The FairTax Thread: Discussion Only

[Handsome Rob]

Most economits believe this will hurt the middle and lower classes and help the rich. No matter what anybody says about it here, at the end of the day economists are still saying it will hurt the middle and lower classes.

that is all I need to know.

Do you have a source for citing "most economists," or is that your opinion?

 

[A&W]

Do you have a source for citing "most economists," or is that your opinion?

no it is not my opinion. I don't feel like digging it up but when Huckabee proposed it, it got torn to pieces by economists. I'm sure everybody here who paid attention at the time is aware of this.

I see no point in digging for hours and hours through the archives of MSN's database. Most of the people who support it don't believe in looking at things like the economy scientifically anyways so why would they listen to economists? They are nothing more than scientists who study the economy. Just like global warming, homo sexuality, evolution, economics is another science that conservatives just ignore or pretend it's a big conspiracy.

 

[A&W]

what I heard most economists say is that the poor and the middle class will be hurt. according to factcheck.org the middle class will be hurt and the wealthy will benefit.

http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

 

[A&W]

Care to elaborate, because at this point the counter point to yours has wiped the floor.....

I'm not sure, but I think it has something do with the following.

say your rich and you make 10 million this year, but you only spend one million of it. the rest you keep in the bank or stocks or whatever. that rich person would have paid taxes on all 10 million under the current system, but under the fair tax plan they only pay taxes on the 1 million they spend. where as middle and lower class would be paying taxes on everything they make, because we can't afford to just sit on our money.

and since the rich guy got out of paying taxes on the other 9 million, the government is going to have to find it somewhere, either by raising the sales tax, or depriving us of services like food stamps, housing assistance, medicare ..ect..

I'm not sure if that's the mechanisms behind how this would grow the gap, but economists do say the gap would grow.

 

[SuBe]

what I heard most economists say is that the poor and the middle class will be hurt. according to factcheck.org the middle class will be hurt and the wealthy will benefit.

http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html

FairTax.org's rebuttal to your post from Factcheck.

http://www.fairtax.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8249

 

[SuBe]

I'm not sure, but I think it has something do with the following.

say your rich and you make 10 million this year, but you only spend one million of it. the rest you keep in the bank or stocks or whatever. that rich person would have paid taxes on all 10 million under the current system, but under the fair tax plan they only pay taxes on the 1 million they spend. where as middle and lower class would be paying taxes on everything they make, because we can't afford to just sit on our money.

and since the rich guy got out of paying taxes on the other 9 million, the government is going to have to find it somewhere, either by raising the sales tax, or depriving us of services like food stamps, housing assistance, medicare ..ect..

I'm not sure if that's the mechanisms behind how this would grow the gap, but economists do say the gap would grow.

That's not true, the Prebate would cover all Tax Liability up to the Poverty Level. The "Rich" guy pays taxes on all he spends over the Poverty Level, and the Middle Class guy, also pays over when he spends over the Poverty Level. Since more of the spending would be closer to the Poverty Level for the Middle Class guy, he is paying at a lower Rate than the Rich Guy.

Lets say the Rich Guy spends $1 Million. The Middle Class Guy spends $25,000. The Poverty Level Tax Liability is $10,500. The Rich Guy pays $219,500 in Taxes for the year while the Middle Class Guy spend a NEGATIVE $92. That is, he actually makes BACK $92. Wow, looks like he was really screwed on that one, huh?

 

[SuBe]

no it is not my opinion. I don't feel like digging it up but when Huckabee proposed it, it got torn to pieces by economists. I'm sure everybody here who paid attention at the time is aware of this.

I see no point in digging for hours and hours through the archives of MSN's database. Most of the people who support it don't believe in looking at things like the economy scientifically anyways so why would they listen to economists? They are nothing more than scientists who study the economy. Just like global warming, homo sexuality, evolution, economics is another science that conservatives just ignore or pretend it's a big conspiracy.

