Justice League Zack Snyder Directing Justice League (The Snyder Cut Edition)

[Zorro]

Sad but true

 

[heatvision38]

Primal Slayer isn't wrong. You only have to ask yourself if a woman, a person of color or a trans person would get as many chances in Hollywood as Snyder (and many other white male directors) has had. Patty Jenkins has talked about how much pressure there was on her when directing WW. Because if that movie had failed then not only would her career have been messed up, other female directors would also get less chances.

The problem is not wondering it but assuming it.

 

[Micromind]

There's an Ayer cut for Suicide Squad?

His original vision was not shown, the footage exists, he just has to assemble it.

 

[chintai80]

I’d be ok with all the Leto joker footage coming out so people can finally stop fooling themselves into the idea that there was a good performance in there somewhere.

 

[Comicbookguy339]

The problem is not wondering it but assuming it.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that the claim that women, poc, and members of the LGBTQ community get less chances than their cis white male counterparts is just an assumption?

 

[heatvision38]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you suggesting that the claim that women, poc, and members of the LGBTQ community get less chances than their cis white male counterparts is just an assumption?

No, I'm saying that assuming the reason Snyder has gotten his chances is due to his gender or color absent other evidence is just that, an assumption.

Snyder had a very successful movie in 300. His Dawn of the Dead is well liked. There is certainly divisiveness among his DC movies but there is also passionate fans of his work as he does have a specific vision. He cast the actors for both WW and Aquaman, characters who have been very well received. And by all accounts, and this is important, he and his wife are a well regarded and respected producing team that essentially has an in-house production team that he reuses for his movies which makes the transition to new movies easier. The fact people talk about him to this degree, even still, means he has a voice as a director, whether one agrees with that voice or not.

So going back to my original post, it's perfectly fine to wonder if a person got a job because of factors beyond merit, but we also shouldn't assume that merit has nothing to do with why they got the job.

 

[Comicbookguy339]

No, I'm saying that assuming the reason Snyder has gotten his chances is due to his gender or color absent other evidence is just that, an assumption.

Snyder had a very successful movie in 300. His Dawn of the Dead is well liked. There is certainly divisiveness among his DC movies but there is also passionate fans of his work as he does have a specific vision. He cast the actors for both WW and Aquaman, characters who have been very well received. And by all accounts, and this is important, he and his wife are a well regarded and respected producing team that essentially has an in-house production team that he reuses for his movies which makes the transition to new movies easier. The fact people talk about him to this degree, even still, means he has a voice as a director, whether one agrees with that voice or not.

So going back to my original post, it's perfectly fine to wonder if a person got a job because of factors beyond merit, but we also shouldn't assume that merit has nothing to do with why they got the job.

That's fair I guess. But if you look at his box office track record and critical reception then he's not that successful. Watchmen, The Owls of Ga'Hoole, Sucker Punch, Man of Steel and Batman v Superman were all either box office disappointments or flat out flops. And this is where the cis white man angle comes in.

 

[Trevor]

There's a decent amount of people that still like his movies. Even his Sucker Punch is loved by many. Just look at this tweet that went viral:

25K likes. Some other tweet has like 75K likes.

There's clearly enough market which should already be evident by the RTSC movement, and even if his films are divisive at first, there are many like me who come around and appreciate them later either because they aged well or have much superior cuts.

 

[heatvision38]

That's fair I guess. But if you look at his box office track record and critical reception then he's not that successful. Watchmen, The Owls of Ga'Hoole, Sucker Punch, Man of Steel and Batman v Superman were all either box office disappointments or flat out flops. And this is where the cis white man angle comes in.

But we know it's not that simple. You would first have to rule out other reasons before assuming it's gender and race. I'm not saying they can't be a factor on some implicit level, but I think WB knows Snyder has a following. Watchmen may have not done well in the box office, but it's still heavily talked about and has grown in status since it came out. So has MOS. There is an appetite there and he has a unique vision. WB/AT&T clearly saw a benefit to releasing the Snyder Cut on HBO Max. Who is going to do that but him?

The bigger issue, imo, is the other way around. That Patty Jenkins would have to hit a homerun with WW in order to keep getting chances (as an example), that's a problem.

 

[Trevor]

But we know it's not that simple. You would first have to rule out other reasons before assuming it's gender and race. I'm not saying they can't be a factor on some implicit level, but I think WB knows Snyder has a following. Watchmen may have not done well in the box office, but it's still heavily talked about and has grown in status since it came out. So has MOS. There is an appetite there and he has a unique vision. WB/AT&T clearly saw a benefit to releasing the Snyder Cut on HBO Max. Who is going to do that but him?

