A couple of questions about Batman Returns...

[Max Eckhardt]

So as the movie ends, with Alfred driving Bruce home in the Rolls-Royce Silver Wraith, does this scene take place directly after Batman's escapades in the sewer or some days later? Does Bruce have the Batsuit on under that coat?
I ask this because i had always assumed that the final scene took place some days later but in the novelisation, which I recently read, it implies that Alfred had picked him up directly.
The book also says that the authorities now realise that Batman is innocent of all charges and that his name has been cleared. The novelisation attempts to wrap up the plot two neat and tidy for my liking.
So ignoring the book, and going just by what we see on screen, when do you think the final scene takes place?

Secondly, how close to Christmas are we at that point in the movie?

And finally, what do you think Batman's true standing is with the authorities at the movie's conclusion? Is he still wanted by the police, how much does Commissioner Gordon and the Mayor know about what truly went on?

 

[Awest66]

And finally, what do you think Batman's true standing is with the authorities at the movie's conclusion? Is he still wanted by the police, how much does Commissioner Gordon and the Mayor know about what truly went on?

Don't think that's a question the movie ever bothered to actually answer

 

[Max Eckhardt]

Don't think that's a question the movie ever bothered to actually answer

Which is why I'm asking.

It's like how TDK never bothered to explain how the Scarecrow regained his sanity or how the narrows were pacified. O the number discrepancy with Dent's victims etc... these things are fun to speculate about. Or at least they are to me.

Personally, I think the mayor, DA, and Gordon would have been hunting Batman from in the next film, if the next film had been a true sequel.

 

[Batmannerism]

So as the movie ends, with Alfred driving Bruce home in the Rolls-Royce Silver Wraith, does this scene take place directly after Batman's escapades in the sewer or some days later? Does Bruce have the Batsuit on under that coat?
I ask this because i had always assumed that the final scene took place some days later but in the novelisation, which I recently read, it implies that Alfred had picked him up directly.
The book also says that the authorities now realise that Batman is innocent of all charges and that his name has been cleared. The novelisation attempts to wrap up the plot two neat and tidy for my liking.
So ignoring the book, and going just by what we see on screen, when do you think the final scene takes place?

Secondly, how close to Christmas are we at that point in the movie?

And finally, what do you think Batman's true standing is with the authorities at the movie's conclusion? Is he still wanted by the police, how much does Commissioner Gordon and the Mayor know about what truly went on?

Dude, tbh I feel like that continuity wasn't such a big deal back then......so why worry about it ? Mostly because a sequel wasn't a foregone conclusion, and nobody really knew if there would be another Bat movie.

Personally, I feel like BR ended on a nice note - probably a few days after the final action scene, things in Gotham having returned to normal.....and someone had cleaned up all the bits of exploded Penguin.

Cheers.

 

[The Joker]

Dude, tbh I feel like that continuity wasn't such a big deal back then......so why worry about it ?

Exactly. I mean Returns couldn't even keep the continuity of the design of the Wayne Manor and the Batcave from B'89.

 

[JohnnyGobbs]

So as the movie ends, with Alfred driving Bruce home in the Rolls-Royce Silver Wraith, does this scene take place directly after Batman's escapades in the sewer or some days later? Does Bruce have the Batsuit on under that coat?
I ask this because i had always assumed that the final scene took place some days later but in the novelisation, which I recently read, it implies that Alfred had picked him up directly.
The book also says that the authorities now realise that Batman is innocent of all charges and that his name has been cleared. The novelisation attempts to wrap up the plot two neat and tidy for my liking.
So ignoring the book, and going just by what we see on screen, when do you think the final scene takes place?

Secondly, how close to Christmas are we at that point in the movie?

And finally, what do you think Batman's true standing is with the authorities at the movie's conclusion? Is he still wanted by the police, how much does Commissioner Gordon and the Mayor know about what truly went on?

Great questions Max. Anything to keep alive discussion concerning this wonderful film is great by me.

