A moral triangle: who do you agree with?

[Closerframe]

There are those people who wake up from bed in the morning, have breakfast, go to work, work honestly to have their payment at the end of the month, then come back at the end of the day to spent the rest of the night with their families, see their children, their wives or husbands and spent the weekend together, without ruining other people's lives. They just don't want confusion. Want to live peacefully. This is good.
There are those people who wake up from bed in the morning, take a knife, hide in the pocket, go rob a bank, rape innocent children, kill innocent people without no reason. This is bad.
If bad perishes, good prevails. An impossible dream, actually.
Like I said, it is my simple philosophy. That's what I believe. That doesn't make it a fact.

What if a person who wakes up from bed in the morning, takes a knife, hides it in his pocket, go rob a bank and than returns home to financially take care of his family and children? Is he good or bad?

 

[Gilpesh]

There are those people who wake up from bed in the morning, have breakfast, go to work, work honestly to have their payment at the end of the month, then come back at the end of the day to spent the rest of the night with their families, see their children, their wives or husbands and spent the weekend together, without ruining other people's lives. They just don't want confusion. Want to live peacefully. This is good.

No. That's people living comfortably because having a bunch of things work out in their life combined with hard work. Do they help out the less fortunate? Do they take in orphans so they have a home? What about infidelity in marriages? What about kids cheating on math tests?

There are those people who wake up from bed in the morning, take a knife, hide in the pocket, go rob a bank,

And if they rob the bank to feed a family that they couldn't support normally because those so-called 'good' people don't let them into the club because there is something 'wrong' with them? What now? (like Closerframe asked)

rape innocent children, kill innocent people without no reason. This is bad.

What if they killed the person that raped their child? Is that reason enough? What if they kill someone who said they would rape their child? What if they kill someone who wrong someone they love? What if someone kills someone else because they believe the person was 'evil'?

If bad perishes, good prevails. An impossible dream, actually.

If bad perishes.... good gets to sit and have a relaxing time for a moment until more bad shows up. If good exists... bad will surely follow.

Like I said, it is my simple philosophy. That's what I believe. That doesn't make it a fact.

Not everything is bad and white.

 

[Jick]

What if a person who wakes up from bed in the morning, takes a knife, hides it in his pocket, go rob a bank and than returns home to financially take care of his family and children? Is he good or bad?

According to that? Bad. other people will be prejudiced if that happens.

No. That's people living comfortably because having a bunch of things work out in their life combined with hard work. Do they help out the less fortunate? Do they take in orphans so they have a home? What about infidelity in marriages? What about kids cheating on math tests?

People living their life without prejudicing the others, without harming the others, without creating confusion. That's good.
Do you think a kid cheating in a math test is bad? Not what I said.

And if they rob the bank to feed a family that they couldn't support normally because those so-called 'good' people don't let them into the club because there is something 'wrong' with them? What now? (like Closerframe asked)

What if a person who wakes up from bed in the morning, takes a knife, hides it in his pocket, go rob a bank and than returns home to financially take care of his family and children? Is he good or bad?

According to that? Bad. other people will be prejudiced if that happens.

What if they killed the person that raped their child? Is that reason enough? What if they kill someone who said they would rape their child?

One bad person gone. That's already something. It's one bad person who could kill more people and rape more children if he is still alive. But if he is long gone...think of how many families will keep living happily.
Someone killing without a reason, now that's bad. Take serial killers, for instance, rapers, or even those people who rob for the action. For the excitement. Some people will suffer because of this, but they don't care.

If bad perishes.... good gets to sit and have a relaxing time for a moment until more bad shows up. If good exists... bad will surely follow.

Like I said...an impossible dream, sadly.

Not everything is bad and white.

Black you mean?
Go figure

 

[Gilpesh]

People living their life without prejudicing the others, without harming the others, without creating confusion. That's good.

No... that's minding your own business. Being good might take you out of your normal life to help others.

Not what I said.

If cheating is bad? Wouldn't that mean the cheating on a math test would be bad? And does that mean they need to be 'perished'?

According to that? Bad. other people will be prejudiced if that happens.

Wait... helping your family is bad? Because that's the only reason the person went to steal.

One bad person gone. That's already something. It's one bad person who could kill more people and rape more children if he is still alive. But if he is long gone...think of how many families will keep living happily.

So... killing isn't bad? That's nice to know.

Someone killing without a reason, now that's bad. Take serial killers, for instance, rapers, or even those people who rob for the action. For the excitement. Some people will suffer because of this, but they don't care.

I wasn't talking about that.

Like I said...an impossible dream, sadly.

That's cause it starts off with an oversimplification of the world and goes on from there.

Black you mean?
Go figure

It's late at night.

 

[cerealkiller182]

Dreiberg was a wuss compared to the other characters. He had no conviction and was nearly incapable of forming his own opinions.