The bigger issue, imo, is the other way around. That Patty Jenkins would have to hit a homerun with WW in order to keep getting chances (as an example), that's a problem.

Not to forget that the domestic home video sales of his films are great too!

Watchmen - $160M
Man of Steel - $120M
300 - $285M
Batman v Superman - $80M

And that's excluding digital sales!

Moreover, Netflix and AT&T have enough data to recognize his following and offer him huge budgets and free creative control to make more movies... Clearly this argument is baseless!

 

[Comicbookguy339]

Hey, I'm one of those people who loves Snyder's movies. And I support movie studios taking more risks so true artists can come out with interesting stuff. I'm not arguing that he shouldn't be allowed to make more movies just because they didn't set the box office on fire or please the masses. And I agree that the problem isn't that Snyder keeps getting chances but that women and people belonging to minority groups either aren't getting them or if they do then they are under much greater pressure to succeed. Primal Slayer was also pointing out this type of inequality with their post. I also felt like I needed to back Primal Slayer up because I saw so many posters roll their eyes at what they said. I'm a cis white man and I don't take offense when that term is used. It's really just a descriptive. The reason why it bothers some folks is that the term often comes up in discussions centered around privilege and how minorities are treated by society in comparison to the dominant groups and these are things that some posters just don't want to think about.

 

[Aurakles]

Hollywood is certainly rife with prejudice, it's a major problem that's obvious to see. Likely that has had some effect on his career.

However Zack Snyder seem to have something special even compared with other cis white men.

 

[Arachnerd]

its far past time to embrace the bizarre. I expect everyone else in hollywood to step their game up now. give me live action spider-verse, Keaton Batman Beyond, Joel Schumacher's 4 hour cut of Batman Forever

I want it all!!!!!!

My inner 10 year old is still wishing for this. Maguire, Garfield and Holland in a movie together... I would die of happiness. But it's only a pipe dream.

Primal Slayer isn't wrong. You only have to ask yourself if a woman, a person of color or a trans person would get as many chances in Hollywood as Snyder (and many other white male directors) has had. Patty Jenkins has talked about how much pressure there was on her when directing WW. Because if that movie had failed then not only would her career have been messed up, other female directors would also get less chances.

Here's the issue with their comment: the "cis het male" comment clearly came across as condescending (as it normally does when unironically used in an argument), and gravelly generalized the actual reasons why Snyder gets work in Hollywood. No, it couldn't possibly be because he has good working relationships with the people he works with and is an overall great guy. No, it has to be because he's male and white. Definitely doesn't come across semi-racist and semi-sexist at all, even if there's some validity to it.

If Snyder had been involved in the MeToo movement, however, that would be a different story. But he's not, so let's not put his accomplishments and qualities down just because of his gender and skin color. We're better than this.

I won't continue this conversation any further because I know where it is going and so I'm choosing not to respond in case you end up replying to my current post. Let us keep focused on the thread topic at hand, shall we? The last thing this thread needs is unnecessary discourse.

 

[moviefreak]

The film industry tend to be nepotistic. A lot of people are mostly related to one another, for example JJ Abrams's parents were tv/movie producer and his sister is a screenwriter while others tend to come from their own social circle/peer. I have no problem with that, however the Hollywood industry is heavily male centric and highly egositical, so very few women make significant mark in area like directing which tend to be heavily masculine in perception.

 

[WhoMani]

Of course he's getting work. He's a cis white man in Hollywood. He isnt the first one to flop multiple times and be rewarded, wont be the last. But his career seems to be the same it always has been, he directs a project roughly every 3 years. Don't get me wrong....I hope his cut is good since I stan for DC and have been wanting the DCEU to do way more than what it has so....Ill take my wins when I can.

You seem offended that he's a white guy

 

[Greenlite]

It’s the tone that oh cuz he’s this gender and race therefore bla bla, and ignoring the fact that dude lost his daughter, got pushed off work while he was working on the project to mourn, so suits can get their bonuses, has a solid fan base that support him for years, mourned with him, and achieved something that can open the gate for other fellow creative talents

Also he’d prob be one of the first to put gay kisses in superhero major films (Watchmen), talks about immigrants story with mos before the immigrant issue blew up mainstream, and insisted on casting another ethnicity for WW, insisting a WW solo film, and casting a queer, Polynesian and black in honor s JL film, helping 2 of them to become big stars

And he’s suppose to be framed as a white male (ass)? Like Prime Slayer should clear it up, if he/she thinks that’s what he/she meant or there’s misunderstanding etc (condenscending attitude and ignoring ZS’ history)

Like maybe support non white men to succeed would be a better way to go about rather than use race and gender to bash someone who, um, helped people with different race and color succeed in his projects

 

[Micromind]

Also, people saying that Snyder filmography is filled with Flop movies is wrong, number speak for themselves (Only taking live action movies directed by him)...

