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Discussion in 'Misc. TV Series' started by Thread Manager, Aug 12, 2012.
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]384441[/split]
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]382197[/split]
There's no real point in using lesser-known characters if they're only on screen for 15 seconds at a time, though.
It's great the Rocket is on the show, but I still know nothing about her, nor do I care about her. If they spent more time on the characters, it would be one thing. But it feels like they're just throwing characters in for the hell of it instead of using them for any real story purposes.
And I've said it before, I think they are just using a lot of the characters for diversity's sake. Nearly all of the expanded cast in the second season has been a minority of some sort.
huh, first time I've put the Thread Manager over the limit. didn't even notice the post count. yay.
There is a thread count? lol...the intricacies of the Hype.
Yes, I do think it is true they are just throwing some characters in with no purpose. I like to see them, but without purpose there are just scenery. That's why I'm hoping for a tight arc where there is thought behind who they throw in instead of just throwing them in for a fan shout out. I like those too and they have there place, but maybe mention their powers...or why they are there to begin with. It doesn't need to be big, but there does need to be something. So I agree with you on that point. However, I do like the diversity. I do think that helps give the show a broader appeal, but in the same vein it can't just be diversity for diversity's sake. The should be more proactive in their approach.
Interesting topic that Scarecrow_King and charl_huntress have brought up.
Generally speaking I feel that cameos and side characters in team superhero shows can be an indulgence that is too easily overdone. Every show has a main cast, a supporting cast, and various characters in the background. That's natural. The dilemma arises when there are so many characters vying for space that the main cast gets supplanted or even replaced or the show becomes one where determining who is a major or minor character becomes difficult. Virtually every X-Men cartoon to some degree or other has faced this dilemma and some have been bogged down in it for a time. "X-MEN EVOLUTION" 's second season got bogged down with the sudden addition of a dozen new characters. In fact the X-Men cartoon that probably kept things the simplest was the most recent "X-MEN ANIME". The roster is short, but kept simple. "JLU" basically was when "JL" faced that dilemma. Suddenly many regular cast members such as J'Onn or Flash or even Wonder Woman were being brushed aside for these dozens of heroes nobody asked for. And yes, while we got awesome characters out of it like Huntress, Question, Black Canary, and Green Arrow, we also endured a lot of wasted time on types like B'Wanna Beast, Hawk & Dove and so on. If the show was episodic all the way, that might have been alright, but "JLU" also dipped a toe into serialized storytelling more so than ever, which caused a dilemma.
The 2003-2007 "TMNT" series in contrast had a damn lot of characters in it if you wanted to list them all. I suppose the only major "cameo" characters were characters from other Mirage Studios affiliations such as characters made by Stan Sakai (Usagi Yojimbo) or other characters such as PLANET RACERS and so on. Yet the cast of the show was still kept simple no matter what, so the leads never got lost in the shuffle. At least until "FAST FORWARD", but that was a 6th season, and even the best shows jump the shark after 5 seasons or so.
