Discussion in 'The Dark Knight' started by ShadowBoxing, Jan 8, 2006.
I'll be the first in this thread to say the Joker's "comedian" origin is awful.. It's too literal, too lazy. It's like giving Batman an origin as a bat trainer or writing Two-Face as a retired ventriloquist. Joker's namesake and antics have nothing to do with comedy, especially the kind you'd find on stage. He's a wildcard, a joker in the deck.
Yay, I kept quiet and someone actually realized what was wrong with this thread. I love you Satan. Seriously.
Ok, here are my personal views on the Rogues (mind, this is a long post)
Joker - The man known as the Joker began his life as a street urchin, who began to make a meager living by playing poker with the deck he grabbed while stealing a purse. Over the years he became a pro at the game but was unfortunate to come across the head of a crime family. After beating him, the Joker took his winnings and ran, but he was caught by the mob and they beat him to the point of death. Deciding that if he was found, they would be as well, they dumped him in a chemical vat to get rid of him. Lucky for the Joker, the vat was drained as soon as he was thrown in, but not before his skin was bleached and his hair turned green. Looking at his reflection, he created his new life based on the one constant of his old one, the Joker card, and so began his future of chaos and murder.
The Mad Hatter - Once a child therapist, Jarvis dedicated himself to helping the children that he felt a special bond with, but over the years as his own daughter grew older, his mind began to create it's own world, his Wonderland, where he could play with the children and they wouldn't be in the pain in which he helped them through. One day, as he was leaving his home to go to the bar, he saw a young girl playing in a park alone. While he knew he should just leave her be, something in his mind decided that he should go talk to her. The girl was afraid of him, and she ran away crying, snapping Jarvis's mind and creating the Mad Hatter. He followed her to her home before leaving to go to the bar and a costume shop. That night he returned, dressed as the Hatter, and he took the girl to his self-made Wonderland, which was his basement. Using some experimental technology from Wayne Enterprises and the GCPD, he takes control of the girl's mind and then her body. He uses it on his family when they discover him, and to him, nothing is wrong. And that begins the tale of the Mad Hatter and his unwilling Alice.
Two-Face - The man who was Harvey Dent, District Attorney for Gotham City became the criminal Two-Face after prosecuting a Mob boss. On his way out of the Courtroom, the remains of the mob rushes him and throws a beaker of acid on to his face, horribly burning and scarring him. This event triggers the breakdown of an already fragile man, and the darkness overwhelms him to the point of murder, but the good in him is not fully destroyed. After every crime, in his perverted sense of justice, he flips a coin, one side the beautiful face of lady justice, the other marred by scratches, a reflection of himself. After killing someone close to Bruce Wayne, Batman begins his quest to aid his former friend.
Poison Ivy - While thought to be a kind hearted botanist, Pamela Isley is truly deserving of her criminal name. Under the cover of her flower store, she is a key member in the mob and a pawn of the League of Shadows, much like Scarecrow. Using the blue flowers and many others, she has created many different perfumes and poisons that are designed to grasp control of a victim's mind and body. One of her signature ways to kill is a special lipstick that she has immunized herself against which acts very fast to paralyze the recipient, and if they have a weak immune system, it will kill them. After being seen asassinating a witness by Batman, Poison Ivy learns to fear the night.
Penguin - Born of nobility in England, the arms dealer known as the Penguin begins to strike fear into the minds of the GCPD. While he is not physically imposing, being short and bald with a long pointed nose, the fact that his cultured appearance and socially acceptable reputation make it easy for him to be anywhere in the city making a deal involving weapons that could blow up Gotham. Soon his dealings are discovered by Batman, and he attempts to hide behind his image, but that is soon shattered.
Catwoman - Born into the elite of Gotham much like Bruce, Selina Kyle uses her fortune in a similar way, but for a different purpose. Using her public facade of money, power, and culture to keep the eyes off of her true job, a cat burgler. She begins to get a status like Batman, causing the public to worry about his true objective. After being attacked while fighting her, Batman knows that he must keep this battle out of the public eye, and he does, slowing unraveling the clues of her identity, but he doesnt realize that she's coming close to the man behind the bat
ok, there it is, as long as it was, and I apologize for taking up your time. I didn't write Mr. Freeze, because I can't think of a good back story, if sumone wants to PM the TAS one to me, I'd be much abliged.