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_research

Here is a Link to all of the studies from REAL Economists about the FairTax. Where is your links again?

 

[Malice]

How goes the fight SuBe?

 

[SuBe]

Where the **** you been brother? I haven't seen or heard from you in months.

It goes good. We have been having our meetings, just doubled our numbers last week. Educating the peoples of SW Florida about the FairTax. You?

 

[Malice]

Where the **** you been brother? I haven't seen or heard from you in months.

It goes good. We have been having our meetings, just doubled our numbers last week. Educating the peoples of SW Florida about the FairTax. You?

Busy busy...basically a new job...

 

[SuBe]

Michael Reagan Becomes Honorary Chairman of the FairTax National Victory Campaign

For Immediate Release: January 15, 2010

Michael Reagan, the eldest son of President Ronald Reagan, has been named the Honorary Chairman of the National FairTax Victory campaign according to officials at FairTax.org.

"This is a natural step considering how strongly Michael has worked to keep alive the legacy and meaning of Ronald Reagan’s work and influence on public policy," said Ken Hoagland of the FairTax National Victory Campaign.

"My father understood that the income tax system works against the nation’s best interests and primarily benefits the political class," said Mr. Reagan. "I am convinced that had it existed in his time, my father would have been a strong proponent of the FairTax."

"This new year of 2010 is the 30th Anniversary of my father’s successful campaign to replace Jimmy Carter as President. Then, as now, the nation was mired in a deep economic recession, our nation was viewed as in decline domestically and internationally, and the American people were looking for real, positive and substantive change in the direction of our country. My father, Ronald Reagan, offered and went on to provide just that, real and positive change for the United States. The FairTax will provide the same kind of free enterprise driven economic growth, simplified tax system, reduced taxes to honest Americans, millions of new jobs and a realistic way of dealing with the massive and rapidly growing deficit."

Reagan noted that there have been tens of thousands of changes to the tax code since his father lead the charge for tax reductions and a simplified system. “The special interest lobbyist-driven changes that have undermined his work to simplify the tax code prove that it is a beast that cannot be tamed-- only replaced,” said Reagan. "I remember my father saying, ‘Extreme taxation, excessive controls, oppressive government competition with business, frustrated minorities and forgotten Americans are not the products of free enterprise. They are the residue of centralized bureaucracy, of government by the self-anointed elite.’ It is clear to me that if the FairTax existed then, he would have been a FairTax champion."

"This will remain a non-partisan national movement to win enactment of a far better national tax system," said Reagan. “Like my father, the FairTax campaign has long said that such big changes must be driven by Americans across the political spectrum,” he said. “I join many Democrats as well as Republicans and independents who believe the FairTax will cure a host of national problems and lead to a new era of robust economic growth".

Reagan pointed out that the FairTax will attract trillions of dollars of foreign investment into the U.S. economy and bring back trillions more in American investments currently in offshore accounts and investments, expand the national tax base dramatically to include taxation of those who illegally avoid taxation or benefit from special tax breaks to the politically powerful, and lift the weight of federal taxes and payroll deductions entirely from millions of poor and elderly. "It is the shortest path to full economic recovery and millions of new jobs, ending Congressional corruption of the tax code and providing significant tax relief to the middle class", he said. "The FairTax ends the special benefits enjoyed by the political class which has so badly hurt our economy."

National FairTax Victory Campaign official Ken Hoagland said that Mr. Reagan will lead a revitalized national effort to bring the FairTax into every American household and to Congress. "We have started with a petition to the House Ways and Means Committee to hold a fair and balanced hearing about pending FairTax legislation that now has 65 co-sponsors in the Senate and House of Representatives."

 

[El_Citrus]

65 co-sponsers so far? That's more than I thought. I hope that Reagan can convince others to actually listen to the arguement, or at least, listen to the money that this system hypothetically will bring to this country. I have a feeling though that plenty won't want to listen to it because of what it would mean for their campaigning strategy and their power.