"YOUNG JUSTICE" and especially "YJ: INVASION" I feel sometimes go overboard with the cameos. Villains will be tossed out like candy and never embellished, introduced, or even explained if a team battle is needed. Sure, everyone knows who Joker or Riddler are but what about Atomic Skull or some of those evil wizards in "MISPLACED"? While I did think Season 1 had moments of cameo overkill, Season 2 has magnified that with the added cast nobody wanted and the time jump. Rocket's introduction has mostly been worthless; just an exercise in paying homage to Dwayne McDuffie (a worthy aim, in fairness), providing a POV character for exposition summary in "USUAL SUSPECTS" and a power set to beat Wonder Woman in "AULD ACQUAINTANCES". Season 2 has reduced normal regular cast members such as Artemis, Kaldur, and Wally into reoccurring guest characters. They show up half the time, at best. While some of the new cast members were introduced in the previous season (Bumblebee, Mal Duncan, Beast Boy, Batgirl), others are just spare bodies such as Wonder Girl or Blue Beetle or Impulse or, yes, Tim Drake. Because the version of Dick Grayson in "YJ" took the one characteristic Drake was famous for - being a hacker/computer wizard - Drake really has nothing going for him besides a bo-staff and a new costume. All the traits of alternate Robin's always end up being merged with Grayson in adaptations, which leaves any others who arise as empty husks. "TNBA" solved that by having Tim Drake appear, but essentially with Jason Todd's origin and brash demeanor to the point that he as Jason in all but name. And of course we still get batches of new villains who show up out of nowhere with no explanation. Without proper build up, all they are is colored spandex people to punch. The time jump also robbed the regular characters of a damn lot of on screen development, to the point which they have to give so many long winded speeches covering the gap in time that it feels more like a stage play than a TV show. I know Greg Weisman loves his Shakespeare, but sometimes different mediums require different tools. Having a character read off a page long script about why they broke up isn't as good as SHOWING us why. Having Grayson become Nightwing isn't the same as SHOWING us how. Now it's just, "Oh, he's Nightwing, yay." There's no weight, nothing. It's just a character model change, even if it is one I like. And maybe there'd be time for that if the show wasn't bogging itself down with subplot about new characters like Blue Beetle or Impulse or L'Gann and so on.
The bottom line is I would rather have one steady and consistent cast and the new additions I want to see develop rather than thrown at me a dozen at once. "SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN" was good at that, albeit a solo hero show isn't the same. Instead "YJ:I" has devolved sometimes into a game of "How many people from WHO'S WHO OF THE DCU can I shove into the screen at once?" which is fun when you're 7 in a comic book store but gets distracting in a TV show. "JLU" made that error, "W&TXM" also had a clash of focuses and I hate to see this show willingly choose to wade in the same quagmire and succumb in similar ways. I'd like to see a show avoid the sand trap, for once.
That isn't to say that despite hitting the sand trap, that "YJ:I" can't be a very good, well written, and enjoyable show. I just see it as one obstacle it didn't avoid from previous shows and peer shows.
Full disclosure; "AVENGERS: EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES" second season also featured a metric ton of guest stars, who even filled in for the team for at least one episode. However, since I'm a Marvel fan and actually liked many of those characters, I didn't mind and even enjoyed it. But then again, I never thought the main cast was lost to the siege. Or it's all about preference.
The closest thing since "TNBA" was "THE BATMAN" Seasons 3-5. That show ran on Kid's WB/The CW 4Kids from 2004-2008. Batgirl turned up in Season 3 and Robin was added to the cast in the 4th. While it wasn't called "Bat-Family" by that stage, you still had Batman running around with two sidekicks. The 5th and last season were mostly episodes featuring team-ups with heroes from the Justice League (which foolishly traded Wonder Woman for Hawkman of all people, or any woman in general), but Robin & Batgirl still turned up. Technically, "THE BATMAN" was the last Batman cartoon to air on broadcast TV. All the rest since have been exclusive to cable networks. Plus, Greg Weisman did write a few episodes of "THE BATMAN" so it even links up with this topic. While that show did have some excellent episodes and even a season or so, it also had a lot of bad or mediocre episodes and I've forgotten much of it.
"BEWARE THE BATMAN" does seem to be coming close, with Alfred Pennyworth seeming to play a more action oriented role and Katanna as Batman's sidekick du jour. I just wonder why it couldn't have been Cassandra Cain if they wanted Batman to have an Asian sidekick this go around.
The logic is WB has no logic. And that's my final answer.
Link of my last replies to nygma619, to spare him some digging if he wishes to: //forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=24100563&postcount=968
I hope this show is not canceled as it's currently my favorite animated series about superheroes to date! I have been enjoying it, although I have enjoyed season 2 more than the first thanks to additions like Wonder Girl and Blue Beetle. I'm crossing my fingers it get's a 3rd season!!
Greg just needs to stop looking at this show as a DC universe show for everyone. Just because you have access to all of their characters doesnt mean they have to show up unless you need them to show up for a reason.