The Dawn of The Dead (2004)
Budget $26 M
Worldwide $102 M
(Worldwide collections / Budget) : 3.92
Commercially Successful.

300 (2006)
Budget $82M
Worldwide $456 M
(Worldwide collections / Budget) :5.56
Commercially Successful.

Watchmen (2009)
Budget $130 M
Worldwide $185M
(Worldwide collections / Budget) :1.42
Flop.

Sucker Punch (2011)
Budget $82 M
Worldwide $89 M
(Worldwide collections / Budget) :1.08
Flop.

Man of Steel (2013)
Budget$225 M
Worldwide $668 M
(Worldwide collections / Budget) :2.98
Commercially Successful. (not taking into account the Studio expectations and looking at pure numbers)

Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)
Budget $250 M
Worldwide $873 M
(Worldwide collections / Budget) :3.49
Commercially Successful. (not taking into account the Studio expectations and looking at pure numbers)

Not including Justice League (2017) as more than 50 % of the theatrical release was changed by Joss Whedon to the point that it is not Zack Snyder's movie.

So, Four Commercially Successful movies out of Six, then saying that majority of his films flopped is wrong.

 

[Comicbookguy339]

Just to clear up what I'm saying, I don't believe that Snyder (or any other bigshot director) just gets his chances because he is a white man. If that were all it takes then every white male director in Hollywood would have an amazing career and that's obviously not the case. And I also doubt that the people in charge of the studios actually go "he is a white man so I am going to give him another chance". But you can bet that a female/black/trans director would not survive three disappointments/ flops (Watchmen, Owls, Sucker Punch) in a row.

Heck, look at Patty Jenkins' career trajectory. Directed Monster in 2003 which won an Oscar and was nominated for tons of awards. She still didn't get to direct a theatrical film for another 14 years.

This is what she said about leaving Thor TDW

“I did not believe that I could make a good movie out of the script that they were planning on doing. I think it would have been a huge deal—it would have looked like it was my fault. It would’ve looked like, ‘Oh my God, this woman directed it and she missed all these things.’ That was the one time in my career where I really felt like, Do this with [another director] and it’s not going to be a big deal. And maybe they’ll understand it and love it more than I do.” The director shook her head. “You can’t do movies you don’t believe in. The only reason to do it would be to prove to people that I could. But it wouldn’t have proved anything if I didn’t succeed. I don’t think that I would have gotten another chance. And so, I’m super grateful.”

White male directors just aren't in the same position.

Oh and as far as box office is concerned, you can't just go budget vs worldwide box office. Studios only get like 60-50% of the WW gross and there is also the marketing budget on top of the production budget. So Watchmen, Owls and Sucker Punch all probably lost money. Man of Steel and Batman v Superman were successful, yes, but they fell short of expectations. I honestly feel like I'm playing the devil's advocate here because I don't want to badmouth Snyder. Just saying that Primal Slayer's post has merit.

 

[Arachnerd]

Oh, I perfectly understand that point of view. I just don't think Primal Slayer's post was without some bias and contempt with that particular comment.

Anyway, about that Zack Snyder JL thing that's apparently coming out next year.

 

[Comicbookguy339]

Oh, I perfectly understand that point of view. I just don't think Primal Slayer's post was without some bias and contempt with that particular comment.

Anyway, about that Zack Snyder JL thing that's apparently coming out next year.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

So apparently the launch numbers for HBO Max were pretty soft. Admittedly, these numbers don't account for pre-existing HBO subscribers who were grandfathered in but you gotta wonder if a soft start makes Zack Snyder's JL an even bigger priority for HBO Max.

 

[Detective Conan]

So this trailer is technically the trailer for Ayer’s version of the film before the trailer park guys got involved.

 

[Greenlite]

Also, people saying that Snyder filmography is filled with Flop movies is wrong, number speak for themselves (Only taking live action movies directed by him)...

The Dawn of The Dead (2004)
Budget $26 M
Worldwide $102 M
(Worldwide collections / Budget) : 3.92
Commercially Successful.

