Zarathos vs The Spirit of Vengeance

[FlameHead]

Okay, I thought it was about time I started a thread to duke it out which was the best of the Ghost Riders. I know I'm almost alone in thinking that the 2nd coming of the story was best but I figure it's just as well to talk about it anyway. The pros, cons and all the like, ya know?

Now, I was going to make the thread Zarathos vs Noble Kale but I didn't want to keep it just at Noble because he's just one in a history of Ghost Riders/Spirits of Vengeance.

This is not a VS thread where they're dukin' it out. This is discussion on the good and bad in both... and there's a poll for your favorite.

 

[Vartha]

I liked both, I always felt that a GR would always appear different with whoever the curse is thrust upon. No matter weather it was a demon or some other form.

Each generation should see a GR, just who will be the chosen one to wear the mantle?

 

[InVictus]

I cannot choose, sorry.
Zarathos posses a great weight, he is like Amon of Devilman, THE demon, he's the original thing behind GR skull on fire, he IS fire. And he's ruthless, unlike too much demons today, he's an antihero.

The Spirit of Vengeange (not Noble Kale, he's only the start of it) represents instead the Rule, he's Karma, he's Retribution, he's something we all feel it should be.
And he's one thing with his purpose, totally focused.

They are too different takes of the GR, almost opposites(malice and duty) both equally great.

 

[FlameHead]

These comments are excellent guys and while it truly is a hard thing to choose I still really love the honor that is present in the Spirit of Vengeance...

Vartha, I really like your idea of them being different depending on the body they are bonded with. That really works.

 

[FlameHead]

Another bump. Tryin' to get some more discussions on the move.

 

[WarBlade]

Definitely Ketch's parasitic alter-ego over Blaze's for me. Initially it was the image that pulled me in: The look, the abilities, the bike. I hate cliches in comicbook characters and anything fresh really has a shot at grabbing my attention and the chain and penance stare managed just that.

The thing that kept me coming back though was the story and character of a kid bonded to a dark, yet honourable parasitic warrior. Where the original had a need to lash out in some semblance of revenge, the second Ghost Rider was a single-minded personification of harsh justice. An eye for an eye.

 

[Uncanny Orb]

Find out here!

 

[FlameHead]

Hey Orb, I read your story but... I fail to see which you enjoy more. I assume it's Zarathos because he was stronger in the end but, you did justice to both.

 

[Riding Ghost]

I am not a fan of the idea of there being more than 1 GR which is why I don't like the SOV angle with vengeance and noble as well as Zarathos and whoever else. I just think he should be unique not one of many, just my personal on that. However, be that as it may, that was great writing and quite reveting and I'll tell you this much, I enjoyed reading that more than the 1st 3 issues of the current mini. I'm hoping they stay away from there being more than one GR and all that, but if they do maintain that line of story, something like what you wrote should happen. With the same outcome, if I might add Also liked the title of your thread

 

[Hellion]

Find out here!

 

[FlameHead]

I am not a fan of the idea of there being more than 1 GR which is why I don't like the SOV angle with vengeance and noble as well as Zarathos and whoever else. I just think he should be unique not one of many, just my personal on that. However, be that as it may, that was great writing and quite reveting and I'll tell you this much, I enjoyed reading that more than the 1st 3 issues of the current mini. I'm hoping they stay away from there being more than one GR and all that, but if they do maintain that line of story, something like what you wrote should happen. With the same outcome, if I might add Also liked the title of your thread

Well, SOV didn't really have many Ghost Rider's... not really. By the time Dan Ketch finds his inner Demon, Blaze is not longer possessed. The SOV title had a normal Blaze without the power to change into Ghost Rider. Only Dan Ketch had that at this time. Now, Blaze did find out that he always had the power of hellfire inside of him and the ability to channel it through weapons and such but, no ability to change into Ghost Rider... into Zarathos. In fact, Zarathos returned to the universe in the 90's as a major baddie for the two brothers.

 

[Riding Ghost]

Actually, despite what I said, I liked the SOV title, in fact better than the vol2 GR title. Just like, despite what I said, I liked Uncannys story.
All the history you spoke of does appear to remain intact as verified by the recent MK Encyclopedia but my guess is that they are going to concentrate on stories surrounding Blaze/Zarathos and only revert back to Noble, Vengeance, Ketch, the Medallion and all that, when they feel they've run out of ideas for Blaze/Zarathos. of course just my guess. Interesting how they never seem to claim they run out of ideas for spiderman and xmen. Anyway, its kind of mixed signals we get, on one hand the last 2 minis and movie are about Blaze, yet they have a new vengeance action figure plans for a newer one and everything may be in the video game. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. My main point is that I'm really not looking forward to when they unveil their "new supernatural power team" --introducing Ketch/Noble - Vengeance- Blaze/Zarathos- and a few other medallion holders for good measure-- Together in the pages of our new hellfire book, or whatever. Some might like the thought of that, I don't, thats all.