Because according to many DC insiders, Cass and Stephanie Brown are both considered "toxic". Not even the comic book writers can use them. I'm probably guessing the proposed Bat-Family pitch might have been shot down because Cass was in the main roster.
Though I'm thinking Katana's inclusion, besides a fascination in the character from the producers, will probably be leading into a "Batman and the Outsiders" premise, since Metamorpho is also scheduled to appear in the show.
That's actually how his higher-ups asked him and Brandon to take the show as: a show that will high-light the DC Universe.
Doesnt mean he has to jam pack 300 characters into a 20 episode season. Thats the only major problem I have with season 2 is that there are soo many characters showing up, that the main team/newbies arent going to get the development they need.
I think we all are at this rate.
Well said. I mean I am certain there are characters which have priority but the more there are hogging the screen, the more air time they demand and the more the focus gets divided. This isn't a solo hero show where they're supporting cast on the sidelines; they're heroes and heroines with their own histories and so forth.
I am aware of that "toxic" status regarding Cass and Steph Brown around DC Entertainment, and it seems pretty ludicrous and petty to me. That is part of why I often get overly anxious about Wally's fate and treatment in this show. He's become "toxic" at the New 52 too. "YOUNG JUSTICE" may be his last appearance in an animated show until management at DC changes. Thus, they have to get it right, or not at all. That was also why I was not pining for Impulse/Bart Allen. "YJ" and its supplemental pamphlet are literally the only thing DC is producing right now with Wally in it. So that's why I sometimes despair when the show chooses to spend that time having Wally skid across the ground on marbles or be replaced by Impulse, or act like a supporting cast member instead of 1/6th of the main cast.
I know about Katanna and Batman and the Outsiders and they all appeared in "BRAVE AND THE BOLD". It still seems odd to me, less organic.
Sometimes I feel the show tries too hard to be too big and neglects some of the smaller things like character. Especially when they have a lot of those on screen. Ambition is a good thing for a show - if you want a show which aims for the basement and botches even that, try "ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN" - but there is also a risk of going too far. I feel I know more about the plot of "The Light" than I know about Kaldur sometimes (even if I get his "stoic business" mentality). Which is a problem.
Yeah, that one Hawk & Dove episode was bad...lol.
I understand what you are saying, but those episodes weren't connected to anything and were meant to be episodic. For me that worked for JLU because the "unlimited" portion was about showing more JL members then just the core seven. As a DC fan it was exciting to see some characters that had never been seen in animation, or those who had made guest appearances in other DCAU incarnations. lol...I remember jumping out of my seat when I saw the Creeper.
I agree with this and jumping 5 years into the future doesn't help. Again, I don't mind the characters, but you have to give them some context.
Me too. Avengers is my fave & this is a VERY close 2nd. I've enjoyed season 2 more than te 1st because of Nightwing. I hate Ultimate Spider-Man & simply don't care about the Green Lantern show. Most if not all of the new superhero shows about to come out soon from Marvel & DC look horrible. Since Avengers is getting the axe I need this show to stay on more than ever.
I highly suggest giving GL a shot, I dont know if you watched it, but it took me my second episode in to get hooked. It's not on par with YJ or A:EMH, but its a fairly close 3rd. It's pay-off was better than the end of season 1 YJ, but was much lower than the pay off from A:EMH.
However, I found the stories to be less formulaic than A:EMH, but YJ obviously slaughters it. If I was to give A:EMH 9/10. YJ a 8.5/10, I'd say GL would be a 7.5/10.
I don't know. I found the GL pay off to be pretty weak. Atrocitus is just not that good of a villain and the final battle with Hal was pretty underwhelming. Not to mention that whole bit with Hal and Carol was really unnecessary.
Saint Walker and Kilowog were easily the best part of that dull season finale.
I agree,although I feel YJ had an even weaker one, with it just feeling an additional episode, opposed to a season finale.
