Austrailia Has It Right?

[The Senator]

I feel the same way about religion.

You feel offended that a picture of a cross or the Bible, or other symbolism was where you go,.. in most cases YEARS before you arrived? Get over yourself. It's like me moving to Pakistan and protesting the existance of a statue of Budda. That too is Arrogance of the sort that is hypocritical. You are demanding that folk respect your beliefs by trying to restrict the belief of others,... sick..

The problem is, our country is not founded on Christian principles. Nowhere in the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the defunct Articles of Confederation, or any other early governmental document is there a mention of the Bible or Christ explicitly as the sole religious icon for this country. Nowhere.

The difference with other countries, be it Pakistan (in which I do not think there would be a statue of Buddha considering it is a Muslim nation), Iran, Israel, etc., is that their governments explicitly endorse one religion and operate under the laws set forth by their religious doctrines. We do not operate under the laws established by the Bible, we are not all Christians, and therefore, people in this country have the right to be offended by religious symbols if they are so arrogantly displayed in front of court houses, public schools, and other government entities.

 

[danoyse]

Actually, you are missing the point.
The language is English, learn it to communicate with those that speak english.

Dont claim insulted when you see a picture of Jesus or something like that...that is our heritage, just like you have yours.

Immigrants should meld with our society....the society learning things from your heritage...taking it into its own...not BENDING to your will.

Actually, telling someone to worship Christ or get out is making someone bend to your will. I'm Catholic, but most of my friends growing up were Jewish. One lives in South Carolina now due a job transfer, and her neighbors are mystified why they don't have a Christmas tree. She's explained numerous times that they are Jewish, and the response was "But why don't you just get a Christmas tree??"

And that's ridiculous. They don't have to get a Christmas tree any more than their clueless neighbors have to get a menorah.

They actually couldn't find a preschool for their son that wasn't church-affliated. She asked if it would be all right for her son to bring in a Hanukah treat to their Christmas party so he would feel more included, they were told "Absolutely NOT."

They're Americans. They're not going to get out because their religion is different. They were born here, and they're entitled to celebrate their religion and not have another one forced on them.

 

[Varient]

I don't understand if you are saying that you should learn the language of the country you are in, of if they should learn your language in their country. Or both, I need sleep. Goodnight.

I'm saying that you don't ask for admittance to a building,.. then complain that you find the paint job inside offensive and I must buy the paint and change the color.

I'm saying that you don't come to a country western bar and insist we play acid rock.

The problem is, our country is not founded on Christian principles. Nowhere in the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the defunct Articles of Confederation, or any other early governmental document is there a mention of the Bible or Christ explicitly as the sole religious icon for this country. Nowhere.

The difference with other countries, be it Pakistan (in which I do not think there would be a statue of Buddha considering it is a Muslim nation), Iran, Israel, etc., is that their governments explicitly endorse one religion and operate under the laws set forth by their religious doctrines. We do not operate under the laws established by the Bible, we are not all Christians, and therefore, people in this country have the right to be offended by religious symbols if they are so arrogantly displayed in front of court houses, public schools, and other government entities.

Attack on giant Pakistan Buddha

The Buddha at Swat was only slightly damaged
Suspected pro-Taleban militants have tried to blow up an ancient carving of Buddha in north-west Pakistan.
The statue, thought to date from the second century BC, sustained only minimal damage in the attack near Manglore in remote Swat district.

The area has seen a rise in attacks on "un-Islamic" targets in recent months.

This is the first such attack in Pakistan and is reminiscent of the Taleban's 2001 destruction of the giant Buddhas at Bamiyan in Afghanistan.

Dynamite

Officials and witnesses in Swat said armed men arrived in the area on Monday night.

We heard the sound of drilling twice and then early Tuesday morning we heard two blasts

Villager Amir Khan


Afghan Buddha future unclear

"Militants drilled holes in the rock and filled them with dynamite and blew it up," provincial archaeology department official Aqleem Khan told Reuters news agency.

"The explosion damaged the upper part of the rock but there was no damage to the image itself."

And eyewitness, Shahid Khan, told the BBC that because of its location on a steep ridge the statue had been only slightly damaged. It is carved into a 40m (130-foot) high rock.

Local archaeology expert Professor Pervaiz Shaheen told the BBC that the Buddha statue in Swat valley was considered the largest in Asia, after the two Bamiyan Buddhas.

He said it was 2,200 years old. Swat valley is a centre of the ancient Gandhara civilization.

"They constructed similar smaller statues and figurines, dozens of which are still present in the area," Prof Shaheen said.

Swat has seen increased pro-Taleban activity in recent months, with the re-emergence of militant group Tehrik-e-Nifaz-e-Shariat-e-Mohammadi (TNSM) under new leader, Maulana Fazlullah.

