A New United Kingdom?

[regwec]

The rest of the world may be unaware that, today, Scotland is voting on whether it wants to separate politically from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

What has been relatively little discussed is where that will leave the remaining constituents of the UK, or the "rUK". England, Wales and Northern Ireland will still be members. There is strong sentiment in some parts of Scotland (particularly Shetland) to separate from a newly Independent Scotland ("IS"), and to rejoin rUK, so the geographical extent of rUK is a little unclear.

rUK would be richer, as measured by GDP per person, more densely populated, and more right-wing. It is likely to have less influence in the EU, has voting rights are measured by size of population during treat changes, and its place as a permanent member of the UN security council could be under threat, which is likely to be bad news for the USA.

A lot of debate centers on some fairly superficial details, such as what the flag would look like. Here is my attempt:

Do any of you have any thoughts on this?

 

[Dark Raven]

I was looking for a thread on this topic in here. I couldn't believe no-one even seemed bothered to discuss it, or maybe not even aware of what's going on in the UK. It's the equivalent of the US losing one of its major states, but perhaps even more dramatic than that. At least with the US, their flag could remain essentially the same save for one missing state. With the Union Jack, it would lose a 3rd of the flag's design.

There are many other considerations if Scotland votes yes. They certainly will have trouble enjoying some of the same rights or privileges as before, unless they think they can have their cake and eat it. I personally would be not in favour of Scotland splitting.

BTW, for those who don't know, rUK stands for "rest of the UK".

 

[StarLord]

There are many other considerations if Scotland votes yes. They certainly will have trouble enjoying some of the same rights or privileges as before, unless they think they can have their cake and eat it

How exactly?

I'm from Scotland and live in Scotland. I voted Yes.

We're certainly not going to have trouble enjoying some of the same rights or privileges as before, partially because we never had any thanks to Westminster and their empty promises.

Hope over fear.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I'm rooting for Scotland to leave the UK. As a person from New York, it's often a bit annoying how the Democratic New York City often determines how things are run throughout New York state, including the much more conservative Upstate New York. All we really get are a few bones thrown at us like the Lt. Governor nomination, and New York is only going to become more left-wing thanks to de Blasio. I imagine the left-wing Scotland feels the same way with the much more conservative England often dominating the political scene and implementing policies that many Scottish people just don't want.

 

[regwec]

I genuinely hope for your sake that you are right, but that "hope over fear" stuff really doesn't mean anything. It's the most ingenious political slogan I have heard in years.

Anywho, the thread title is about rUK; it's probably better that we don't rerun all the separation debates, since everyone will already have made up their mind, and there is no going back now.

 

[StarLord]

I genuinely hope for your sake that you are right, but that "hope over fear" stuff really doesn't mean anything. It's the most ingenious political slogan I have heard in years.

Anywho, the thread title is about rUK; it's probably better that we don't rerun all the separation debates, since everyone will already have made up their mind, and there is no going back now.

It may be ingenious to you, but for us as a nation looking to be independent, it certainly isn't. This is history, whether people like it or, and it's funny because a lot people that are against it don't even like in the UK, never mind Scotland.

But yeah, I don't want to create another 'who's right and who's wrong' so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Pink Ranger]

No disrespect to the Yes side (unlike Quebec separatists, from what I can tell Scottish separation is not motivated by racism) but I do hope the United Kingdom remains together.

rUK would be richer, as measured by GDP per person, more densely populated, and more right-wing. It is likely to have less influence in the EU, has voting rights are measured by size of population during treat changes, and its place as a permanent member of the UN security council could be under threat, which is likely to be bad news for the USA.

Both Russia and China underwent wrenching political change during their postwar histories, and both revamped countries retained their UN security council seat, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I'm rooting for Scotland to leave the UK. As a person from New York, it's often a bit annoying how the Democratic New York City often determines how things are run throughout New York state, including the much more conservative Upstate New York. All we really get are a few bones thrown at us like the Lt. Governor nomination, and New York is only going to become more left-wing thanks to de Blasio. I imagine the left-wing Scotland feels the same way with the much more conservative England often dominating the political scene and implementing policies that many Scottish people just don't want.

