Zimmer calls Elfman's theme "JOLLY"

[The Chris]

I completely disagree. Elfman's score has tremendous emotional depth.

Well not for me. There was nothing really in it musically that had dramatic emotion. Adrenaline pumping emotion? Yep. Not dramatic though. Having Prince music in a lot of parts didn't help either. Actually Returns had more of an emotional depth with the score, but the score there at times is too Burton/Elfman. Love those guys, but when I see Batman I'd like the filmmakers to adapt to him, not the other way around.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

When I watched "Batman" for the first time, I didn't know a lot of things about movies and actors. I read comics and watched cartoon, had only seen a few good movies like Terminator and so on. But the marketing hype really got me and when I sat in the cinema and I saw the beginning with the Bat logo and Elfman's theme I was truly blown away. Then when the parents with the child leave the cinema I thought those were the Waynes, of course. But then I saw Batman, how he was gunned down in his rubber suit. Well, it cheapened the movie for me. And when Michael Keaton (didn't know him before) introduced himself I thought "oh no. I wanted Batman and all I got was a balding little guy in a rubber suit."

Bottom line: The theme (all of the music) rules and the movie is good.

 

[Cain]

Well not for me. There was nothing really in it musically that had dramatic emotion. Adrenaline pumping emotion? Yep. Not dramatic though.

Makes me question how long ago if at all you've watched this movie. THe entire score hit all the dramatic cues when neccessary. Watch the scene with Wayne visiting Crime Alley and laying the flowers down and tell me the score in that scene causes adrenaline pumping emotion.

Love those guys, but when I see Batman I'd like the filmmakers to adapt to him, not the other way around.

This I just completely don't understand and makes no sense to me no offense but do elaborate. Cause no Elfman score before his BATMAN score sounded like that nor do Batman comics contain any music so what do you mean by adapt to him? They had to create a sonic identity for the character and the atmosphere in the film and the score delivered that in all aspects. Totally fit and complimented what was on the screen and the main theme itself was associated and defined as just that a theme song which is the purpose with a superhero movie. To the point that millions still consider one of the definitive superhero movie themes along with John Williams Superman theme and an iconic piece of cinematic music hence why it keeps being brought up to this day.

 

[The Chris]

deleted

 

[byte19]

I can only comment on Darkman, but Raimi is very specific on the ques he wants for his films, to the point where he has composers incorporate exact pieces from other movies.

Besides Williams repeats himself too.

What should we compose music for? That's what composers are paid for! Good luck on your next project.

just to see if if those who bash paid composers can do better. and I mean ALL composers. just reading some forum entries on how Iron Man was ridiculously awesome but the music sucked. never really said why other than the tried and true response; Hans phoned in another horrible score. so unimaginative. blah blah... those who like it, like it as good music for that film. and Rami should be ashamed of himself! he drove Danny away from Spidey 3! and shockingly... they like it more than no.1!! ugh!!

thanks by the way on my project! gotta start plugin' it! it's a short called Behind Closed Eyes and you'll find a behind the scenes video here. http://emanatestudio.com/
i'll try to put up a sample of me and my partner's stuff.

 

[raleagh]

just to see if if those who bash paid composers can do better. and I mean ALL composers.

Composers know how a piece of music is constructed. They know what notes and scales evoke what emotions in people. Average Joe (ie. me) doesn't know what those patterns are - but we do know when they have worked - when we feel emotion.

just reading some forum entries on how Iron Man was ridiculously awesome but the music sucked.never really said why other than the tried and true response;

I'm not going to comment much on Iron Man other than the soundtrack had a couple of great moments (that I can still reproduce in my head) that brought me into the movie - but they didn't last long and left me hanging, little wanting more but not getting it.

Hans phoned in another horrible score. so unimaginative. blah blah... those who like it, like it as good music for that film.

It is a good score for that film, it builds throughout.....to hopefully lead to a crescendo in TDK. But it generic and only lifted by Newton Howards work. Zimmer seems to have been taking center stage, when actually Howards work is central to the character and the film (the tragedy of Bruce Wayne being lost to Batman).

and Rami should be ashamed of himself! he drove Danny away from Spidey 3! and shockingly... they like it more than no.1!! ugh!!

Personally I prefer 1 and 2.

thanks by the way on my project! gotta start plugin' it! it's a short called Behind Closed Eyes and you'll find a behind the scenes video here. http://emanatestudio.com/
i'll try to put up a sample of me and my partner's stuff.

