Justice League Zack Snyder Directing Justice League - Part 7

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]536559[/split]

 

[Micromind]

If someone is asking a complete stranger to save his mother when he can manage only a few words, what will he say ?

1) " Save *name of mother* "

2) " Save my mom "

I think the second option seems more like what one would expect to hear in everyday life, but it would be of little use, as it fails to convey who is supposed to be saved.

 

[idiot09]

One of the most badass action sequences(which is absolutely gorgeous in IMAX) was reduced to to an utter joke, which still hasnt died to this day.

So what becomes a meme is not really a good judge of quality.

Edit : Talking about the opening sequence in Rises.

 

[Erzengel]

The whole thing with what causes the Civil War based on the interaction between Tony and Steve in Avengers is also a meme.

There are different types of inferences with memes.

 

[BatLand]

I get why the Martha thing rubs some people off, I personally think it was fine but a little rushly executed. If Clark would've tried saying Martha Kent it would have been better. Like if he tried to say her full name but couldn't ('cause you know, Batmans foot on his throat), it could have worked better.

Also for me it was pretty obvious that Batman didn't know and didn't care about Supermans Earthly parents. The "your parents told you you mean something"-line was to me Batman talking about his Kryptonian parents. To me it was clear that Batman didn't even consider that Supes could've had an American upbringing 'cause he didn't see him as a person: "You're not brave, men are brave".

God damn I was so much looking forward to Bats and Supes resolving things in JL. Instead we got "I don't..not..like you". Uugghhh...

 

[idiot09]

I get why the Martha thing rubs some people off, I personally think it was fine but a little rushly executed. If Clark would've tried saying Martha Kent it would have been better. Like if he tried to say her full name but couldn't ('cause you know, Batmans foot on his throat), it could have worked better.

Also for me it was pretty obvious that Batman didn't know and didn't care about Supermans Earthly parents. The "your parents told you you mean something"-line was to me Batman talking about his Kryptonian parents. To me it was clear that Batman didn't even consider that Supes could've had an American upbringing 'cause he didn't see him as a person: "You're not brave, men are brave".

God damn I was so much looking forward to Bats and Supes resolving things in JL. Instead we got "I don't..not..like you". Uugghhh...

True. Their dialogue and camaraderie in the farm scene at the end was so good, and wish there was more of that instead of the cringe fest we got during the final battle. We might have had that too, if not for the reshoots.

 

[Aurakles]

Maybe we'll get to see it one day, if WB released each cut Snyder scene on separate DVDs, I would buy every one of them.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I would get Snyder's cut if they ever chose to release it. One day I hope they do, I just don't see it as cost effective. But, I'm curious to see how different the movie was.

 

[heatvision38]

If someone is asking a complete stranger to save his mother when he can manage only a few words, what will he say ?

1) " Save *name of mother* "

2) " Save my mom "

I think the second option seems more like what one would expect to hear in everyday life, but it would be of little use, as it fails to convey who is supposed to be saved.

Ultimately, I think he is trying to say Martha Kent as you can hear him choking out a K[gurgle, gurgle]tttt. If Snyder made that more clear for the audience, so that at least the audience knows Clark was trying to say Martha Kent but was struggling due to Bruce's boot on his neck, then I think people who didn't like the scene would have liked it better.

[YT]16NNbVOoS0U[/YT]

About 25 secs in. You can hear him saying "Martha" then choking out "K....e...nt." If it was just a little bit clearer, maybe that scene is received differently by a lot of people.

 

[misslane38]

About 25 secs in. You can hear him saying "Martha" then choking out "K....e...nt." If it was just a little bit clearer, maybe that scene is received differently by a lot of people.