 

[WarBlade]

Some might like the thought of that, I don't, thats all.

I had thought of that years ago and I'd be interested in seeing it. The medallion side of the story after Vengeance was added conjured up an image whereby there were supposed to have been four carriers of the medallion. I'd say it's a safe bet that someone was probably going for a four horsemen of the apocalypse idea.

I wonder how it might have worked in practice though: A comicbook following the lives of four loners who only come together in times of dire strife. Marvel has had more than it's fare share of apocalypses, ragnaroks, risings of the midnight sons etc. and the ultimate doom gets pretty old after the first few times.

 

[Uncanny Orb]

Personally I think the whole medallion thing was lame and uneccesary and just another bunch of clutter in the second GR's continuity, thats why Marvel has gone back to Blaze, it's just a clean slate an old slate but a clean one.

 

[FlameHead]

I didn't think the medallion thing was lame but, I do think it was somewhat uneccesary. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge supporter of the blood line, the history and all that Jazz but the confusion that came with the Medallion was not good.

I also think that Vengeance should not have been part of that legacy. Sure, he was a type of Ghost Rider but it was silly to have a random cop who just happens to have a deep hate for Ghost Rider turn out to be a part of the legacy. He could have just been what he was by just being another pour sole tricked by Mephisto.... and still do all the same things he did.

 

[BURNFOREVER]

I didn't think the medallion thing was lame but, I do think it was somewhat uneccesary. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge supporter of the blood line, the history and all that Jazz but the confusion that came with the Medallion was not good.

I also think that Vengeance should not have been part of that legacy. Sure, he was a type of Ghost Rider but it was silly to have a random cop who just happens to have a deep hate for Ghost Rider turn out to be a part of the legacy. He could have just been what he was by just being another pour sole tricked by Mephisto.... and still do all the same things he did.

The Medallion of Power is not lame at all.
No sir.
It´s the ultimate GR symbol, just bad explored.
Right, it was make a huge confusion about the Spirits of Vengeance and all, but it´s not the character or the symbol´s fault.
Let´s put the blame on the writers.
One exemple: if Noble Kale was the original Spirit of Vengeance and inhabit the body of the lineage of his bloodline ( Kales and Blazes ), why Johnny was possessed by Zarathos and not Noble?
Was Johnny Blaze a fake GR, like Vengeance, also created by Mephisto?
We all know that it´s not true, but if we think a little about the question, really cause some confusion.
But i really love the Medallion.
It´s powerfull, beautiful and legendary.
Marvel should explore it more, make it a big and more classic symbol, like the batsignal or the big S.
And once and for all, some great writer like Warren Elis, Kurt Busiek, Mark Waid, Mark Millar, finally create a saga called GR:THE LEGEND or GR:BLOODLINE exploring all the SOV´s legends and cleaning the mess that was the explanations of the 1990´s e giving the Medallion the status the it deserves.
But that´s only my opinion.

 

[Uncanny Orb]

Ya and they should do something really special with it like make it the gas cap on a perfectly good motorcycle thats gets in a junkyard for no apparent reason.

 

[InVictus]

The medallion could have been legendary as the eye of Agamotto, sigh...

 

[FlameHead]

The Medallion of Power is not lame at all.
No sir.
It´s the ultimate GR symbol, just bad explored.
Right, it was make a huge confusion about the Spirits of Vengeance and all, but it´s not the character or the symbol´s fault.
Let´s put the blame on the writers.
One exemple: if Noble Kale was the original Spirit of Vengeance and inhabit the body of the lineage of his bloodline ( Kales and Blazes ), why Johnny was possessed by Zarathos and not Noble?
Was Johnny Blaze a fake GR, like Vengeance, also created by Mephisto?
We all know that it´s not true, but if we think a little about the question, really cause some confusion.
But i really love the Medallion.
It´s powerfull, beautiful and legendary.
Marvel should explore it more, make it a big and more classic symbol, like the batsignal or the big S.
And once and for all, some great writer like Warren Elis, Kurt Busiek, Mark Waid, Mark Millar, finally create a saga called GR:THE LEGEND or GR:BLOODLINE exploring all the SOV´s legends and cleaning the mess that was the explanations of the 1990´s e giving the Medallion the status the it deserves.
But that´s only my opinion.

Very well said Burn. It's refreshing to hear some positive things about the whole medallion thing... and I totally agreed that a new mini should be created exploring it further. I really like that "Ghost Rider: Bloodline" idea and it definatly would be something wonderful to have it happen.

 

[FlameHead]

Polls are fun.