What's your involvement in it? Director, composer? It looks interesting - i will be keeping an eye on it.

 

[twilitezoner]

Zimmers score for Begins was one of the most unmemorable scores I've ever heard, and really the weakest part of the whole movie. He has no right to be talking crap about anything Elfman did for the movies.

I didn't think the score was bad per se. It was just missing "it".

 

[CLARKY]

"Everyone keeps saying, 'When are you going to do the jolly 'Batman' theme, a la the Tim Burton movies.' It will never happen. We actually did it, and we threw it out."

"Jolly" ?!? I'm becoming less and less tolerant to the whole Batman begins aficionadosor makers as they contantly try to destroyed or reduce the movies or Tim Burton. It's quite irritating and boring at the end.
I'm pretty sure a legion of BBegins fans will drink Zimmer's speech and take it as God's.
I think the music of Danny Elfam was one of the most powerful elements in the movies. "Why revist the old stuff ?" because it's good. IMO, it is not always necessary to take the same things in a new movie, but I think there are room for transformations. A new franchise could take the Elfman's theme and make it more violent, or more this or that, transform it but keep the whole theme like they do with James Bond so to speak.
Elfman's theme was heroic as hell, and very dark and strong, and it embodies perfectly the character. The cartoon used a similar theme and I think it worked fine, similar but different. I think this is how it should work. BBegins theme was not bad, but it is not as good as Danny Elfman's one.

I didn't think the score was bad per se. It was just missing "it".

agreed.

 

[El Payaso]

"Jolly" ?!? I'm becoming less and less tolerant to the whole Batman begins aficionadosor makers as they contantly try to destroyed or reduce the movies or Tim Burton. It's quite irritating and boring at the end.

Not to mention it does show a lot of insecurity.

Maybe Zimmer should wonder why "everybody" keeps asking him for an Elfman kind of bat-theme.

His score is great. He should't be even refering to Elfman's.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Burton/Elfman. Love those guys, but when I see Batman I'd like the filmmakers to adapt to him, not the other way around.

I'm sorry... but what does that even mean? - Adapt 'him' is exactly what Burton/ Elfman did!. It is completely ridiculous and ignorant to suggest that these two men change their methods of a lifetimes, in order to suit your own tastes.


In terms of the scores:

Batman Begins = bland, boring, yet with a slight hint of promise

Batman '89/Returns = sweeping, epic and perfectly suited for our dark hero. Elfman nailed it 100% and even got better with returns.


Hate to break it to you Zimmer... but Elfman kicked your ass in everyway imaginable.

Even after more than 15 years i can still hum Elfman's various batman music whereas in under 4 years, i can barely remember one note of Zimmer's.

 

[Lazlo Panaflex]

The music to Pirates Of The Caribbean sounds very heroic, bombastic and adventurous making me want to rent the movies, but I don't dig on fairy pirates.

 

[The Chris]

I'm sorry... but what does that even mean? - Adapt 'him' is exactly what Burton/ Elfman did!. It is completely ridiculous and ignorant to suggest that these two men change their methods of a lifetimes, in order to suit your own tastes.


In terms of the scores:

Batman Begins = bland, boring, yet with a slight hint of promise

Batman '89/Returns = sweeping, epic and perfectly suited for our dark hero. Elfman nailed it 100% and even got better with returns.


Hate to break it to you Zimmer... but Elfman kicked your ass in everyway imaginable.

Even after more than 15 years i can still hum Elfman's various batman music whereas in under 4 years, i can barely remember one note of Zimmer's.

Jeez. No need to get kind of hostile. I Just think everything about Begins fits Batman more and helps it become not just a good batman film but a good film period. I look at Batman and Batman Returns as good Tim Burton films and Batman Begins as a good Batman movie, and I'm not gonna apologize for that opinion, and am not gonna dump on anyone that feels the opposite way. I mean I know every filmmaker should put some of themselves into their work (Nolan and Raimi do it too), just thought they did it a little too much at times, kind of like ang lee with his Hulk, but better. I was just thinking that Batman doesn't have the great emotional moments in the music like begins does, and even though Returns has more and better emotional music, it's very eddie scissorhands (at least in certain parts.) Honestly I think Elfman has gotten stronger becasue he isn't just capable of the grand, gothic, big score anymore. He can do more. If there is one thing better about his Spider-Man scores, is that his emotional music is in better service of the characters and what they are feeling. The music tells me more and makes me feel more. No denying that elfman rocked it with the big sweeping score. Just saying that Begins' score just had more dimensions. It can be exciting and big in one way like molossus, then exciting and big in a totally different way like the training montage, then be totally different and moving like in the crime alley all the way to the funeral. Like I said, big Burton fan, love his stuff, love elfman's stuff. Plus I really don't think Zimmer was trying to insult elfman's stuff, in fact I thought he meant that people were telling him it was "the jolly batman theme"

 

[byte19]

What's your involvement in it? Director, composer? It looks interesting - i will be keeping an eye on it.