I think the following movie prop might shed some light on the approximate timeline of the movie:

http://www.screenused.com/index.cfm?item_id=20267

If you check out the item, a 'Maxquerade invitation' used in the film, you'll see that the date given for the event is 'Saturday December Twenty-First' (incidentally, December Twenty-First fell on a Saturday in 1991, the year the film started filming, so it's probably safe to assume that the film takes place in 1991, albeit a fantastical version of 1991). If the Maxquerade Ball took place on the evening of December Twenty-First one can probably assume that Batman's rescue of the first-born children kidnapped by The Red Triangle Circus Gang, as well his successful foiling of The Penguin's plan to launch penguin-operated rockets at Gotham, and Max's death as well as Catwoman's presumed death, take place on the evening of Twenty-First/early morning of Twenty-Second.

Since Alfred wishes Bruce a 'Merry Christmas' at the end of the film, it's also probably safe to assume that the very final scene, in which we see a shot of Catwoman (added at the final minute) in an apparently re-sewn costume, takes place late on Christmas Eve (i.e. a couple of days later).

It's also highly possible that by that stage Batman's name has been cleared. If the police rounded up the Red Triangle Circus Gang foiled by Batman, it wouldn't be very hard to exonerate Batman's name in both the kidnapping of the Ice Princess and the Batmobile's wild joyride through Gotham, especially if the Poodle Lady, who was present at the kidnapping, was finally apprehended. But the two day gap between Batman defeating The Penguin and the Batsignal finally reappearing in the sky, might be explained by the number of hours required to elicit confessions from those gang members.

I do like your idea that come the sequel, Commissioner Gordon and the Mayor would still be actively trying to apprehend Batman for the Princess's death, but even if Burton had done a follow-up it's highly likely that he wouldn't have made any explicit references to Batman Returns; so it's probably better that things were, implicitly, wrapped-up by the end of Returns with the Batsignal shining above Gotham's skies and implying that Batman had now been exonerated, or was, at the very least, working with the authorities to clear his name.

PS: Keep thinking about the future.

 

[Max Eckhardt]

Great questions Max. Anything to keep alive discussion concerning this wonderful film is great by me.

I think the following movie prop might shed some light on the approximate timeline of the movie:

http://www.screenused.com/index.cfm?item_id=20267

If you check out the item, a 'Maxquerade invitation' used in the film, you'll see that the date given for the event is 'Saturday December Twenty-First' (incidentally, December Twenty-First fell on a Saturday in 1991, the year the film started filming, so it's probably safe to assume that the film takes place in 1991, albeit a fantastical version of 1991). If the Maxquerade Ball took place on the evening of December Twenty-First one can probably assume that Batman's rescue of the first-born children kidnapped by The Red Triangle Circus Gang, as well his successful foiling of The Penguin's plan to launch penguin-operated rockets at Gotham, and Max's death as well as Catwoman's presumed death, take place on the evening of Twenty-First/early morning of Twenty-Second.

Since Alfred wishes Bruce a 'Merry Christmas' at the end of the film, it's also probably safe to assume that the very final scene, in which we see a shot of Catwoman (added at the final minute) in an apparently re-sewn costume, takes place late on Christmas Eve (i.e. a couple of days later).

It's also highly possible that by that stage Batman's name has been cleared. If the police rounded up the Red Triangle Circus Gang foiled by Batman, it wouldn't be very hard to exonerate Batman's name in both the kidnapping of the Ice Princess and the Batmobile's wild joyride through Gotham, especially if the Poodle Lady, who was present at the kidnapping, was finally apprehended. But the two day gap between Batman defeating The Penguin and the Batsignal finally reappearing in the sky, might be explained by the number of hours required to elicit confessions from those gang members.

I do like your idea that come the sequel, Commissioner Gordon and the Mayor would still be actively trying to apprehend Batman for the Princess's death, but even if Burton had done a follow-up it's highly likely that he wouldn't have made any explicit references to Batman Returns; so it's probably better that things were, implicitly, wrapped-up by the end of Returns with the Batsignal shining above Gotham's skies and implying that Batman had now been exonerated, or was, at the very least, working with the authorities to clear his name.

PS: Keep thinking about the future.

Great post!