Right. The dilemma with this trend repeating slightly in "YJ" is this show IS heavily serialized and thus the extra characters do bog things down sometimes at worst, and at best devolve into "spare hero" syndrome.
So am I, I just know that we've seen characters in Atlantis act in a variety of ways. Except for Aqualad, who you could sum up as his emotions being stoic, uptight, and mopey. But little beyond that. If being Aquaman's apprentice was such a heavy burden of a position (along with being around the man himself), than I don't feel they did a good job of showing that. I just feel given what we've been shown and told of Kaldur's background, and the way Kaldur has turned out, I feel that came across as a case of 2+2=5?
There's ALOT of people who seem to hate Lagoon Boy, but I can guarantee you THAT is at the bottom of their list of reasons why.
Personally I always found that to be a cowards way out writing wise. It always reeks of pulling your punches because your worried someone might not like what you come up with. There's always going to be something someone's not going to like, yet some people won't see it as a big deal. You just have to deal with it.
Please keep in mind that while I have stated that yes I do find Aqualad boring and dull. I've NEVER written that I don't think he CAN'T become an interesting character at all later on. I just don't think he is "right now". I was intrigued by him in Alienated, but I feel we regressed back to square one. With the possible exception of M'gann, Aqualad still reacts to and treats characters the same way he did the first time he met them. I can't say the same thing with the other 5.
Hell there was a scene in the comic recently where everybody was having a psychic conversation with each other, and Aqualad got so annoyed with it that he told them all to shut up and get their heads in the game. And that just because they're teens doesn't mean they have to be cliches. It was a nice badass military general like moment, that I wish they would've given him more of during the first season.
You say potato, I say pa-tato. At least in the context of this show I think it actually humanizes him more. Though to be fair that MIGHT not be the intent, but that's how I look at it.
And nobody else in comics isn't? Do you know how hard it is for even the most hardcore of Donna Troy (the first Wonder Girl) fans to even digest or make sense of her convoluted origins, backstory, or characterizations?
The only time he's tripped during a critical moment was in Drop Zone. All those other ones weren't as critical. Also where's this he's right 55% of the time come from?
I'd give it another shot if I were you, who knows you might be pleasantly surprised.
Thus proving my point.
That's grounds for writing off their character or characterizations HOW?
Obviously our opinions of that differ. Just because he asked for help doesn't mean he was helpless.
I think you and I both know that the ends really don't justify the means in that case.
So is Robin, and like his mentor he delivers more than just "bad ass" fighting.
Wally's no more a liability than Superboy is, who seems to get smacked around just as much. It seems your issue is that Wally doesn't get final blows in as much as Conner sometimes does. Me, I don't think it's a big deal.
That's not what you said at the beginning of the season.
Given that his subplot seems like it might be heading towards him taking up the Flash mantle I'm positive it will be much more than THAT.
I think you tend to over emphasize Wally being Artemis's "supporting character" just because his arc in season 1 revolved around her. Sure I can see why you would continue seeing it that way based on whats happened in the episodes of season 2 so far, but if that were really true Wally wouldn't have appeared before her in Salvage.
Maybe Wally might be inactive at the moment, but that's just "at the moment". Obviously his arc is going to be finding his passion for being a hero again. Sure Artemis might play a role in some of that, but I don't think it means he specifically needs her to get there. Hell by the time Artemis reunites with Wally it might resemble one of those scenarios where a soldier over seas has come home to find alot has changed while they were away.
I'm not saying I don't get how you've come to that point of view. I just don't think it rings true just because some characters get more screen time than others.
Yes, I can see that, which is why they need to think about who they adding instead of just adding them for the sake of it. Mabye this is too challenging for the writers though...
For me , I like the the inclusion of the characters even as shout outs. I don't like it all the time, but as a DC fan I like it.
In fairness some of the new characters were built up in Season 1, such as Mal Duncan, Bumblebee and especially Beast Boy. I suppose via a cameo you could make a case for Batgirl. However, the others essentially emerge out of ether and bring with them their own subplots, such as Blue Beetle or Wonder Girl, which supplant those of the leads.