Co-Composer. It's a 10 min. movie so it's a bit sparce. and i was just told we can't release any material until august! i'll try to still keep you posted though!

 

[byte19]

The music to Pirates Of The Caribbean sounds very heroic, bombastic and adventurous making me want to rent the movies, but I don't dig on fairy pirates.

no thats the porn movie Pirates

 

[BlueLightning]

Jeez. No need to get kind of hostile. I Just think everything about Begins fits Batman more and helps it become not just a good batman film but a good film period. I look at Batman and Batman Returns as good Tim Burton films and Batman Begins as a good Batman movie, and I'm not gonna apologize for that opinion, and am not gonna dump on anyone that feels the opposite way. I mean I know every filmmaker should put some of themselves into their work (Nolan and Raimi do it too), just thought they did it a little too much at times, kind of like ang lee with his Hulk, but better. I was just thinking that Batman doesn't have the great emotional moments in the music like begins does, and even though Returns has more and better emotional music, it's very eddie scissorhands (at least in certain parts.) Honestly I think Elfman has gotten stronger becasue he isn't just capable of the grand, gothic, big score anymore. He can do more. If there is one thing better about his Spider-Man scores, is that his emotional music is in better service of the characters and what they are feeling. The music tells me more and makes me feel more. No denying that elfman rocked it with the big sweeping score. Just saying that Begins' score just had more dimensions. It can be exciting and big in one way like molossus, then exciting and big in a totally different way like the training montage, then be totally different and moving like in the crime alley all the way to the funeral. Like I said, big Burton fan, love his stuff, love elfman's stuff. Plus I really don't think Zimmer was trying to insult elfman's stuff, in fact I thought he meant that people were telling him it was "the jolly batman theme"

Bravo
I believe that was the fans who implied that Elfmans theme was Jolly, not Zimmer. Also I don´t think that someone who has a lot of awards and nominations is "insecure". Please

 

[lemmasaurus]

no thats the porn movie Pirates

Dream job: composer for high-budget porn. Though... I can't say that I really noticed the music in Pirates.

As for the argument in this thread, everyone seems to be missing the point that Zimmer was responding to a fan calling Elfman's theme "jolly."
They are both very talented composers in their own right, but Elfman is just suited better to the over-the-top style of Burton's film, especially since it was alongside the godawful Prince tracks. Zimmer's music is better for the epic type of films that BB and PotC are.

Though I am a big Danny Elfman fan. Too bad he's a scieno.

 

[aturner]

So he chose instead to do a theme that combined The Rock and Pirates of the Caribbean.

While there are similarities, they're not the same or even close to it. All composers have a sound that is "theirs". One that springs to mind is John Williams, whose iconic work on Star Wars, Superman and Indiana Jones I enjoy a lot, but often find myself hearing a lot of similarities in instrumentation, arrangement and motif. I enjoy all his scores, but find his work to be derivative at times.

Zimmer on the other hand does do what I describe as the "Bruckheimer" sound and Batman Begins does have elements of it. That is an aspect that I don't think fits as well as it should. However, for me Newton Howard's additions are great as usual. I would be very interested to hear his version of a Batman theme if his idea of a superhero theme is anything like what shows up in M. Night's "Unbreakable". It's only short anf referenced a few times, but is extremely appropriate and celebratory of that superhero aspect without being over the top and in your face like some are. I like the fact that BB's score doesn't have to scream at me "here comes the superhero!!!!". Fingers crossed TDK will bring us a more fully realised theme for this series of films and that Newton Howard can show his talent with Dent etc.

I am thankful that we didn't get James Horner though, as his scores are often at best derivative, and at worst plagiarising his own work (see Star Trek II and Aliens for some blatant rip-offs).

For the record, Klaus Badelt did the Pirates of the Caribbean score,. Both Badelt and Zimmer have similar sounds at times due to Zimmer "discovering" Badelt and the two collaborating on occasion.

 

[mongoose-mania]

Dream job: composer for high-budget porn. Though... I can't say that I really noticed the music in Pirates.