Scotland has its own devolved parliament with large areas of jurisdiction, so is represented at the "regional" level and the national level in the UK proportionately.

Also, post-war, the majority of Scots voted for the majority of the governments. Two of the last three prime ministers were also Scottish.

It's a bit of a different situation.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Dude, no one's unaware. It's all anyone's talking about in the US today as well. It's a huge story everywhere.

I'm curious to see the outcome, but not personally invested in the results.

 

[chamber-music]

I'm rooting for Scotland to leave the UK. As a person from New York, it's often a bit annoying how the Democratic New York City often determines how things are run throughout New York state, including the much more conservative Upstate New York. All we really get are a few bones thrown at us like the Lt. Governor nomination, and New York is only going to become more left-wing thanks to de Blasio. I imagine the left-wing Scotland feels the same way with the much more conservative England often dominating the political scene and implementing policies that many Scottish people just don't want.

The alternative is more devolved powers to the Scottish parliament which they will get anyway as a way to counter balance things at a national level will still remaining in the uk. The SNP originally wanted devo-max on the ballot which they actually prefered but prime minister Cameron played politics.

Which ever way things I go I hope for the best for Scots.

The only reason Scotland doesn't already have devo-max is because if they have then every UK regional government, city and town will want it. We already have London and Wales and northern saying they want more devolved powers now.

Scotland being more left wing than England is a myth. Many Scots have conservative views on a bunch of issues. The Tory party aren't liked Scotland particularly due to the thatcher governments behaviour. The conservatives couldn't even win a majority in the general election when everyone was sick of labour. The conservatives getting into power had more to do with people being fed of the labour party than England suddenly becoming more right wing.

 

[regwec]

The idea that there are no Tories in Scotland is another myth: just over 400,000 people voted for the Conservatives in Scotland at the last general election, compared to just under 500,000 who voted for the SNP. It is the magic of constituency boundaries that leads to so few Scottish Tory MPs (the same is also true of England, where Labour have a huge inbuilt electoral advantage).

The point about devolution max brings me back to the topic of the future for rUK, and in particular England. I don't hear many people say that they are desperate for an autonomous government in their town or county, but I do hear a lot of people say that they want England to have equal powers to Scotland or Wales in the Union. That would mean either the exclusion of non-English MPs from the Commons when matters affecting England alone were under debate, or a separate English parliament.

I think I prefer the idea of an English parliament. I think it should probably be somewhere other than London, but where? Birmingham is the second city, while Manchester is perhaps the second best connected. York has a good historical claim to be England's sub-capital, since it has its own Archbishop, was the "capital" of the viking Danelaw, and is the county town of England's largest historical county.

 

[Destructus86]

Dude, no one's unaware. It's all anyone's talking about in the US today as well. It's a huge story everywhere.

I'm curious to see the outcome, but not personally invested in the results.

Welll....people here are not unaware...they just don't care :P

 

[chamber-music]

An English parliament would probably just be in west minister with only English MPs voting on English issues. I can't see English MPs wanting to go sit in another parliament somewhere else in the country which will include having to give them more money for accommodation or waste more money building another parliament building.

 

[Pink Ranger]

An English parliament would probably just be in west minister with only English MPs voting on English issues. I can't see English MPs wanting to go sit in another parliament somewhere else in the country which will include having to give them more money for accommodation or waste more money building another parliament building.

What's the feasability of making the United Kingdom into a true federalist state, with distinct region-specific legislative bodies completely separate from the Palace of Westminster?