I suppose part of the dilemma is that while I have read a lot of DC comics and know a bit about the lore, I am not really a DC fan. Or at least I am not nearly as much of a fan as I am a Marvel Fan, where I didn't mind those sort of "shout out" cameos in "A:EMH". Although I do tire of cameo overkill in X-Men shows. Heck, my general interest in DC was sparked by TV media. Syndicated reruns of the Adam West "Batman" show as a child and ultimately "BATMAN: TAS" formed the bridge to my current interest.
Welcome back, nygma619.
I wouldn't go that far but I do agree that the show didn't do a good job of showing that dynamic. Or a lot of things in general about Aqualad besides being "leader". That may as well be his emotional state at this point, which is a trap which sometimes befalls those characters in TV shows.
I know, they hate his corny dialogue, and naturally the fact that he's broken up the "ship" of Meganboy. Considering how humorless and bleak the show tends to be sometimes I actually don't mind Lagoon Boy's dialogue. Usually every team has that character who speaks in an odd dialect or lingo for laughs (looking at you, Thor, verily), and L'Gann fills that role. That said, I'm hardly a slavish fan of his or anything. Black Manta could turn him into a tadpole for all I care.
Overall I do agree, although unfortunately characters of certain background have cliches and stereotypes which will be ridiculed if gone near. The "black guy always goes bad" was one I feared the show dipped into this season, but thankfully avoided. Female characters run this risk too; make them too "girly" and people whine, make them too "efficient" and they become boring, etc. You can't please everyone so it is best to work with what you wish for better or worse.
He's had scenes like that such as in "ALPHA MALE", but overall I do agree.
I might agree if similar and consistent methods to "humanize" the other characters happened, but they don't to the same degree or regularity. Even "BLOODLINES" spent a great deal of time cementing how lousy a speedster Wally was in their attempt to spiff up Impulse. Was that really necessary?
And if that sort of thing "humanizes" a character, then damn, Orko, Snarf, and Deputy Fuzz are the most "human" characters around.
I never said nobody in comics wasn't. And I am very aware of the "walking continuity conundrum which walks like a woman" that is Donna Troy. A lot of DC's characters face such bits (Hawkman, Wonder Woman now) and the New 52 didn't aid matters. That said, Marvel editorial will spend a lot more focus and hassle on Spider-Man than, say, Hank Pym.
I was stating that I could guess Kid-Flash would trip or otherwise goof up at a critical juncture with his speed powers and be right 55% of the time (give or take). You and I likely have different measures of "critical".
I'd rather watch "BATMAN: BRAVE AND THE BOLD" episodes I missed.
It's grounds for becoming frustrated with a character and how they are handled.
Now you're reaching.
It was a similar example. I have seen tactics like that done in movies or anime sometimes.
Robin is a lighter character due to his circus background and Wayne's efforts to prevent him from becoming as dark a character.
It can be a big deal and I'm not the only one who feels that way. In commentaries for the first season of "JUSTICE LEAGUE", Bruce Timm and some of the writers answered criticisms for why Superman seemed "weak" in that season. They stated that they had been used to writing Superman in his own show, where he naturally would have to be physically challenged before prevailing in the end. Because team shows were new to them, they wrote Superman in a similar manner only they often gave other characters the prevailing move. Thus to the viewer it often seemed as if Superman was a bit lackluster. It was something Timm acknowledged as a misstep and stated they worked harder to improve upon with Season 2 onward, when the writing overall improved.
Superboy is sort of like the Wolverine of the group; he goes off alone and can survive and even when he messes up, he usually ends up being able to survive or overcome it. So it becomes a flaw which isn't a flaw because it is never treated as a flaw. When another character doesn't or others don't then it becomes noticeable. That is why while every writer has their favorites, it is usually best to not make them so blatant. Superboy's the MVP of the team. They literally could not function without him - hence why he is one of only three founders still with the team throughout it's tenure (next to Grayson and Miss Martian). He's cemented as the muscle very clearly, same as Megan is "the telepath". He's irreplaceable. Some of the others, less so.