 

[SuBe]

It's Time for a Second Tax Revolt
by Ken Hoagland

More than 200 years ago a new idea about the rights of individuals and the rights of government began as a tax protest in Boston Harbor. “No taxation without representation” was the rallying cry that led to the new concept that all government power and authority should derive from the consent of those governed. Is a second American tax revolt now needed to restore that noble but increasingly tattered idea?

Somehow, these many years later a new American aristocracy is taxing generations of future citizens, not even yet born, in order to secure mind-numbing levels of national debt today. With government debt now totaling more than $500,000 per household, the voice and best interests of the average American seem lost. We have taken a destructive national path of spending beyond our means that ******s job creation, shreds responsible fiscal policy and undermines the pursuit of happiness itself.

The foundation for the second American tax revolt might very well be found in HR25, the long-pending FairTax legislation that most in Washington love to hate. The FairTax replaces all federal taxes on income with a simple and transparent tax on personal retail consumption. It raises the same amount of revenues now raised but in a way that helps the economy rather than hurting it and, most importantly, doing so in a manner that restores the role of the American citizen. In one stroke the earnings of American citizens are again defined as belonging, first, to the citizen, not to the federal government. No single piece of legislation in the history of the nation would do more to shift power from our government back to the individual citizen.

Today our federal taxes are hidden from plain sight through withheld payroll taxes and by embedding and hiding tax costs in the price of American goods and services. The relationship between personal wealth and the cost of government has been effectively hidden, making almost impossible any real check and balance on government spending and self-defeating debt. For candidates from both parties, the promise of new spending buys elections and to many citizens it is “free money" instead of "our money" that is being thrown around like Monopoly paper. The FairTax ends this destructive sleight-of-hand and establishes that the fruits of our labors belong first to us with taxes paid out of the entirety of what we take home in our paychecks.


But the most important virtue of the FairTax is how it makes the cost of the federal government both visible and obviously connected to personal wealth. The price tag for federal spending appears on every sales receipt of new goods purchased. By eliminating all federal withholding and payroll taxes, the FairTax brings federal taxation into the open so that every consumer can first see and then fairly debate the cost/benefit of devoting so much personal wealth to so much government spending. It is a desperately needed awareness if we are to control our government.

The FairTax doesn't pit the poor against the rich or Wall Street against Main Street. While every economic level benefits under the FairTax, the poor and middle class see the greatest immediate tax benefits. If there are losers it is congressional committees who can no longer sell off pieces of the tax code, illegal immigrants and those in the $1.5 trillion a year underground economy who become taxpayers as consumers, and foreign producers who now enjoy a tax advantage over American manufacturers.

The FairTax shifts national taxation away from what makes the economy stronger — work, savings and investment — to what comes out of the economy — consumption. It dramatically expands the tax base so that nearly every American sees a tax reduction. The average tax bill (adding together Social Security/Medicare and income taxes) now amounts to more than 30 percent of everything earned. The FairTax caps taxation at no more than 23 percent of what is spent. In essence, those who spend more, pay higher taxes without exceptions granted by Congress to the favored few who can afford to employ powerful tax lobbyists. Bringing home paychecks without federal withholding and payroll taxes first deducted also creates a permanent stimulus of the economy and shifts taxation decisions to individuals through their consumption choices.

The FairTax protects the poor and middle-class in several ways. First, a monthly “prebate” paid to every American family reimburses the FairTax paid on retail spending up to the poverty level--wiping out federal taxes on the poor including the highly regressive FICA payroll tax. For a middle-class family of four, the prebate allows more than $28,000 of federal tax free spending a year on top of an overall tax reduction. This prebate slams the door shut on the $1.5 billion a year tax lobby industry and eliminates Congress ability to sell tax breaks, complicate the tax code and play mischief with our economy. Advanced economic modeling shows that the poor and middle class are the biggest beneficiaries of the FairTax in terms of tax reductions.

