I think that most DC fans and people in the GA will likely either enjoy or simply won't be won't bothered by. After all, most movie critics couldn't give two ****s about the Justice League, nor do they have passion and excitement for seeing those characters in BvS or the various upcoming films. I appreciate some of the "fresh" reviews that at least understand and acknowledge what this film really is and what WE have always known it to be -- a crossover event film that explores a central conflict between Batman and Superman (along with the conflicts within themselves) but also connects mythologies, expands the DC film universe, and the lays the foundation for the Justice League. These reviews admit that the film is not without its issues and aren't afraid to label those issues, but also express that the "good" outweighs the "bad".

In all honestly, I really don't care much about the negative reviews. They don't bother me, and I have no interest in trying to suggest that there is some widespread bias against Snyder or DC. It's a Snyder film. It was never going to get glowing reviews, nor was it ever going to be "the next TDK". However, having seen the film, I do find that the narrative picture that has been painted of the film by many critics and some people here -- that it is a jumbled together disaster and mess of a film with little to no redeeming qualities -- is just WAY off.

Not only do I think it's better and more of a fully realized vision than MOS, but it is not even remotely close to being the kind of disaster that the recent Fan4stic was -- a boring, soulless, and ultimately pointless franchise reboot that is nothing more than a desperate cash-grab and rush-job to retain the FF rights, which was marred by production problems, studio interference, phoned in performances by its actors, and reshoots that clouded whatever "vision" the director supposedly had for the film. Similarly, I would rank this wayyyy above something TASM2 -- a film with 3 villains, subplots that I would actually consider to be pointless and bothersome, teases and set-ups for a Sinister Six film that not even the biggest Spidey fans wanted (at least people WANT to see the Justice League come to fruition soon), rehashed aspects of the previous franchise, barely (if any) compelling drama, lousy and uncreative cinematography, and again, studio interference.

Furthermore, I have to believe that most (if not all) of you will prefer BvS over the completely generic and indistinguishable superhero fluff of films like Thor: The Dark World, which play it safe in the worst way and have no real emotional stakes. I even much prefer BvS to Avengers: Age of Ultron, which, while not a bad movie by any means, was little more than a rehash of the first film in almost every way but with more characters and oddly inserted teases to future films.

Again, just my two cents. I'm definitely excited for the rest of you guys to see it so that we can dissect it together and talk about all of the things that go down in the film.
 
Supposedly the version of BvS that was greenlit doesn't resemble what's onscreen. Hmm...

Now I'm curious about what Goyer had cooking.
 
[BLACKOUT]So all the people saying Batman uses rifles to blow people away, and even nails one guy to a wall is all made up?[/BLACKOUT]

I won't tell you exactly how it goes down, although you might already know, but he picks up a thug's rifle and shoots it at something that blows up a thug in order to save an innocent hostage that the thug was about to kill. In one of your previous posts, you said you had no problem with someone dying at Batman's hand in an effort to save someone's life, so I assume this won't bother you. The only other times he holds guns and kills people is in the "Knightmare" sequence, which is either a vision of a dystopian future or simply a dream, so that doesn't count. (Awesome and visually stunning sequence, though)

In regard to the second part of your question, he stabs a thug in the left shoulder with the thug's knife, sticking him to a wall, during a fight in which he is literally fighting dozens of people in hand-to-hand combat. Definitely didn't kill him.

Hope this clarifies things for you and maybe makes you feel a bit better about it.
 
@TheShape, you're helping me stay grounded just like in 2012 when you had seen TDKR early.

Just a little more than 24 hours to go for me. Gonna try to keep all this noise out of my head tomorrow, but it's gonna be tough, won't lie.

I have no doubt I'll enjoy BvS more than the Thor: TDW, AoU, even Ant-Man...if for nothing else than sheer Batman/DC-bias. The bottom of the barrel Marvel movies are things I just want to quickly forget and never watch again.

BvS at least has the potential to be something so divisive that we'll be debating it for years.
 
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Something I've noticed, some people have gone back to emphasizing Goyer's hand in the script. LOL.

For months and months leading up to it, all you heard was that Goyer is barely involved, that it was OSCAHHH WINNAAH Christ Terrio's lone written thesis. That he was gonna take us to the promised land of Oscar glory.

But now that they need a scapegoat, Goyer was apparently not as marginalized as they howled he was.

I read that in that voice Bill Burr does sometimes :funny:
 
I won't tell you exactly how it goes down, although you might already know, but he picks up a thug's rifle and shoots it at something that blows up a thug in order to save an innocent hostage that the thug was about to kill. In one of your previous posts, you said you had no problem with someone dying at Batman's hand in an effort to save someone's life, so I assume this won't bother you. The only other times he holds guns and kills people is in the "Knightmare" sequence, which is either a vision of a dystopian future or simply a dream, so that doesn't count. (Awesome and visually stunning sequence, though)

In regard to the second part of your question, he stabs a thug in the left shoulder with the thug's knife, sticking him to a wall, during a fight in which he is literally fighting dozens of people in hand-to-hand combat. Definitely didn't kill him.

Hope this clarifies things for you and maybe makes you feel a bit better about it.

I want that to be true, but then I read posts like this; http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=33229327&postcount=85

Well it's just so many people saying stuff like that. It just makes you wonder. For what it's worth I hope what you say is true.
 
I have no idea what all the spoiler talk is all about, but it really does make me all the more curious to know what is going on here.

I mean, if it has to do with Batman killing...it's not my favorite, but I also grew up on the Burton movies so it all depends on execution for me (pun...sort of intended).
 
@TheShape, you're helping me stay grounded just like in 2012 when you had seen TDKR early.

Just a little more than 24 hours to go for me. Gonna try to keep all this noise out of my head tomorrow, but it's gonna be tough, won't lie.

I have no doubt I'll enjoy BvS more than the Thor: TDW, AoU, even Ant-Man...if for nothing else than sheer Batman/DC-bias. The bottom of the barrel Marvel movies are things I just want to quickly forget and never watch again.

BvS at least has the potential to be something so divisive that we'll be debating it for years.


I have to say, I'm glad I was able to have another early-viewing experience as I did with TDKR. That one was 2 weeks early and I was literally one of the only people to see have seen it early (at this forum at least), but even with BvS, it was great to have a 1-2 day head-start on seeing the film before the spoilers, reviews, debates, and fanboy ********s flooded the boards. I'm a huge advocate of going into films as fresh as possible without letting outside elements taint your own potential viewing experience.

Yesterday, I was thinking about how different things would be for fans like ourselves to experience these films (and all films, really) with no Internet and no RT-esque website that provides us with tallies and "percentages" of all the movie reviews in the country. Back in the day, you basically got to read reviews for movies in your local newspapers (or even just one paper) or watch a critic give his review on TV before seeing a movie or deciding whether or not a movie was worth seeing, rather reading an entire collection of hundreds of reviews or simply checking a percentage that causes people to declare that a movie is either a disaster or the best thing since sliced bread before ever they've ever seen it.

I miss the prominence of things like Siskel and Ebert (and later Ebert and Roeper). Reviews and opinions of two people for a movie that sometimes aligned with one another and often differed, along with a quick conversation and debate about the film. That's a great system that doesn't play into "herd" mentality that sometimes arises from some RT scores.
 
Hoooleee ****. Moviebob's review is absolutely devastating. Completely scathing. Don't watch it if you don't wanna be spoiled.
 
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