300 (2006)
Budget $82M
Worldwide $456 M
(Worldwide collections / Budget) :5.56
Commercially Successful.

Watchmen (2009)
Budget $130 M
Worldwide $185M
(Worldwide collections / Budget) :1.42
Flop.

Sucker Punch (2011)
Budget $82 M
Worldwide $89 M
(Worldwide collections / Budget) :1.08
Flop.

Man of Steel (2013)
Budget$225 M
Worldwide $668 M
(Worldwide collections / Budget) :2.98
Commercially Successful. (not taking into account the Studio expectations and looking at pure numbers)

Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)
Budget $250 M
Worldwide $873 M
(Worldwide collections / Budget) :3.49
Commercially Successful. (not taking into account the Studio expectations and looking at pure numbers)

Not including Justice League (2017) as more than 50 % of the theatrical release was changed by Joss Whedon to the point that it is not Zack Snyder's movie.

So, Four Commercially Successful movies out of Six, then saying that majority of his films flopped is wrong.

I would add that the MOS home entertainment sales was VERY good

Just to clear up what I'm saying, I don't believe that Snyder (or any other bigshot director) just gets his chances because he is a white man. If that were all it takes then every white male director in Hollywood would have an amazing career and that's obviously not the case. And I also doubt that the people in charge of the studios actually go "he is a white man so I am going to give him another chance". But you can bet that a female/black/trans director would not survive three disappointments/ flops (Watchmen, Owls, Sucker Punch) in a row.

Heck, look at Patty Jenkins' career trajectory. Directed Monster in 2003 which won an Oscar and was nominated for tons of awards. She still didn't get to direct a theatrical film for another 14 years.

This is what she said about leaving Thor TDW

“I did not believe that I could make a good movie out of the script that they were planning on doing. I think it would have been a huge deal—it would have looked like it was my fault. It would’ve looked like, ‘Oh my God, this woman directed it and she missed all these things.’ That was the one time in my career where I really felt like, Do this with [another director] and it’s not going to be a big deal. And maybe they’ll understand it and love it more than I do.” The director shook her head. “You can’t do movies you don’t believe in. The only reason to do it would be to prove to people that I could. But it wouldn’t have proved anything if I didn’t succeed. I don’t think that I would have gotten another chance. And so, I’m super grateful.”

White male directors just aren't in the same position.

Oh and as far as box office is concerned, you can't just go budget vs worldwide box office. Studios only get like 60-50% of the WW gross and there is also the marketing budget on top of the production budget. So Watchmen, Owls and Sucker Punch all probably lost money. Man of Steel and Batman v Superman were successful, yes, but they fell short of expectations. I honestly feel like I'm playing the devil's advocate here because I don't want to badmouth Snyder. Just saying that Primal Slayer's post has merit.

Micromind’s pretty onto the box office stuff over the years haha, so basically times the budget by 3 then compare with the box office numbers and Zack does his box office with a higher US ratio compared to other films like FF, Harry Potter, MCU etc, so he had great profit with the first 2 (300 was a huge hit (456M without China in 2007), 2 flops, then 2 commercial successes (MOS had strength home sales, BvS was chopped by suits demand so lost a lot of technical points with critics, albeit would have been divisive anyway with a full cut)

So he’s mostly successful with an asterisk?

But people like Patty, Cathy Yan, Rick F and the demo they represent should definitely be given the same opportunities ya, a system overhaul might be needed. But keep guys like Zack, one of the few white men that actively give a diverse demo opportunities

 

[Greenlite]

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

So apparently the launch numbers for HBO Max were pretty soft. Admittedly, these numbers don't account for pre-existing HBO subscribers who were grandfathered in but you gotta wonder if a soft start makes Zack Snyder's JL an even bigger priority for HBO Max.

Grace said the suits might be over their heads and give the first crack to Ayer lol. Since it’s basically done and he’s loud about it. And if it doesn’t get subscriptions in when released then it will affect Zack.

Her video was funny, she was not happy, told ZS to tone Ayer down, and he should be the first to have it out after 3 yrs of hard work, she concluded maybe the fans don’t care (which was exactly what I thought right at that moment LOL) her points went over my head but I think I get the meaning.

Ayer does look like he’s using someone else’s bandwagon lol

 

[Rorschach2012]

If the Ayer cut is still ****ty and it comes out before the Snyder Cut, it’s clear that it could have negative repercussions for the Snyder Cut. I want the Snyder Cut to be huge and get a sequel. Let the Ayer Cut release after the Snyder Cut.

 

[Greenlite]

Grace replied me again, I think she has a crush on me