The season premiere made one feel as if they'd skipped over a season between. It was 3 episodes before there was any word about Kaldur and four before any word of Wally or Artemis.
Even without that, a cameo role was always apparent at worst.
I'm not, because Wally always has those less than fantastic moments in comparison to Grayson or Superboy because it "humanizes" him. I guess that was why I could never get into Batman because I never saw him run into a ****ing door.
I doubt Barry Allen is dying this season and I doubt Wally will have much of his own subplot beyond piggy backing the subplots of Artemis or Impulse to a degree. That isn't to say those can't be decent to watch, but those two clearly have their own subplots to chase.
So, believing a character is a supporting character because they served that role for a previous season is wrong. Hmm.
You really count that rooftop scene in "SALVAGE" for Wally? He's just there to support Roy and Nightwing. While Artemis has an episode which mostly revolves around her and where she's going this season ("DEPTHS"), Wally's "BLOODLINES" is spent with him basically forced to play second fiddle to Impulse, who gets introduced at his expense to replace him on "the team".
The show hasn't been obvious about it all the time (which is where my disconnect comes in), but Wally is a support character. He exists to support other characters. So I imagine whatever gets him to don the suit again will revolve around either Artemis or Impulse, same as it did in "BLOODLINES". Artemis has shown she doesn't need Wally to have her own episodes or strong storylines. Wally hasn't shown that quality and I don't think he will. Impulse's future storyline is more weighty to the season as a whole (as all time travelers tend to be). As I state, there are far worse fates for a character than supporting a heroine like Artemis after all. The bottom line is the show has never really handled a subplot for Wally that didn't rely exclusively on Artemis and I am not expecting it to start now. Especially not in a season as crowded and busy, and sadly short, as this one. Wally's never factored into the major crux of the storyline before so maybe I expect too much of him now sometimes.
He's probably not going to play as equal a role in the "conspiracy" angle as Artemis, Aqualad or Nightwing because he's not in that position. Artemis is going undercover with Aqualad and it's Grayson's plan. Wally's just there because the plan involves his "best friend" and his lover. I'd be pleasantly surprised to be wrong, but unless anyone is involved in the show's production there's no way to guess that.
lol...it's a very interesting discussion though.
I was thinking, I won't be surprised if they decide to cancel this show in favour of Justice league.
Having this exact same animators with the exact or bigger budget, with Greg Weisman and co as story editors, since DC is now planning to do a Justice League movie I don't see why not.
And it could be based on this universe of Young Justice so everything that happened, happened.
meh...I want a new Superman cartoon. I will accept no substitutes...lol
We aim to please.
You dislike Superboy but like Superman? Interesting.
And here I thought I was weird for liking Cyclops but never caring for Jean Grey.
That certainly is possible and wouldn't be a bad idea. Greg Weisman is currently working for DC Entertainment and WB animation so why not keep him around even if CN decides to pass on a third season of YJ? Besides, the two things may not be disconnected. On his blog Weisman has stated that if he got a third season he would likely do another time skip. So it could be possible that a "third season of YJ" could essentially become a first season for a new JL show, set in the same continuity.
Of course, that would bare some problems. Namely, the YJ continuity features some characters which don't exist in DC's New 52, and it seems odd to have an animated universe which looks nothing like the comic universe. And Greg Weisman tends to follow his own vision more than corporate edicts. For example, the Flash in a Greg Weisman run, YJ continuity set "JUSTICE LEAGUE" which presumably would take place ___ number of years after "INVASION" would almost certainly be Wally West. Would it really be in DCE's best interest to have the Flash be Wally in a new "JL" show when he doesn't exist in the comics? Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Weisman didn't mind the notion of Dick Grayson being Batman.
In fairness, the Starfire who exists in RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS has little in common with the one who is about to appear in longer skits in "TEEN TITANS GO!" as a half hour show, and DCE doesn't seem to mind.