A new solution for Iraq?

[Spider-Bite]

If we pull out of Iraq the civil war will spread throughout the entire middle east. To prevent the world's oil supply from being blown up, the United States will most likely be very involved in it. We would be dragged through World War 3.

If we stay in Iraq, the same thing will happen anyways, but with added hatred for the U.S, with more dollars and lives lost over the next few years.

This is what I believe we should do.

We redeploy all of our troops in Iraq, to Iraq's border. The new policy is that nobody gets in or out for the next three years. Our troops will be authorized to shoot on sight anybody who crosses the border, but this will be made known to the public ahead of time. Under this circumstance, the only people who would be willing to try and cross the border would most likely be Iranians trying to influence the war. Iraq is not America where millions of people want to move there for a better life. Iraq is a smaller country. It would be pretty easy in this circumstance to secure Iraq's border. It wouldn't be like trying to secure our own border.

Instead of trying to break up Iraq's civil war, policing their streets, building their schools. We let Iraq run Iraq. We don't meddle in their civil war, and we don't let Iran meddle in their civil war either. We let the war run it's course. We obviously can't prevent it, but maybe we can prevent it from spreading throughout the middle east.

War ends in only two ways.

1. Somebody wins
2. Peace agreement

There isn't going to be a peace agreement in Iraq between the Sunnis and the Sh.ites. And nobody can win so long as we "stay the course." The only way for it to end, is if we quit meddling, and let somebody win. We secure the border to simply prevent it from spreading. If Iraq ends up with a dictaorship, then so be it. If they end up with a democracy, then so be it. If the Sunnis are in charge, then oh well. The same goes for the Sh.ites.

I belive this would give us the best result we can really hope for. I think the democrat's plan is better than Bush's, but it's still not the best we can do.

 

[Tobiaswins]

The only way I see out of Iraq is to split Iraq into 3 seperate territories, Sunni, Shia, and Kurdish. They will never get along, the ancient hatred goes back too far.

But that's just my opinion.

peace

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

Pull out.It will happen.

 

[Spider-Bite]

The only way I see out of Iraq is to split Iraq into 3 seperate territories, Sunni, Shia, and Kurdish. They will never get along, the ancient hatred goes back too far.

But that's just my opinion.

peace

They would all continue to fight over the oil, as well as continue their secetarian violence against each other. It would be war between the different groups just like now, only easier for them to decipher between one of their own and one of the "others."

Joe Biden's plan really is not a solution. The point is to prevent a huge war from spreading throughout the middle east, or at least prevent it long enough for us to get off of oil.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Staying the course isn't an option because that's been proven to be a complete failure.

Pulling out of Iraq prematurely will be just a big of a mistake as going into Iraq.

And your plan is criminally negligent. That will be even worse both pulling out and just staying the course. With your plan we should just pull out if we're going to just let Iraq have chaos. At least they'll be out of harms way.

What should be done is trying to work with the Sunni insurgency and the Shiite militias and get al-Qaeda in Iraq out of Iraq. If there's one thing these groups have in common is that they hate al-Qaeda. We should also try and secure Iraq's borders.

In my personal opinion, Iraq should be divided into 3 completely autonomous regions: Sunni, Shiite, and Kurd with a neutral Baghdad:

The Republic of Iraq would only exist for four objectives:
1. Common national defense
2. Representation in international relations
3. Currency union
4. Equal division of Iraq's oil wealth

 

[psylockolussus]

Divide them into 3 countries.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Staying the course isn't an option because that's been proven to be a complete failure.

Pulling out of Iraq prematurely will be just a big of a mistake as going into Iraq.

And your plan is criminally negligent. That will be even worse both pulling out and just staying the course. With your plan we should just pull out if we're going to just let Iraq have chaos. At least they'll be out of harms way.

What should be done is trying to work with the Sunni insurgency and the Shiite militias and get al-Qaeda in Iraq out of Iraq. If there's one thing these groups have in common is that they hate al-Qaeda. We should also try and secure Iraq's borders.