I think if Tim Burton had returned to direct a third Batman film, it, like Batman Returns, wouldn't have been considered a sequel in his eyes and therefore would barely address the plot of the second movie.

Although, Batman Returns did make several references to the original movie and I have heard that Batman 3 would have included Billy-Dee as Harvey Dent and that Tim was exploring the possibility of directing a spin-off Catwoman movie with Michelle Pfeiffer...

I don't know why, but ever since I first saw Batman Returns I had always assumed that the Batsignal going up at the end of the movie was a trap set by the Mayor of Gotham City for Batman. I imagined him pressuring Commissioner Gordon to light the signal and have his men lying in ambush. I know the signal was intended as nothing more than a rousing visual flourish, but in the context of the movie's plot why else would the city need Batman so soon again?

Perhaps as you say, the Red Triangle Circus Gang were still causing trouble...

 

[JohnnyGobbs]

Great post!

I think if Tim Burton had returned to direct a third Batman film, it, like Batman Returns, wouldn't have been considered a sequel in his eyes and therefore would barely address the plot of the second movie.

Although, Batman Returns did make several references to the original movie and I have heard that Batman 3 would have included Billy-Dee as Harvey Dent and that Tim was exploring the possibility of directing a spin-off Catwoman movie with Michelle Pfeiffer...

I don't know why, but ever since I first saw Batman Returns I had always assumed that the Batsignal going up at the end of the movie was a trap set by the Mayor of Gotham City for Batman. I imagined him pressuring Commissioner Gordon to light the signal and have his men lying in ambush. I know the signal was intended as nothing more than a rousing visual flourish, but in the context of the movie's plot why else would the city need Batman so soon again?

Perhaps as you say, the Red Triangle Circus Gang were still causing trouble...

Batman would be too smart to fall for am ambush, and I suspect Commissioner Gordon would know that, although perhaps the Mayor wasn't as clued-up and, as you say, felt pressure to use the Bat-signal to capture Batman in view of the crimes he had been connected with.

I suspect that even though The Penguin and Max Shreck had been defeated, the incumbent mayor's job was still on the line following the Ice Princess's kidnap/death and the chaos that ensued.

Nevertheless, assuming we don't just write-off the Batsignal as merely a visual flourish to end the movie with, I suspect Gordon was calling in Batman to help the police with their enquiries concerning the Red Triangle Circus Gang. I doubt that, save for a few stragglers, they were on the loose anymore, but the police might still have needed Batman to clear up a few issues and corroborate any confessions elicited from the gang during interrogation.

As for Catwoman emerging at the end, I think she may have had some mixed-feelings about seeing the Batsignal. On one hand, she'd have been thankful that Batman had now been cleared of any wrongdoing she and The Penguin had framed him for (now that she know that Batman is Bruce Wayne and not such a bad guy after all), but she may also consider that it was time to get out of the city if Batman was now in the clear, since that might mean she had now been compromised with respect to her part in the previous few days' wrongdoing.

 

[GBazz]

Considering that Batman Forever is a direct sequel, then it seems like his relationship with the GCPD was restored. Bruce still has the scratch on his face when he's in the car so I can only assume it was the same night. Especially since his Bat-Ski boat was out of commission after his encounter with the Penguin.
Btw have you seen Edward Scissorhands? The Penguin seems to have the same story arc. Aside from wanting to destroy Gotham with penguins lol!

 

[Max Eckhardt]

Considering that Batman Forever is a direct sequel, then it seems like his relationship with the GCPD was restored. Bruce still has the scratch on his face when he's in the car so I can only assume it was the same night. Especially since his Bat-Ski boat was out of commission after his encounter with the Penguin.
Btw have you seen Edward Scissorhands? The Penguin seems to have the same story arc. Aside from wanting to destroy Gotham with penguins lol!

I know Warner Bros. consider the first four movies to be part of the same cinematic universe but I never have.

Tim Burton never considered Batman Returns to be a real sequel to Batman. The scripts of the four films are clearly written as existing in the same continuity but the visuals have always said otherwise. Wayne manor changes appearance and location in every movie, as does the Batcave and Gotham City itself; all of them change wildly across three of the films - it's hard to consider the first three films except on their own terms. I do think that Batman & Robin is a true sequel to Batman Forever however. The city remains the same, and the plot from Batman Forever allows for the change of the Batcave.