As for the argument in this thread, everyone seems to be missing the point that Zimmer was responding to a fan calling Elfman's theme "jolly."
They are both very talented composers in their own right, but Elfman is just suited better to the over-the-top style of Burton's film, especially since it was alongside the godawful Prince tracks. Zimmer's music is better for the epic type of films that BB and PotC are.

Though I am a big Danny Elfman fan. Too bad he's a scieno.

A what?

 

[Milu]

Danny Elfman is a scientologist? I thought it was just Jenna, who Danny is "uncle-in-law" of?

 

[mongoose-mania]

I know for a fact Elfman's not a scientologist. He's agnostic. Anyhow, back on topic...

 

[byte19]

While there are similarities, they're not the same or even close to it. All composers have a sound that is "theirs". One that springs to mind is John Williams, whose iconic work on Star Wars, Superman and Indiana Jones I enjoy a lot, but often find myself hearing a lot of similarities in instrumentation, arrangement and motif. I enjoy all his scores, but find his work to be derivative at times.

Zimmer on the other hand does do what I describe as the "Bruckheimer" sound and Batman Begins does have elements of it. That is an aspect that I don't think fits as well as it should. However, for me Newton Howard's additions are great as usual. I would be very interested to hear his version of a Batman theme if his idea of a superhero theme is anything like what shows up in M. Night's "Unbreakable". It's only short anf referenced a few times, but is extremely appropriate and celebratory of that superhero aspect without being over the top and in your face like some are. I like the fact that BB's score doesn't have to scream at me "here comes the superhero!!!!". Fingers crossed TDK will bring us a more fully realised theme for this series of films and that Newton Howard can show his talent with Dent etc.

I am thankful that we didn't get James Horner though, as his scores are often at best derivative, and at worst plagiarising his own work (see Star Trek II and Aliens for some blatant rip-offs).

For the record, Klaus Badelt did the Pirates of the Caribbean score,. Both Badelt and Zimmer have similar sounds at times due to Zimmer "discovering" Badelt and the two collaborating on occasion.

aha!!!! yes Klaus scored the first POTC, but composed it through Hans' themes. both confirmed this, Hans had the themes ready, but was working on other projects, like The Ring Tears of the Sun and Last Samurai (all great scores) thats why he created Remote Control and Media Ventures production houses. he may have a unique sound, but it's only now being called Bruckheimer Sound, he and his crew are loud only cause the director wanted it loud.

Backdraft has always been my favorite score as it is the first score i even cared about. it's the first score i bought, and collected scores ever since.

just go here... http://www.soundtrackcollector.com/personal/printcollection.php?show=c

 

[aturner]

^ Yeah I know Hans was involved via his Media Ventures group, but from what I've read he hadn't written too much due to his other schedule and only reluctantly signed on to help at Bruckheimer's request after Alan Silvestri was given the boot. From what I remember Badelt was then given the task of piecing some ideas of Zimmers together with his own in a very short space of time and had the assistance of a whole number of co-composers from Media Ventures. Officially though, Zimmer isn't on that list from memory.

Totally agree about Backdraft. A very good score and a good example of what Zimmer can pull out. I actually think tracks like Burn it All and You Go, We Go would for the most part fit very well with Nolan's Batverse.

 

[El Payaso]

Of course Zimmer's score fits Nolan bat-universe well. Same for Elfman's score for Burton movies. It would be stupid from Elfman to call Zimmer's score names. And vice versa too.

 

[byte19]

and let's be realistic for a sec. had it not been for famed conductor and composer. the late, great Shirley Walker, they wouldn't have even met!! for all we know... the cathedral organs in BR, could've been played by Hans!! just go back to the 80's and 90' of all three composers!

 

[imnotbatman]

Zimmers score for Begins was one of the most unmemorable scores I've ever heard, and really the weakest part of the whole movie. He has no right to be talking crap about anything Elfman did for the movies.

totally agree. i can see where the B89 theme at times had a kind of darkly jolly sound to it, but in Batman Returns he really went dark with the music, and the batman theme was more deadly and serious that time around. but lets face it got the blood pumping and made you really excited. i think they are putting way too much thought into the batman movies, now they've gotten to the point where batman doesnt even have a theme and they are calling it "art". huh? to me thats just sad, cuz i love when superheroes have themes, its fun and exciting. and danny elfmans scores are obviously *still* considered the best. why else would ppl keep asking zimmer to bring back the elfman theme? theres a reason for that.