At the same time, shifting away from taxing labor, manufacturing, investment and upward mobility itself will make the United States the most favorable tax environment in the world. This will bring trillions of dollars of private investment, now offshore, into our economy. Without borrowing against the future earnings of our offspring (another case of taxation without representation), these private investments create jobs, better benefits and a new era of economic growth where productive American workers are again in high demand. In addition to attracting huge investments to our economy, the FairTax eliminates the built in tax disadvantage now suffered by American producers that is helping kill off the "Made in America" label. The FairTax is fair, simple and transparent unlike the 67,500 pages of income tax regulations that require more than $300 billion a year in tax preparation costs.

The income tax system is very good for Washington and very bad for the rest of us. Because the FairTax ends the "royal treatment" of those who sell tax breaks from Congressional committees, exposes the cost of the federal government and ends the lucrative tax lobby business in Washington, D.C. it will take another tax revolt to trump the narrow self-interests of Washington insiders. That work has begun. The good and bad news is that a relative few but politically powerful and influential Americans profit richly from the corrupted tax system. With all their profits and power, can they be bested by hometown Americans across the political spectrum? Only if we remember that the first American tax revolt won us the right to do it again.

 

[El_Citrus]

I wonder if some politicians are supporting this just for the extra votes. "Look, this guy wants to put the power in OUR hands. Let's vote for him", while said politician knows that the movement most likely won't get through Congress.

I WANT the Fairtax, but it seems like too much of a power swing that ANY politician would want to give up.

 

[BlackLantern]

I wonder if some politicians are supporting this just for the extra votes. "Look, this guy wants to put the power in OUR hands. Let's vote for him", while said politician knows that the movement most likely won't get through Congress.

I WANT the Fairtax, but it seems like too much of a power swing that ANY politician would want to give up.

that's how I see it...my question is how does this affect owning property?? be it residential or commercial

 

[SuBe]

Join the Online Tax Revolt!

http://www.onlinetaxrevolt.com/join/

 

[SuBe]

that's how I see it...my question is how does this affect owning property?? be it residential or commercial

It doesn't affect owning property at all. Except, it will make it more affordable for everyone as you would receive 100% of your Paycheck, making it easier to pay down the mortgage.

 

[BlackLantern]

I mean if I wanted to buy/lease a building to start a business

 

[SuBe]

No taxes would be paid on Business Purchases.

 

[BlackLantern]

well the bank will probably **** me on interest rates anyway so what I dont have to pay in taxes, Ill have to pay in interest

 

[SuBe]

well the bank will probably **** me on interest rates anyway so what I dont have to pay in taxes, Ill have to pay in interest

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_research_realestate

At that link, you can look through the studies. The FairTax is expected to lower interest rates.

 

[BlackLantern]

I don't think it will, logically it should and in a perfect world if people that ran banks weren't greedy ****es that might be the case but much like the whole credit card thing, there are always loopholes and workarounds

the 10 things that Congress wanted to stop credit card companies from doing, they've already found ways around it

 

[SuBe]

Did you read through any of the links to the different studies?

 

[CorpusBlack]

I don't think it will, logically it should and in a perfect world if people that ran banks weren't greedy ****es that might be the case but much like the whole credit card thing, there are always loopholes and workarounds

the 10 things that Congress wanted to stop credit card companies from doing, they've already found ways around it

Yes, there are loopholes and plenty of them when you have thousand and thousands of pages in a single bill. The FairTax system is pretty concise and miniscule in comparison to the current tax system or any other proposed system out there as a fix to what we currently have. There will always be someone who figures out a loophole but with everyone paying into this based off of consumption, avoiding it is pretty much impossible. Also, with the elimination of lobbyists, the days of scratch my back I'll scratch yours crony capitalism are over.

 

[SuBe]

A couple of weeks ago when Congress reconvened, it The FairTax Act (HR 25) was introduced with the most Co-Sponsers in it's 12 year history. We are at 55 Co-Sponsers.