I'd like to think so, but I doubt it. Maybe that would have been enough for some people, but the exaggerated nature of the reaction suggests to me a deeper issue. That the heroes escape disaster by an act of sentiment and love rather than a feat of genius or physical force, and that both heroes' love for their mothers was so central, chafes against a lot of traditional or toxic masculinity. Compounding the problem are years of bathos being used to undermine sincerity. In the absence of the film doing this, some viewers did it themselves, creating memes so as to detach from the scene.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

I'd like to think so, but I doubt it. Maybe that would have been enough for some people, but the exaggerated nature of the reaction suggests to me a deeper issue. That the heroes escape disaster by an act of sentiment and love rather than a feat of genius or physical force, and that both heroes' love for their mothers was so central, chafes against a lot of traditional or toxic masculinity. Compounding the problem are years of bathos being used to undermine sincerity. In the absence of the film doing this, some viewers did it themselves, creating memes so as to detach from the scene.

Yup, you got us. That's the issue here

 

[random_havoc]

One of the most badass action sequences(which is absolutely gorgeous in IMAX) was reduced to to an utter joke, which still hasnt died to this day.

So what becomes a meme is not really a good judge of quality.

Edit : Talking about the opening sequence in Rises.

It had great special effects, but requires you to not think about it at all to avoid thinking how utterly utterly stupid Batman would have to be.

Batman planned to kill him how? (and we'll just ignore how stupid it was that Snyder made Batman attempt to murder Superman at all here) It's pretty obvious his ultimate plan was to stab him with the spear. So where did he put the spear? A huge ass ways away from where he first takes Superman's ability away with the Kryptonite gas. Why? Apparently because he just wanted to beat him up first. Now let's analyze this. Batman thinks Superman is a potential mass murderer who could wipe out the Earth (whole reason he's doing this). He knows FOR A FACT Superman snapped the neck of a man infinitely more powerful than Batman is. Yet instead of going for a quick kill he leaves his best weapon a long way away, with enough time for Superman to recover his powers.
Ok, so maybe Batman just didn't realize how quickly Superman would get his powers back. But wait! Batman is STILL an idiot then, because after hitting him with the gas a second time he still takes his sweet ol' time working around to trying to use the spear. So he gives Superman ample time to murder him not once but twice AFTER exceedingly pissing him off/trying to kill him.

The ultimate tactician? For this scene to make any sense he'd have to be an idiot.

(The Martha thing was dumb but the scene was dumb before that)

And maybe you're saying, well it wouldn't be much fun if the scene only last 10 seconds. Yeah, but then that just goes to show how stupid the premise was, which is also the fault of Snyder and whichever executives came up with/approved it.
As soon as they announced it at Comic Con I was both excited to see the two characters together and cringing because I knew there's almost no way to pull off that concept in live action without problems exactly like this.

 

[random_havoc]

I'd like to think so, but I doubt it. Maybe that would have been enough for some people, but the exaggerated nature of the reaction suggests to me a deeper issue. That the heroes escape disaster by an act of sentiment and love rather than a feat of genius or physical force, and that both heroes' love for their mothers was so central, chafes against a lot of traditional or toxic masculinity. Compounding the problem are years of bathos being used to undermine sincerity. In the absence of the film doing this, some viewers did it themselves, creating memes so as to detach from the scene.

*facepalm*

 

[Spider-jedi]

apart from the Martha scene which let us all agree that we wont see eye to eye on. moving forward the one scene i never understood was the giant bat choking him in the dream. what was that for?

 

[chintai80]

apart from the Martha scene which let us all agree that we wont see eye to eye on. moving forward the one scene i never understood was the giant bat choking him in the dream. what was that for?

to show how this monster he's created (batman) is consuming him.

and it's busting out of his mom's grave.
so there's this connection between his unresolved guilt and ptsd around his mother's murder.

 

[misslane38]

Yup, you got us. That's the issue here

*facepalm*

It's the only conclusion I can seem to draw when every complaint about the "Martha" moment boils down to arguing logic and reason over psychology and emotion.

 

[Ninjablade]

I'd like to think so, but I doubt it. Maybe that would have been enough for some people, but the exaggerated nature of the reaction suggests to me a deeper issue. That the heroes escape disaster by an act of sentiment and love rather than a feat of genius or physical force, and that both heroes' love for their mothers was so central, chafes against a lot of traditional or toxic masculinity. Compounding the problem are years of bathos being used to undermine sincerity. In the absence of the film doing this, some viewers did it themselves, creating memes so as to detach from the scene.