In my personal opinion, Iraq should be divided into 3 completely autonomous regions: Sunni, Shiite, and Kurd with a neutral Baghdad:

The Republic of Iraq would only exist for four objectives:
1. Common national defense
2. Representation in international relations
3. Currency union
4. Equal division of Iraq's oil wealth

I think they would just keep fighting if we did that, and we'd have the same result we would get if left or stayed the course. these different groups hate each other. Putting up borders wont change that.

 

[TNC9852002]

Very soon the US government will be exposed for creating this false war and soon we'll have every other country in the world at our throats..

-TNC

 

[Spider-Bite]

Very soon the US government will be exposed for creating this false war and soon we'll have every other country in the world at our throats..

-TNC

Very soon? How about years ago already. We already know Saddam had no weapons of mass desturction, and no ties to Alqueda. And people in many countries are angry at us.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Staying the course isn't an option because that's been proven to be a complete failure.

Pulling out of Iraq prematurely will be just a big of a mistake as going into Iraq.

And your plan is criminally negligent. That will be even worse both pulling out and just staying the course. With your plan we should just pull out if we're going to just let Iraq have chaos. At least they'll be out of harms way.

the point of securing the border is to stop it from spilling over into Iran.

What should be done is trying to work with the Sunni insurgency and the Shiite militias and get al-Qaeda in Iraq out of Iraq. If there's one thing these groups have in common is that they hate al-Qaeda. .

Sh.ites are alligning themselves more closely with alqueda, because they are angry at us for meddling.

We should also try and secure Iraq's borders

That's impossible unless we were to do what I am saying we should do. Hence the reason Iranians are able to smuggle weapons into the country. Our military can only do so many things at once. So long as our forces are busy playing mommy and daddy for the Iraqis, they will never have the resources necessary to secure the border, and if that wasn't true, then it would already be secured.

In my personal opinion, Iraq should be divided into 3 completely autonomous regions: Sunni, Shiite, and Kurd with a neutral Baghdad:

The Republic of Iraq would only exist for four objectives:
1. Common national defense
2. Representation in international relations
3. Currency union
4. Equal division of Iraq's oil wealth

[/QUOTE]

How is that going to solve anything? And how will relations between the groups be any different from what they are now? If not worse? Every group will say the other group is getting too much oil wealth. They will still keep trying to kill each other the same as they are now.

Not to mention, our intelligence agencies, and military generals say that maybe might have worked several years ago, but it's too late now, because the civil war has already gone too far. If we tried that, people would just keep killing each other the way they are now. A pice of paper, or a "You are now entering" sign isn't going to have any impact on that.

Sorry, for re-quoting you. I wasn't satisfied with my previous quote. And just to give you the heads up, even though your a republican, you might want to look at democrat Presidential hopeful, Joe Biden. This was his idea your supporting.

Suprisingly a few months ago, John McCain said that if the current plan still isn't working 5 years from now, we should do what I've been saying we should do for well over a year now. However I believe that by then it would be too late. The war will have already spilled over.

 

[hippie_hunter]

the point of securing the border is to stop it from spilling over into Iran.

And do you think that US government would care about THAT! If we're just going to allow chaos, it would be better to have the troops home and out of harms way that just standing around in the middle of a freaking deadlier civil war.

Sh.ites are alligning themselves more closely with alqueda, because they are angry at us for meddling.

Actually they are not aligning themselves with al-Qaeda. The Shiites aren't aligning with them because they're a Sunni group. The Sunnis aren't aligning with them because they're a foreign group and are way more accepting of civilian casualties. Take a guess who killed the most recent al-Qaeda in Iraq leader, Iraqi Sunnis. Take a guess how the U.S. found out about Zarqawi's location, Sunnis.

That's impossible unless we were to do what I am saying we should do. Hence the reason Iranians are able to smuggle weapons into the country. Our military can only do so many things at once. So long as our forces are busy playing mommy and daddy for the Iraqis, they will never have the resources necessary to secure the border, and if that wasn't true, then it would already be secured.

If we train the Iraqi army better and work more closely with both Sunni and Shiite group it can be possible.

How is that going to solve anything? And how will relations between the groups be any different from what they are now? If not worse? Every group will say the other group is getting too much oil wealth. They will still keep trying to kill each other the same as they are now.