 

[Dark Raven]

The idea that there are no Tories in Scotland is another myth: just over 400,000 people voted for the Conservatives in Scotland at the last general election, compared to just under 500,000 who voted for the SNP. It is the magic of constituency boundaries that leads to so few Scottish Tory MPs (the same is also true of England, where Labour have a huge inbuilt electoral advantage).

The point about devolution max brings me back to the topic of the future for rUK, and in particular England. I don't hear many people say that they are desperate for an autonomous government in their town or county, but I do hear a lot of people say that they want England to have equal powers to Scotland or Wales in the Union. That would mean either the exclusion of non-English MPs from the Commons when matters affecting England alone were under debate, or a separate English parliament.

I think I prefer the idea of an English parliament. I think it should probably be somewhere other than London, but where? Birmingham is the second city, while Manchester is perhaps the second best connected. York has a good historical claim to be England's sub-capital, since it has its own Archbishop, was the "capital" of the viking Danelaw, and is the county town of England's largest historical county.

No-one's going to go all the way up to one of these other cities for that. It should be located in the capital.

 

[the_ultimate_evil]

What I'm curious about is, if they vote yes and are successful how long before the morons in charge of here(n.ireland) think they can try it

Yeah because this place need more crap about being in the uk

 

[Dark Raven]

So what's going to happen to any Scottish websites? They can't really use .co.uk anymore, and isn't sc or other letters taken by other countries already?

 

[regwec]

No-one's going to go all the way up to one of these other cities for that. It should be located in the capital.

I am suggesting that Members of the English Parliament ("EMP's") be a different set of people to Members of the UK Parliament ("MP's"), in just the same way that Scotland has MSP's. In that regard, they will not be going "all the way up anywhere", because they will not be based in London. Living expenses outside the capital are marginal compared to those within, so they would be relatively cheap.

One of the reasons for the insurgence of UKIP, and of the nationalist movements in the fringe nations, is apparently that people feel estranged from a distant, Westminster-based political elite. I think a good way of acknowledging that England exists outside London is to put an English parliament elsewhere.

What I'm curious about is, if they vote yes and are successful how long before the morons in charge of here(n.ireland) think they can try it

Yeah because this place need more crap about being in the uk

The republican parties wouldn't have the voting weight in Stormont to legislate for it, would they?

 

[the_ultimate_evil]

The republican parties wouldn't have the voting weight in Stormont to legislate for it, would they?

Truthfully I don't know, I don't think so but if the somehow managed it but you can bet your ass that every bugger and his brother would turn out to vote.

Hell my country is the only one I know of that has voted willingly in legitimate terrorists from both sides into parliament

 

[regwec]

Actually, at the assembly it appears to be on a knife edge.

The fact that the Conservatives have 15% of the vote but no seats would probably mean that an independence referendum in your country would get a comfortable "no" vote overall, however.

 

[Dark Raven]

David Cameron said he would kill himself if Scotland leaves the UK. He didn't just say it, he promised he would do it.

Well, that puts him in a bit of a pickle tomorrow morning if the yes vote is overwhelming.

 

[regwec]

Er, source? He said that being assassinated would be a release, of that's what you mean.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

David Cameron said he would kill himself if Scotland leaves the UK. He didn't just say it, he promised he would do it.

Well, that puts him in a bit of a pickle tomorrow morning if the yes vote is overwhelming.

I believe that was an 'Onion' article.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I've heard some commentators say it will be a narrow win for NO. I'm going to go out on a limb and say YES will win. I think the youth vote is being underestimated. Youth don't usually vote in great numbers, because most elections or referendums don't carry this kind of collective and national import. They're engaged this time, because they want to be part of something like the future of their country and being young and idealistic, they probably see independence as a cause. Especially in this wired social media world, I can see teens and early 20's organizing and getting out the vote through Twitter and other means.

 

[regwec]

Exit poll gives it to "No", 54/46. A much bigger win for "No" than most predicted.

These are usually pretty accurate, but we haven't had a referendum like this before.