?? what is this for?
A thread about how exactly the villians of the film should be introduced since half of us only care about the casting,this thread shows how its just not the casting that makes the character.The details are very effective.
Read the beginning of this thread.
Joker- No origin. Very charming yet ugly and sadistic. He should be extremely intelligent to justify his challenge to Batman. I liked Jack Nicholsons Joker but wouldnt mind a change as long as if an improvement. Big "if".
Croc- Should look like Predator minus the mandibles. But he should have the personality of a italian thug. Simple yet fearless. His overconfidence in his strength is ultimately his weakness. No circus origin. Born and raised in Arkham with an absolute hatred for authority. His weapon of choice should be a shot gun or machete.
Riddler- No jokey take on the character. Show the riddler killing people right away to show he's nothing to play with. This way it will be suspensefull when Batman struggles to solve the latest riddle. I think William H. Macy would be perfect. Put him in a green suit with a bowler hat to match. He should seem like a nice guy to make his brutal crimes even more disturbing.
Poison Ivy- I like the TAS version. She should be played by a hottie with curves. Redhead of course. She should be seductive in the begining so we all fall in love with her. But by the end of the film, when she has that crazy look in her eyes, we realize she is completely out of her mind. We become truly afraid of her.
I like bits and pieces of Master Bruce's joker origin the most
After having the Joker already killing people at the end of Begins - I dont see how they will be able to tell his entire back story and still have enough time for Batman and the other villians.
He could have been one of the guzillions of guys who got out of Arkaham at the end of Begins, which means he would be on file. One click of a mouse, and they would have his entire backstory, and Batman could just read it, and a montage or something could play as headlines cycle through and we get to read along... Or something like that. Either that or have Gordon mention some crucial details to an inquiring Bat after he gets a look at the guy.
I'd do the Killing Joke Origin more or less and boil it down to about 10-15 minutes
i honestly think that it will be told well no matter what way they choose to use
The Riddler: At first, I wasn't sure how I wanted him to be in the movies, but I felt somewhat inspired by Alex Ross's design of the character, which most of you have probably already seen quite a few times...
I then came up with an idea I am yet to see presented by anyone else. I think it would be interesting to have him be a dark and shadowy figure that only comes out of hiding to play his deadly mind games with unsuspecting citizens. Of course, he would be a genius, that is also an expert in making all types of bombs, that he would use in his games of wits.
He would be after Gotham City's most brilliant people, but how exactly would he get them to play his little games? What I had in mind was to have him stand in front of specific houses late at night and call the person living inside from his cellphone. When the person answers, he chats casually with them, like he's nothing more than 'another' fan... just before presenting them with 2 choices:
1. They play his little game, for 'fun';
2. They die righ away, along with their family.
If the person hangs up, their house blows up... literally.
If the person agrees to play, he starts asking them questions that keep getting harder and harder. If the person manages to answer all his questions, they "pass" to the next round, which means they are safe for the moment, but that he will contact them soon for "the next step". Whenever someone gets a question wrong, they are automatically eliminated... Eventually, Bruce Wayne becomes one of his 'victims' and maybe Batman could as well, since The Riddler feels he seems to have a lot of potential.
I like the idea that The Riddler would actually want to witness the events, rather than staying hidden far away in a secret place. Of course, he would have prepared all kinds of traps, in order to prevent anyone from actually catching him. For example, I thought that at one point, someone to whom he's asking the questions could spot him outside, watching him from across the street and then decides to take matters into his own hands and stop this madman, he runs out of the house and across the street to tackle the shadowy figure, which ends up being a dummy equipped with a bomb... and *boom*
So, is that any good?
Yeah, I just dont really like the Riddlers costume design
I think this guy would make a great mad hatter.
I'm elaborating on something I mentioned in another thread (the "Joker's look" thread -- saw that one before this).
I really think the Joker-as-failed-comedian angle is really, as some here have already put it, lazy. And I'd really be disappointed if I saw the film version take a similar route, that or the "mysterious street thug" story we saw in Mask of the Phantasm.