The Sunnis are afraid of the break up of Iraq, which will no longer allow oil revenues to flow into their area. They're also afraid of being persecuted by the Shiites and Kurds. Dividing Iraq into three completely autonomous regions should quell the fears that they will be ironically persecuted yet keeping the Republic of Iraq will make sure that oil revenue is divided evenly.

Not to mention, our intelligence agencies, and military generals say that maybe might have worked several years ago, but it's too late now, because the civil war has already gone too far. If we tried that, people would just keep killing each other the way they are now. A pice of paper, or a "You are now entering" sign isn't going to have any impact on that.

I'm not saying to divide Iraq into 3 countries. Iraq will still exist, just that the three groups would not interfere with each other and oil revenues would be equally distributed.

Sorry, for re-quoting you. I wasn't satisfied with my previous quote. And just to give you the heads up, even though your a republican, you might want to look at democrat Presidential hopeful, Joe Biden. This was his idea your supporting.

I thought that Biden supported dividing Iraq into three independent countries. Which is a bad idea.

Suprisingly a few months ago, John McCain said that if the current plan still isn't working 5 years from now, we should do what I've been saying we should do for well over a year now. However I believe that by then it would be too late. The war will have already spilled over.

I don't think that the Iraqi war is going to spill over unless nations such as Iran, Turkey, Syria, and Saudi Arabia allow themselves to intervene.

 

[Harlekin]

Where's the option: "Your plan's stupid"?

Shoot on sight? Why not just make a big old wall around the country? You should see if the Russians are willing to help biuld it.

 

[TNC9852002]

Very soon? How about years ago already. We already know Saddam had no weapons of mass desturction, and no ties to Alqueda. And people in many countries are angry at us.

But all of this isn't enough. It'll reach a level that not even our government will be able to contain. There are talks about a civil war, a mass uprising to be organized against our government.

-TNC

 

[Darthphere]

Spider-Bite, do you have any hobbies? Friends? Do you go out? It seems like all you do is spend all your time in a dark room with a list of things we need to fix, and you find all these "intelligent" ways to fix everything. Go out, have a beer, plow through some hood rats.

 

[Matt]

I agree with H_H but he doesn't take it far enough. Do not have a unified Iraq at all. Afterall, how do you end civil war? By no longer making each faction one country.

Allow each reigion to form a unified Kurdistan, Sunnistan, and Shiistan. U.S. troops could oversee Sunnis of Kurdistan and Shiistan migrating to their reigion, Shiites of each going to their reigion, and Kurds of each going to their reigion. Ensure no genocides or anything of the likes. Inform each country we will intervene against the aggressor if they try to attack one another, and then pull the hell out. Obviously the oil wealth would have to be divided, but no unification beyond that point as they would never agree.

There are literally NO benefits to a united Iraq at this point.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I agree with H_H but he doesn't take it far enough. Do not have a unified Iraq at all. Afterall, how do you end civil war? By no longer making each faction one country.

De facto independence would be better off than true independence.

Allow each reigion to form a unified Kurdistan, Sunnistan, and Shiistan. U.S. troops could oversee Sunnis of Kurdistan and Shiistan migrating to their reigion, Shiites of each going to their reigion, and Kurds of each going to their reigion. Ensure no genocides or anything of the likes. Inform each country we will intervene against the aggressor if they try to attack one another, and then pull the hell out. Obviously the oil wealth would have to be divided, but no unification beyond that point as they would never agree.

The problem is that the Sunni region has no oil at all. How will they get the oil wealth that they've been benefitting from and they want?

An Iraqi federation would be better to have as a body to divide the oil wealth equally among the three regions, serving as a currency union between the three regions, represent the three regions internationally, and provide a common defense among the three regions.

There are literally NO benefits to a united Iraq at this point.

A psuedo-united Iraq would keep the Sunnis happy and allow the oil wealth to be distributed equally. That's really the only benefits of keeping it united and that is the only function it should serve.

But otherwise internally, have the three regions act as if they're their own country.

 

[Spider-Bite]

But all of this isn't enough. It'll reach a level that not even our government will be able to contain. There are talks about a civil war, a mass uprising to be organized against our government.

-TNC

That's not going to happen.