 

[Max Eckhardt]

Batman would be too smart to fall for am ambush, and I suspect Commissioner Gordon would know that, although perhaps the Mayor wasn't as clued-up and, as you say, felt pressure to use the Bat-signal to capture Batman in view of the crimes he had been connected with.

I suspect that even though The Penguin and Max Shreck had been defeated, the incumbent mayor's job was still on the line following the Ice Princess's kidnap/death and the chaos that ensued.

Nevertheless, assuming we don't just write-off the Batsignal as merely a visual flourish to end the movie with, I suspect Gordon was calling in Batman to help the police with their enquiries concerning the Red Triangle Circus Gang. I doubt that, save for a few stragglers, they were on the loose anymore, but the police might still have needed Batman to clear up a few issues and corroborate any confessions elicited from the gang during interrogation.

As for Catwoman emerging at the end, I think she may have had some mixed-feelings about seeing the Batsignal. On one hand, she'd have been thankful that Batman had now been cleared of any wrongdoing she and The Penguin had framed him for (now that she know that Batman is Bruce Wayne and not such a bad guy after all), but she may also consider that it was time to get out of the city if Batman was now in the clear, since that might mean she had now been compromised with respect to her part in the previous few days' wrongdoing.

I doubt know, Gordon and the GCPD comes across as pretty incompetent in those films.
I think a cool scene would be if Gordon has snipers on the adjacent rooftop laying in wait for Batman to make an appearance. In a call back to the opening scene of Batman, Batman descends slowly into frame behind one of them and stealthily takes him out. He could then use one of the the sniper's headsets to communicate with Gordon from a distance.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

How do you get a gig writing the novelization for films? Seems like a pretty sweet job. I've always felt I'd be a good writer if I just had the story already made up for me lol

 

[JohnnyGobbs]

How do you get a gig writing the novelization for films? Seems like a pretty sweet job. I've always felt I'd be a good writer if I just had the story already made up for me lol

A lot of novelisation writers are established authors often within genre fiction. Craig Shaw Gardner penned a few fantasy/science-fiction novels before he was hired to pen the Batman and Back to the Future novelisations.

 

[metaphysician]

As I understand it, novelizations are journeyman work, mostly done by mid-level authors who want to pay the bills, but can't yet make a living purely off their own original work. Kind of like licensed "tie-in" novels, which similarly tend to be written off pre-existing outlines.

 

[dax]

Tim Burton never considered Batman Returns to be a real sequel to Batman.

If that were true, he wouldn't have brought up the whole "Vicki Vale getting inside the bat cave" controversy. He even had Bruce and Selina talking about how Vicki couldn't accept Bruce as Batman.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

So as the movie ends, with Alfred driving Bruce home in the Rolls-Royce Silver Wraith, does this scene take place directly after Batman's escapades in the sewer or some days later? Does Bruce have the Batsuit on under that coat?

One thing I can say for sure is that his muscle suit won't fit under his normal clothes, and considering how Michael Keaton was sitting comfortably and was able to bend down, he was definitely without the suit.

The book also says that the authorities now realise that Batman is innocent of all charges and that his name has been cleared. The novelisation attempts to wrap up the plot too neat and tidy for my liking.

I have to point out that the Bat signal was lit by the end of the movie, so he was more than likely cleared of the charge of killing the princess. How do they clear him of the mess on the streets during the police chase though is a mystery.

It's like how TDK never bothered to explain how the Scarecrow regained his sanity or how the narrows were pacified.

They made a treatment for all of Gotham, that probably included Scarcrow.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

I think that after having his humanity brought back through his relationship with Selina, he was finally able to let the suit stay at home and just be Bruce Wayne. No longer is he sitting at home in the dark, waiting for that signal to come on so he can feel something close to life again.

 

[LaughterLives]

If that were true, he wouldn't have brought up the whole "Vicki Vale getting inside the bat cave" controversy. He even had Bruce and Selina talking about how Vicki couldn't accept Bruce as Batman.