I really like the way Nolan has gone about the traditional Batman rogues. The bottom line is, they're straight out of the comic books, and damn right they're outrageous. The Long Halloween-ish approach, juxtaposing the traditional criminal syndicates against the flambouyant, mad wave of nutjobs that eventually take over is a really great idea. You just cannot take for granted that these are Batman's rogues gallery -- it's especially easy with the Joker, Batman's widely acknowledged #1 nemesis (as far as the public is concerned), and the public is definitely desensitized to the utter outrageousness of his character.
I'd like to see a spin off the Joker as delusional artist thing. For some reason, I see him as a Warhol-esque figure, eccentric head of a weird counterculture that nobody understands. The difference being, obviously, that this is the Joker we're talking about, and he's an absolute nut. I would like to see the Wild Card given justice -- let's not just limit him to being a "homicidal maniac" as he is too often depicted. I'd like to see more substance. I'd like to see a madman just as likely to kill as not -- no basis for prediction, a man with absolutely no logical reasons for his actions. His crimes could range anywhere from wholesale, indiscriminating murder to random crap like covering Gotham in tar and feathers -- again, the mad artist slant. I'm no writer, but in the right hands, I think it could be done well. He can be the guy that gathers together all the narrows escapees, albeit in a somewhat anarchical fashion, a la Project Mayhem. Or he can be utterly independent. Or even better, both. Again, I think utter unpredictability is the way to go with the Joker. This would also be a great way to cater to his every incarnation -- so schizophrenic and illogical, his personality lapses between charismatic jokester, sick blood-thirsty killer, childish prankster, etc. Possibilities are endless with him.
End rant. I agree with all of you in the NO ORIGIN camp for this one.
Well the down and out comedian is straight out of the comic books...in fact its taken as the official origin.
Now THAT I like. You've got to have a Joker with a sense of humor!
And I can really see the Mark Hamill Joker doing that "origin" scene.
My personal preference for Two-Face's origin?
A TAS-Long Halloween combo. The attitude of TAS Harvey with the acid sequence of TLH Harvey.
I wasnt a big fan of TAS - I like the idea of Harvey being a great guy ("Apollo") before being turned into Two-Face. TLH was perfect - no reason to change it.
Agreed. However, I wasn't clear in my own explanation. Mainly what I was getting at was just how Nolan has thus far treated the villains (every major character, really) very realistically with respect to the realist world he's been so hell-bent on creating. He justifies these larger-than-life, "straight out of a comic book" type baddies within the boundaries of that world. So with respect to that one point, I meant it more in the context of the Batman Begins world itself rather than Nolan's approach.
Don't get me wrong -- Killing Joke is definitely one of, if not THE definitive Joker tales. As far as the new films go, however, I would like to see a Joker functioning in a manner similar to that which I described earlier, but without the origin story. See everyone else's reasoning for that scenario -- the creepy factor, mainly.
I'm not directly addressing you specifically for calling me on that point, I'm just clarifying myself, because I know some of my post was scatterbrained and here or there. But aren't we all...
i like it though i think riddler should never be so personally attached and should instead be hidden. viewers shouldn't even really see him; he should always be in the dark.
also, i don't like ross's suit; i think riddler should look similar to jim lee's in HUSH.
i'd also like for riddler to know that bruce is batman and really use that to his advantage.
Well, this is long and I don't expect everyone here to read it but a while ago I wrote up my idea of the Joker's origins. I know I posted it somewhere before but I think it's appropriate here ... So...
This encompasses all the different versions I've read over the years (plus an idea or two of my own) and distills them down to one:
The Joker (unnamed) as a young boy: His father was a traveling salesman with a growing mental problem. He was slowly unraveling at the seams. Their home was less than extravagant. Lower middle class, I would say. Young Joker was the victim of self imposed isolation. He and his mother were afraid of other's finding out how the father was unraveling. Each trip back to the family would find the father going further off his nut until one night he came home and just collapsed in an unending rain of tears. He just keep repeating 'Laugh, Clown, laugh' through his tears. His father was put into a mental home and died there. It was discovered too late that he had suffered with a brain tumor.