 

[The Geek Vault]

Can someone explain this? I couldn't understand it alot when I read about it?

 

[FlameHead]

A lot of it is talked about in the previous posts but I'll give you a little...

Basically, first of all, there has always been a Ghost Rider and a Ghost Rider is a Spirit of Vengeance. An entity existing for the soul purpose of avenging innocents. This Spirit is unstoppable and will go through anything to satisfy his only desire; vengeance. In the olden days Ghost Rider would ride a horse, being the best form of transportation at the time. It's easy to understand why he now travels by motorcycle as they are similar vehicles, in a way. In fact, in the movie, the bike looks more like a horse skeleton then a bike.

Anyhooe, that's the Sprit of Vengeance.

Zarathos is a little different. You see, in hell or whatever Mephisto calls his realm, there are lots of demons and some of these demons have enough power to be cocky enough to take on Mephisto in his own universe. Zarathos is one of these demons and for eons he has been trying to best Mephisto and of course, he's never succeeded.

Meph, being the ever playing trickster, decided to play a little game with Zarathos and mess with the bloodline of the Spirit of Vengeance at the same time. When Blaze's turn (being next in bloodline) came about to be the next Ghost Rider (SOV) Meph instead bonded the demon Zarathos to Johnny instead of the SOV and in addition, he wiped Zarathos of his memories. This is where Blaze began and the first 'Ghost Rider' (of our time)((besides Naomi)).

Now, because the Spirit of Vengeance alwasy exists, it manifested itself within the next in line who, of course, was Dan Ketch. He possessed the true Spirit of Vengeance who of course was notibly different that the demon Zarathos.

So, that's the difference... in a nut shell. Hope it helps.

 

[BURNFOREVER]

A lot of it is talked about in the previous posts but I'll give you a little...

Basically, first of all, there has always been a Ghost Rider and a Ghost Rider is a Spirit of Vengeance. An entity existing for the soul purpose of avenging innocents. This Spirit is unstoppable and will go through anything to satisfy his only desire; vengeance. In the olden days Ghost Rider would ride a horse, being the best form of transportation at the time. It's easy to understand why he now travels by motorcycle as they are similar vehicles, in a way. In fact, in the movie, the bike looks more like a horse skeleton then a bike.

Anyhooe, that's the Sprit of Vengeance.

Zarathos is a little different. You see, in hell or whatever Mephisto calls his realm, there are lots of demons and some of these demons have enough power to be cocky enough to take on Mephisto in his own universe. Zarathos is one of these demons and for eons he has been trying to best Mephisto and of course, he's never succeeded.

Meph, being the ever playing trickster, decided to play a little game with Zarathos and mess with the bloodline of the Spirit of Vengeance at the same time. When Blaze's turn (being next in bloodline) came about to be the next Ghost Rider (SOV) Meph instead bonded the demon Zarathos to Johnny instead of the SOV and in addition, he wiped Zarathos of his memories. This is where Blaze began and the first 'Ghost Rider' (of our time)((besides Naomi)).

Now, because the Spirit of Vengeance alwasy exists, it manifested itself within the next in line who, of course, was Dan Ketch. He possessed the true Spirit of Vengeance who of course was notibly different that the demon Zarathos.

So, that's the difference... in a nut shell. Hope it helps.

Of course we all know that, my friend FH, but i will try to put one more info on your text: Danny was not the next on line. Barbara was the one, but when she was mortally wounded by a ninja arrow of Deathwatch´s army, Danny "accidentally" became the Spirit of Vengeance, serving well for 8 years and bringing justice to the GR mythology.
Man, i´ll watch X3 next wednesday, and since now i´m praying to watch GR´s trailer on it, like announced. All i´ve saw on my computer´s screen on the big screen? My God...
PS: FH, what´s exectly in the Video Collection ( about 80Mb ) in the awesome MM´s Internapse downloads page? I guess i´ve got all the GR videos, but, we never know...
PS2: Finally you saw the FF animated appearence, i suppose? MM put the entire episode for us to download. Great guy. Left only "Hulk´s Innocent Blood", and you´ll get nuts.
Take care.

 

[FlameHead]

You're absolutly right on the Barbara thing Burn. I left it out rather than explain it though, I probably shouldn't have. It's good that it's pointed out.

The Video collection is a bunch of stuff, mostly from last year. It has the comic con footage, a short ET clip, 2 fan made teaser/trailers, the 2 first clips of Ghost Rider. It also has a commercial for GR toys from the 90's.

I originally created a torrent for these but, I'm not sure if it works or not. I'm going to create another one with all of MM's new additions and the new trailers too. I wanna promote this sucka like there's no tomorrow.

Speaking of which, if the world blows up or WW3 starts before February 16th, I'm going to be one pissed of person.

 

[xwolverine2]

wow.... im GR dumb