I think he was referring to the episodic nature of the sequel.
Poor choice of words but thats how I took it.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

The Batman Forever novelisation - by Peter David no less - is fantastic. It adds so much, including explaining that Harvey Dent smoothed things over between the police and Batman after Batman Returns.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

If you check out the item, a 'Maxquerade invitation' used in the film, you'll see that the date given for the event is 'Saturday December Twenty-First' (incidentally, December Twenty-First fell on a Saturday in 1991, the year the film started filming, so it's probably safe to assume that the film takes place in 1991, albeit a fantastical version of 1991). If the Maxquerade Ball took place on the evening of December Twenty-First one can probably assume that Batman's rescue of the first-born children kidnapped by The Red Triangle Circus Gang, as well his successful foiling of The Penguin's plan to launch penguin-operated rockets at Gotham, and Max's death as well as Catwoman's presumed death, take place on the evening of Twenty-First/early morning of Twenty-Second.

Since Alfred wishes Bruce a 'Merry Christmas' at the end of the film, it's also probably safe to assume that the very final scene, in which we see a shot of Catwoman (added at the final minute) in an apparently re-sewn costume, takes place late on Christmas Eve (i.e. a couple of days later).

I just finished rewatching Batman Returns and I agree with this^.There's a comment near the beginning of the film to the effect that they're already coming towards the last days of December so I'd say the whole film takes place over about a week.

 

[Lantern Venom]

The Batman Forever novelisation - by Peter David no less - is fantastic. It adds so much, including explaining that Harvey Dent smoothed things over between the police and Batman after Batman Returns.

Thanks for this info. I always assumed that WB or Schumaker just didn't find that story point interesting, so it was dropped.

Now I've always wondered how Peter Parker got back into JJJ's good graces after being a jerk at the Bugle in SM3. What do you have for me there?

JK. t:

 

[CLARKY]

So as the movie ends, with Alfred driving Bruce home in the Rolls-Royce Silver Wraith, does this scene take place directly after Batman's escapades in the sewer or some days later? Does Bruce have the Batsuit on under that coat?

For me there is no questionning here. Nos he hasn't his batsuit, you clearly see it when he picks up the cat. And, the most obvious : the wound on his cheek is dry and clean. So it happens a few in the same day much later or the next day something like this.

Secondly, how close to Christmas are we at that point in the movie?

I always assumed it was right on Christmas Day.

And finally, what do you think Batman's true standing is with the authorities at the movie's conclusion? Is he still wanted by the police, how much does Commissioner Gordon and the Mayor know about what truly went on?

I never asked myself that. and I won't because it has been a subplot. In the comicbook adaptation, Gordon hope batman will forgive them, and this is how I think it fits. They understand their mistake (until the next one )
Why all those question ? Is it your favorite film and you want to develop on it ? Or perhaps write a fan-fiction ?

 

[Deck Rickard]

Exactly. I mean Returns couldn't even keep the continuity of the design of the Wayne Manor and the Batcave from B'89.

Yeah, that was weird, wasn't it? I remember reading an interview with Tim Burton where he said the only way he could make the movie is if he didn't view it as a sequel and changed as much as he could. I guess I understand that, but on the other hand, this is a comic book property we're talking about here and if you agree to play in that sandbox, then you have to understand that sequels are always possible. And when you make one (even if you don't want to acknowledge that's what it is), you need to maintain some consistency there.

However, there may have been more to the story here; Anton Furst, who did the production design for Batman '89, was not involved in BR and actually killed himself in 1991. So perhaps WB and Burton weren't allowed to use any of the designs from the first film.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Yeah I've always thought that was weird too. You have the same Batman, the same Alfred, the same Commissioner Gordon, you reference Vicki Vale - but God forbid the house should look the same

I know Batman was filmed in England and Batman Returns in the US so the same location (Knebworth House, Hertfordshire) wasn't available for the exterior shots of Wayne Manor, but Burton used a miniature for the house in Returns anyway so he could have used a miniature of Knebworth