I see him as honest. He wants to the save the world but he wants to save the people, and he cannot decide. Thats part of a moral question, what is right? The question is not as easy as it sounds. I do think Dreiberg made a decision. He allowed Ozy to do it, he just wasnt happy about it. I find he was the most realistic position among a group of idealists. You see a lot of passionate opinions in this thread but I feel a lot are just talk and no walk. NO offense to anyone sincerely, but what you would do in a hypothetical and what you would do with "your finger on the button" could and most likely will be dramatically different than what you express in this thread.

 

[SuperFerret]

I see him as honest. He wants to the save the world but he wants to save the people, and he cannot decide. Thats part of a moral question, what is right? The question is not as easy as it sounds. I do think Dreiberg made a decision. He allowed Ozy to do it, he just wasnt happy about it. I find he was the most realistic position among a group of idealists. You see a lot of passionate opinions in this thread but I feel a lot are just talk and no walk. NO offense to anyone sincerely, but what you would do in a hypothetical and what you would do with "your finger on the button" could and most likely will be dramatically different than what you express in this thread.

That's why I said I agreed with Dan most of all.

 

[John Galt]

I see him as honest. He wants to the save the world but he wants to save the people, and he cannot decide. Thats part of a moral question, what is right? The question is not as easy as it sounds. I do think Dreiberg made a decision. He allowed Ozy to do it, he just wasnt happy about it. I find he was the most realistic position among a group of idealists. You see a lot of passionate opinions in this thread but I feel a lot are just talk and no walk. NO offense to anyone sincerely, but what you would do in a hypothetical and what you would do with "your finger on the button" could and most likely will be dramatically different than what you express in this thread.

No it wouldn't.

 

[SuperFerret]

No it wouldn't.

Truth is, you'll never know for sure until the moment hits.

 

[Jick]

No... that's minding your own business. Being good might take you out of your normal life to help others.

Doesn't take away the fact that they are good people.

If cheating is bad? Wouldn't that mean the cheating on a math test would be bad? And does that mean they need to be 'perished'?

Dude, does this kid go out on a murder rampage abusing and killing innocent?
If so, yeah, he needs to be perished.

Wait... helping your family is bad? Because that's the only reason the person went to steal.

Help your family? No. Steal? Yes.

So... killing isn't bad? That's nice to know.

Killing innocents without reason is bad. Are you reading the posts? I won't repeat myself again.

 

[Gilpesh]

Doesn't take away the fact that they are good people.

No. They're sheep just like Dan. Who sit back and let bad happen... how is that good?

Dude, does this kid go out on a murder rampage abusing and killing innocent?
If so, yeah, he needs to be perished.

So cheating of any kind isn't evil? Sweet. Looks like I'm getting money back on taxes.

Help your family? No. Steal? Yes.

He's stealing to help his family. Do you get that? That's the only way he can help them... you gonna 'perish' him too?

Killing innocents without reason is bad. Are you reading the posts? I won't repeat myself again.

Are you comprehending my posts?

Is killing because a guy threatened you, evil? Is killing because you deem someone 'evil', good? Can you define 'without reason'?

 

[Jick]

No. They're sheep just like Dan. Who sit back and let bad happen... how is that good?

Not putting anyone in harms way or destroying their lives.

So cheating of any kind isn't evil?

Not what I said.
Of course it is. But cheating in a math test? Did anyone was prejudiced or killed by it? If so, then yeah.

He's stealing to help his family. Do you get that? That's the only way he can help them... you gonna 'perish' him too?

Yeah. This is not the way. Sometimes you may be stealing from someone in worst conditions.

Are you comprehending my posts?

Is killing because a guy threatened you, evil? Is killing because you deem someone 'evil', good? Can you define 'without reason'?

I already said, and told you I wasn't going to repeat, but here we go:

There are those people who wake up from bed in the morning, take a knife, hide in the pocket, go rob a bank, rape innocent children, kill innocent people without no reason. This is bad.

Killing for no reason

Killing innocents without reason is bad.

Killing for no reason.

Someone killing without a reason, now that's bad.

Killing for no reason.
And, by no reason, I mean no reason. Do you understand that?
By no reason I mean:

Take serial killers, for instance, rapers, or even those people who rob for the action. For the excitement. Some people will suffer because of this, but they don't care.

This is bad. And their victims don't deserve to suffer because of them. Do you think they do? Would you?
That's why they need to perish. Big bad stuff...not someone cheating on a math test.

 

[Gilpesh]

Alright, looks like you're fine with people killing because they had a reason. Good to know.

 

[Jick]

Yeah, like that's totally what I said

 

[Rasputin911]

Gilpesh, your line of reasoning that the ends justify the means and there is no good/evil is what has allowed so many dangerous megalomaniacs and killers over the years.

And if you want a picture that sums up Ozy, go to the page where he is standing in his office surrounded by dolls of himself after his conversation with Rorschach. That is the essence of the character right there. He is by far the most dangerous person in the book. Even his rival the Comedian doesen't approach his level of megalomania and ruthlessness

 

[Gilpesh]

Gilpesh, your line of reasoning that the ends justify the means and there is no good/evil is what has allowed so many dangerous megalomaniacs and killers over the years.