If this was the case then people would have a huge issue with two of the most revered CBM's of all time. Both Spider-Man 2 and X-Men: Days of Future Past big central conflicts are resolved through two characters talking. Both movies go out of their way to show that just beating the crap out of the bad guy doesn't always work.

 

[misslane38]

If this was the case then people would have a huge issue with two of the most revered CBM's of all time. Both Spider-Man 2 and X-Men: Days of Future Past big central conflicts are resolved through two characters talking. Both movies go out of their way to show that just beating the crap out of the bad guy doesn't always work.

I don't think they're analogous, sorry. It's not just about talking. It's about the cause of the conflict and the source of the solution: mental illness and mother's love with Lois' love adding yet another layer. It's a lot of psychological vulnerability and feminine elements packed into the scene in one burst of a moment.

 

[Erzengel]

I don't think they're analogous, sorry. It's not just about talking. It's about the cause of the conflict and the source of the solution: mental illness and mother's love with Lois' love adding yet another layer. It's a lot of psychological vulnerability and feminine elements packed into the scene in one burst of a moment.

On your first viewing of BvS, did you get all that? Or was it through subsequent rewatchings?

 

[Ninjablade]

I don't think they're analogous, sorry. It's not just about talking.

So they're not analogous because you don't want them to be?

By your own words, people had an issue with the scene because it wasn't solved via violence or by a character solving some form of puzzle. I gave you two examples of where this is didn't happen, but they don't work because why?

It's about the cause of the conflict and the source of the solution: mental illness and mother's love with Lois' love adding yet another layer. It's a lot of psychological vulnerability and feminine elements packed into the scene in one burst of a moment.

What mental illness? If you're referring to Bruce having PTSD, which isn't really something stated in the film.

But if you want to go by that standard, then Spider-Man 2 becomes even better of a counter example. Doc Ock develops a personality disorder after the traumatic events of his wife being killed because of his experiment's malfunction. Peter's only way to solve the issue is to take the words of wisdom he received from the closest thing he has to a mother, Aunt May, and reason with Otto. In addition this just so happens to be a reflection of Peter's drive to continue being Spider-Man, as well as a counterpoint to his desire to being with Mary Jane.

Similar elements in different context.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Why do we fall, bruce?

Uh, so a hot french girl stabs me and I just stand there doing nothing.

 

[heatvision38]

apart from the Martha scene which let us all agree that we wont see eye to eye on. moving forward the one scene i never understood was the giant bat choking him in the dream. what was that for?

Great question. This is definitely a scene to be taken from a psychological angle. A) Bruce struggles with PTSD, so it would make sense that he has strange and violent dreams, especially with his parents involved.

But more specifically, B) This isn't the Man-Bat as a lot of people think it is. It's the BAT divorced from the MAN. In other words, Bruce's subconscious, which is the realm of dreams, is showing us that the man, Bruce (whom we see wearing his wealthy Bruce clothing, walking to his parents' mausoleum, holding flowers in his hands), was being swallowed by the Bat, the creature... that he's become more BATman, than Batman. If you remove Bruce from the equation, then you get a horrifying being indeed, which was represented by the Bat swallowing up the Man, as if to say Bruce was losing himself, his mission, his purpose and letting the Bat take over. Notice also that he was in front of his mothers tomb, we can only see her name, his father's name is obscured, and it was his mother's name that is his trigger, the last words he heard from his parents.

So, TL: DR: it's essentially a representation of Bruce losing himself, his humanity, to the Bat. It's a sign of how far he has fallen, and it's his subconscious trying to tell Bruce that he is getting to a point of no return.

 

[heatvision38]

to show how this monster he's created (batman) is consuming him.

and it's busting out of his mom's grave.
so there's this connection between his unresolved guilt and ptsd around his mother's murder.

Said in much fewer word than my post.

 

[heatvision38]

On your first viewing of BvS, did you get all that? Or was it through subsequent rewatchings?

Which part?