 

[Erundur]

Allow each reigion to form a unified Kurdistan, Sunnistan, and Shiistan.
Problem with that is, what about the other Kurds of Turkey, Iran and parts of the caucuses? those nations will not be too happy, and besides another Shiistan would cause fear among the rest of the sunni nations.



There are literally NO benefits to a united Iraq at this point.
Yes there is, another Dictator.

 

[Spider-Bite]

And do you think that US government would care about THAT!

Yes. People from both parties openly acknowledge that. The bush administration acknowledges this more than anybody else. It's a big part of the reason Republicans are against a pull out.

If we're just going to allow chaos, it would be better to have the troops home and out of harms way that just standing around in the middle of a freaking deadlier civil war.

I'm opposed to them standing in the middle. That's why I want them on the perimeter, outside of the civil war.

Actually they are not aligning themselves with al-Qaeda. The Shiites aren't aligning with them because they're a Sunni group. The Sunnis aren't aligning with them because they're a foreign group and are way more accepting of civilian casualties. Take a guess who killed the most recent al-Qaeda in Iraq leader, Iraqi Sunnis. Take a guess how the U.S. found out about Zarqawi's location, Sunnis.

I know that Sunnis are killing Alqueda. The Sunnis in Iraq have very different views about the future of the middle east. Than Alqueda.

If we train the Iraqi army better and work more closely with both Sunni and Shiite group it can be possible.

We tried and failed already at that. Everybody keeps saying work more closely. Get em to do this, get em to do that. It's not happening. It's not a realistic expectation. Sh.ite military officials don't give a crap if Iran sneaks weapons into the country, delivering them to sh.ite militias.

The Sunnis are afraid of the break up of Iraq, which will no longer allow oil revenues to flow into their area. They're also afraid of being persecuted by the Shiites and Kurds. Dividing Iraq into three completely autonomous regions should quell the fears that they will be ironically persecuted yet keeping the Republic of Iraq will make sure that oil revenue is divided evenly.

That's kind of a contraditiction. If they are afraid of a break up of Iraq, then dividing Iraq is not going to qualm their fears. They will want control, so that they know for sure, they will get their share of the oil, or what they consider to be their share.

I'm not saying to divide Iraq into 3 countries. Iraq will still exist, just that the three groups would not interfere with each other and oil revenues would be equally distributed.

Equally distributed to each region, or to each individual? The Sh.ites will probably want it to each individual, and the Sunnis will probably want it distributed to each region equally. And they will fight over this.

I thought that Biden supported dividing Iraq into three independent countries. Which is a bad idea.

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong. I thought he wanted to do it just like this.

I don't think that the Iraqi war is going to spill over unless nations such as Iran, Turkey, Syria, and Saudi Arabia allow themselves to intervene.

I believe they will intentionally get involved and promote the spill over. Iran is already doing it. The Sh.ites in Iraq are still furious about the Israeli attacks on Lebannon.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Spider-Bite, do you have any hobbies? Friends? Do you go out?

Used to. I used to never be home. Was always out running around.

It seems like all you do is spend all your time in a dark room with a list of things we need to fix, and you find all these "intelligent" ways to fix everything.

Minus the dark room.

Go out, have a beer, plow through some hood rats.

I hate beer or anything alcoholic, and the bar is extremely annoying when your the only one not drunk. Plus I always feel like I'm surrounded by idiots whenever I go to the bar.

Starting college in about a month.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Very soon? How about years ago already. We already know Saddam had no weapons of mass desturction, and no ties to Alqueda. And people in many countries are angry at us.

Actually Saddam's government had a non-agression pact with al-Qaeda. That was really the only tie they had with the group.

Notice how there were no attacks on Iraq by al-Qaeda but there were in neighboring countries such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Turkey and other nations such as Pakistan, Indonesia, Yemen, and Egypt got attacked also by the group.

 

[Spider-Bite]

I agree with H_H but he doesn't take it far enough. Do not have a unified Iraq at all. Afterall, how do you end civil war? By no longer making each faction one country.