Wait... me playing devil's advocate to show how flawed black/white thinking is means that I think the end justify the means and that there isn't good or evil?

Wow.

 

[Rasputin911]

wow.

 

[SuperFerret]

wow.

YAY! I fit in!

 

[Rasputin911]

^no, we don't take kindly to ferrets around here...

 

[SuperFerret]

 

[AnorexicBatman]

Rosarch sees the world in black and white...
Ozymandias sees only gray...
Manhattan sees nothing....

you decide...

 

[Afternoon]

"No... that's minding your own business. Being good might take you out of your normal life to help others."


"Doesn't take away the fact that they are good people."

Sounds a bit to me like those kind of people who listened to the Genovese girl screaming, while she was raped and killed. And did nothing. Good people?

 

[Gilpesh]

Sounds a bit to me like those kind of people who listened to the Genovese girl screaming, while she was raped and killed. And did nothing. Good people?

Actually... if you know the story of the Kitty Genovese murder... they weren't good or bad people, they were just people. But if you were harboring an already "People are evil" mindset like Rorschach and the guy that wrote the article for the paper that pretty much libeled the 'eye witnesses'... it was a 'sign'.

Cause only two people saw her actually get attacked, one seeing the first and the other seeing the second (which actually took place out of the view of the apartment building where all the people lived that 'eye witnessed' it). One called the cops because of that. Most of the people that saw her, were actually woken up by her screams, so they missed her actually being attacked. Some person actually yelled at the attacker which made him run away and someone else thought she was hurt and had their parent call the cops. It didn't help when there was a bar on that street so many just wrote it off as a drunken couple fighting.... and it really didn't help when Kitty stood up and walked away toward her place, cause everyone thought she was fine.

 

[Afternoon]

Actually... if you know the story of the Kitty Genovese murder... they weren't good or bad people, they were just people. But if you were harboring an already "People are evil" mindset like Rorschach and the guy that wrote the article for the paper that pretty much libeled the 'eye witnesses'... it was a 'sign'.

Cause only two people saw her actually get attacked, one seeing the first and the other seeing the second (which actually took place out of the view of the apartment building where all the people lived that 'eye witnessed' it). One called the cops because of that. Most of the people that saw her, were actually woken up by her screams, so they missed her actually being attacked. Some person actually yelled at the attacker which made him run away and someone else thought she was hurt and had their parent call the cops. It didn't help when there was a bar on that street so many just wrote it off as a drunken couple fighting.... and it really didn't help when Kitty stood up and walked away toward her place, cause everyone thought she was fine.

Yeah, I actually read this on Wikipedia after I posted her. On the other hand, passive Bystanders aren't as seldom as one might suspect.

 

[Gilpesh]

Yeah, I actually read this on Wikipedia after I posted her. On the other hand, passive Bystanders aren't as seldom as one might suspect.

I just remembered another fun fact about this horrible tragedy. 911 didn't always work the way it does today.... you had to give information about yourself before they even got to why you were calling. Which turns people off the idea of calling.

 

[Dark Phantom]

I brought my friend to see the film, after he only read up to like chapter 3 . A few days later we start discussing the themes and character view points and it created a controversy as follows....

Friendso i was thinking about who i liked more throughout wachmen
Friend: and I can't decide whether I liked doc manhatton or the comedian better
Me: those are the 2 characters i relate to the most
Friend: how so?
Me: the comedian sees the world as one big joke
Me: as do i
Friend: you see the world as one big joke?
Me: oh yeah
Me: you dont see it?
Friend: explain
Me: one way or another we die
Me: its just a matter of people trying to either prevent death or trying to cause an enemies death
Me: either way, the punchline is we die anyway
Friend: and you think about this, on a daily basis
Friend: and relate it
Friend: to everything you do?
Me: well i try to keep myself distracted
Me: the comedian saw the cruel joke of life
Me therefore he had no empathy towards anybody
Me: which relates back to Dr.Manhattan
Me: who is completley isolated
Me: difference is he is able to see past present and future
Me: so he knows the outcome of everything and is powerless to stop it
Friend: didnt he change it though?
Friend or is it assumed that he already knew everything was gonna happen like that anyway
Friend: wait
Friend: i think you're taking it a bit t oo seriously ahha
Friend: if you're really like teh comedian
Friend: then you shouldn't give a damn about living or dieing
Friend: like i dont see how you "relate" to the comedian haha
Me: i didnt say im like the comedian. i mean i can relate to his view of the world, but not of his actions
Friend: i think you're taking it a bit too personal jimmy haha
Me: dude
Me: these are the discussions of watchmen fans
Me: some colleges analyze the graphic novel to tackle the deeper meanings
Me: and creates alot of controversy among opposing view points
Me: one student will agree with rorschach's frame of mind while another will say Ozy was right
Friend: thats called difference of opinion though,
Me: yes but just because people identify/relate to character's view points does not necessarily mean they behave that same way
Friend: i know
Friend: but i'm saying that relate usually is associating with acting the same
Friend: i dont care about viewpoints