The young Joker and his mother struggled on without him. The financial burdens were almost too much for them to bear. The mother's solution? She met up with a blue collar working man who would improve their financial situation marginally but enough. Unfortunately, the man was an abuser and often came home drunk with lipstick stains on his ripped t-shirt and leather jacket. Joker's mother withstood the frequent beatings and the infidelities for the sake of the roof over their heads and out of fear of more severe beatings. The new boyfriend disliked young Joker intensely. He was of the opinon that the boy was of no good use and a poof. .. a sissy. When left alone with young Joker, the boyfriend made it a point to slap him around thinking to toughen him up.
He was often tormented by the other kids at school because his clothes were not the nicest and that he was overly close to his mother. Having no friends and no refuge at home, Young Joker isolated himself even further - often spending time alone in the dump yards of the local landfill. Often discovering interesting things discarded by others. One day he came upon an old, broken refrigerator that a rat had somehow gotten into and died. This look at something dead and decaying fascinated him. Eventually he took to trapping animals and, exhibiting cruelty borne out of the violences used on him, left them in the refrigerator to suffocate and die. The decaying process interested him more than the killing.
One night, on returning home from one of his junk yard excursions, he had found his mother bruised and beaten. The boyfriend had gotten to her again. Young Joker found him still in the house ... and drunk. He flailed away with his small fists at the drunken abuser who was easily twice his size. The man dragged the boy out to the front room and decided he would teach the 'little girl' a lesson. He removed his belt and wrapped it around his fist like a strap. He started for his zipper and young Joker suspected what was up next.
He grabbed a fireplace poker and started swinging wildly at the boyfriend. The boy creased the man's face with it. The abuser was at once enraged, coming at the boy like a mad killer. He lunged at the boy and knocked him to the ground, smashing the ceramic clowns his mother had collected. The boy never let go of the iron poker, swinging it as best he could at his assailant. To cut right to the chase, the young Joker ends up killing the boyfriend.
The mother is sent to the hospital and social services puts the boy in a foster home not far from where he and his mother had lived. He still makes his excursions into the dump yard. He continues to put living things in the death trap refrigerator so that he can monitor their death. It gives him the only sense of control he has.
Another boy in the foster home, desperately looking for friendship and willing to settle for this odd person who has come into his life, starts following young Joker everywhere. Annoyed with this constant tag along, young Joker makes a huge bend in the wrong direction and locks up this other boy in the death trap. Maybe he had just intended to leave him for an hour to scare him but, once locked in the box, the fascination took over. The boy was left most of the night. When young joker finally released him, the boy was near death.
The authorities were called in and young Joker was sent to Juvenile Prison. While there, they transferred him to a psyche ward where he spent the years up to his 21st birthday.
On turning 21, he was released. It was his intention to build a new life out of the ashes of the old. He tried legitimate jobs. He even took a wife. The problem was, the money never went far enough and he never made much to begin with. At this point, he found himself in the hands of the mob having spent time in 'Juvie' with some of them. They offered him a chance to make real money. A chance to be a part of something big. He took it and started bringing home cash he couldn't explain to his now pregnant wife. So that she wouldn't have to be a part of this, he assumes a false name.. Jack.. Jack Napier. He manages to keep the two lives separate for a while but then it all comes crashing down when some hoods find his wife and do away with her. 'Jack' stops caring about anything at this point and just gives in to his cruelty. He is now Jack full time, leaving the name he was given at birth behind.
'Jack' becomes an ace hit man. Even his mob bosses fear him. This 'Jack' has a cruel streak that knows no bounds. They decide to deal with him. With rumours of a mythical' Batman' sweeping the city. They concoct the story of 'The Red Hood' with every intention of setting Jack up for the fall. Jack, who now has nothing to lose and takes nothing seriously anymore, agrees to don the hood and play the game.
The Red Hood ends, as we all know, with 'Jack' being dumped in a vat of toxic chemicals and, at last, the complete unraveling of his sanity. His new face resembles the broken ceramic clown that had belonged to his mother. He renames himself after the wild card ... Joker.
And there you have it. My take on how the Joker became who he is. How an abused boy becomes a violent gangster and psychotic killer. How he arrives at the name Jack. How he finally fulfills his destiny and become the most monstrous killer ever concieved.
... And, sorry Alan, he was never a stand up comedian. That part is just too lame for me. .....
Well I think I view the sequal as a chance to explore this origin in a new medium. The cartoon, movies, and TV shows never did a rendition of Killing Joke...here is there golden opportunity to do it IMO.