Allow each reigion to form a unified Kurdistan, Sunnistan, and Shiistan. U.S. troops could oversee Sunnis of Kurdistan and Shiistan migrating to their reigion, Shiites of each going to their reigion, and Kurds of each going to their reigion. Ensure no genocides or anything of the likes. Inform each country we will intervene against the aggressor if they try to attack one another, and then pull the hell out. Obviously the oil wealth would have to be divided, but no unification beyond that point as they would never agree.

There are literally NO benefits to a united Iraq at this point.

I think that would cause even more problems. The Sunnis would be left out of the oil wealth, and without practically any power after enjoying 15 years of rule under Saddam. Not only would they terrorize Iraq, but they would probably terrorize us out of revenge for taking everything from them and giving it to the Sh.ites.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Actually Saddam's government had a non-agression pact with al-Qaeda. That was really the only tie they had with the group.

Notice how there were no attacks on Iraq by al-Qaeda but there were in neighboring countries such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Turkey and other nations such as Pakistan, Indonesia, Yemen, and Egypt got attacked also by the group.

As far as I know, Osama wanted an Alqueda base in Iraq for a very long time, but Saddam wouldn't let them, and his brutal tactics kept Alqueda at bay, although they had plans to attempt to assinate Saddam, because with him out of the way, they could finally move into Iraq, like they have now.

Osama does not believe that women should be educated or have rights. Saddam increased the women's literacy rate in Iraq by 70% in just 15 years. Saddam opposed and waged war with Iran, who supports Alqueda.

I don't know if they had a non agression pact, but if they did it probably went something like "stay out of my country or I'll give you a tour of the royal meat grinder."

 

[hippie_hunter]

Yes. People from both parties openly acknowledge that. The bush administration acknowledges this more than anybody else. It's a big part of the reason Republicans are against a pull out.

I mean chaos going into Iran. I bet our government would be estatic over that.

I'm opposed to them standing in the middle. That's why I want them on the perimeter, outside of the civil war.

That's pretty much standing around in the middle still.

We tried and failed already at that. Everybody keeps saying work more closely. Get em to do this, get em to do that. It's not happening. It's not a realistic expectation. Sh.ite military officials don't give a crap if Iran sneaks weapons into the country, delivering them to sh.ite militias.

The reason why training the Iraqi government and army is failing is because we are giving half a damn about it and not providing the necessary materials for it.

That's kind of a contraditiction. If they are afraid of a break up of Iraq, then dividing Iraq is not going to qualm their fears. They will want control, so that they know for sure, they will get their share of the oil, or what they consider to be their share.

They just want the oil money. They know without the Baathists in power they aren't going to dominate Iraq like they used to, now they fear ironic persecution from the Kurds and Shiites. Calm the fear of persecution and give them the oil money and a major step will take place.

Equally distributed to each region, or to each individual? The Sh.ites will probably want it to each individual, and the Sunnis will probably want it distributed to each region equally. And they will fight over this.

Each region.

I believe they will intentionally get involved and promote the spill over. Iran is already doing it. The Sh.ites in Iraq are still furious about the Israeli attacks on Lebannon.

Iran is involved because Iran let themselves get involved. Syria is involved because Syria let themselves get involved. The only way that other potential spill-overs will occur is if Turkey and Saudi Arabia let themselves get involved.

 

[Spider-Bite]

I mean chaos going into Iran. I bet our government would be estatic over that.

I think that's a big fear. The Sh.ities in Iraq uniting with the Sh.ites in Iran, for an even larger more powerful sh.ite force giving money to terrorists

That's pretty much standing around in the middle still.

I think their death toll could be considerably lower each month.

The reason why training the Iraqi government and army is failing is because we are giving half a damn about it and not providing the necessary materials for it.

Were spending over a hundred billion there annually.

They just want the oil money. They know without the Baathists in power they aren't going to dominate Iraq like they used to, now they fear ironic persecution from the Kurds and Shiites. Calm the fear of persecution and give them the oil money and a major step will take place.

that is a good point.

Each region.

I can't say what I think is better, because I don't know, but I know that either way, somebody will feel shafted and retalliate.

Iran is involved because Iran let themselves get involved. Syria is involved because Syria let themselves get involved. The only way that other potential spill-overs will occur is if Turkey and Saudi Arabia let themselves get involved.

I see the sh.ites and sunnis eventually moving to attack Sunnis and sh.ites in other countries.