Last week, militants blew up about 60 music, video and cosmetics stalls at a market in the valley after stall owners ignored warnings to close businesses deemed un-Islamic.

The world watched in shock in March 2001 as Afghanistan's then rulers destroyed the 6th-Century Bamiyan Buddhas. The Taleban said they were offensive to Islam.

On Topic:
I read too many Muslim complaining about christian symbols outside of the areas you mentioned while insisting we honor and respect theirs wherever we find them.

 

[Superman4ever]

Actually, you are missing the point.
The language is English, learn it to communicate with those that speak english.

Dont claim insulted when you see a picture of Jesus or something like that...that is our heritage, just like you have yours.

Immigrants should meld with our society....the society learning things from your heritage...taking it into its own...not BENDING to your will.

Actually you've missed the point. Either conform or BEND to our will or leave. That's exactly what Howard is saying, and maybe that's what you believe, but that's NOT -- no matter how much the religious whack jobs want to scream and shout -- what the founding fathers intended or endorsed. Howard's remarks contradict what he says later about living in harmony and accepting other people's beliefs.

He's talking about putting a picture of Christ in schools and in public governmental arenas, I don't know about Australia, but that's NOT what the founding fathers wanted.

The founding fathers (or most of them) were brilliant. They accepted EVERYONE, EVERY religion equally. They made a government SEPARATE from religion. Thomas Jefferson, James Madison BOTH studied the Qur'an to better understand law. Thomas Jefferson, learned Arabic.

They escaped religious intolerance, and understood, that they, as a new nation needed to work and accept other faiths, customs and people without cruel judgment, prejudice or set conditions so that they wouldn't make the same horrific mistakes as the Brits.

George Washington, in response to a Virginian bill that would lay taxes to support Christian worship, suggested ways for Muslims to “obtain proper relief”. Washington also stated he would welcome "Mohometans [Muslim]" to Mount Vernon if they were "good workmen".

 

[Superman4ever]

On Topic:
I read too many Muslim complaining about christian symbols outside of the areas you mentioned while insisting we honor and respect theirs wherever we find them.

That's a cheap as hell point (that is REALLY LOW), because the blowing up of the Buddhas in Afghanistan we're not only done by Al Qaeda/Taliban, which you've happily and ignorantly lumped ALL Muslims too, but also was an act that was condemned by the majority of the Muslim populous.

So, I can't see ANY point in your post but to flame. There is NO legitimacy to it.

 

[Nathan Petrelli]

Another thing. The majority of Australian's are Atheists. Not Christians. Very few people base their actions on their beliefs here, so I believe that the original post is someone who got bored and wanted to make a chain mail. John Howard has never said "Christianity" is Australia's religion.

 

[Varient]

That's a cheap as hell point (that is REALLY LOW), because the blowing up of the Buddhas in Afghanistan we're not only done by Al Qaeda/Taliban, which you've happily and ignorantly lumped ALL Muslims too, but also was an act that was condemned by the majority of the Muslim populous.

So, I can't see ANY point in your post but to flame. There is NO legitimacy to it.

??
Two points.

One: The "Blowing up of Budda" article was a direct answer to someone else stating that there are no Budda's in Pakistan. Period. No attempt was made to slam Muslims in showing proof that there are Buddas in Pakistan.

Two: If I meant "ALL" Muslims,... I'da said ALL MUSLIMS. I'm in Southern California where there are SOME muslims complaining about EVERYTHING christian,.. while they break our laws like forcing parts of our public school on the sly to seperate the children by sex and add Koran study @ the elementary school level and forcing pauses for the entire school for the prayer to Mecca.

Don't argue with me,.. look it up. These guys are howling about seeing a cross while they subvert our school systems. When they got caught THEY LIED ABOUT IT ALL expecting to be believed - but didn't count on a couple of substitute teachers stepping forward to verify the original charges.

They made one attempt to defend their actions by saying we have christian schools and that backfired since the christian schools we have are not public.

In this case we have someone coming in from the outside demanding we change how we do things while they make no effort to conform to our laws.

Tsk.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

I like his attitude personally.

you like his attitude?
what exactly is there to like in a man that advocates spying on Mosques while touting religious acceptance and tolerance? is that not hugely hypocritical?
is it not hypocrisy for a man to talk about the obligation of immigrants to learn the language while I'm sure he doesn't know how to speak the native tongue of the people of the Australian outback?
this veiled xenophobia is ridiculous.
one example in Mexico, we have many Chinese immigrants, most of them keep to their own communities and speak mostly Chinese and manage on gestures and broken spanish, sometimes they rely on their children to translate.

I

DON'T

CARE.

they run businesses and play a part in their societies, big whoop I don't care.
why are people so hung up on this "I accept your culture, but leave it at the door" mentality?
so stupid.

 

[bell110]

I don't he's saying that if you don't "bend" to our will, then we'll kick you out. I read it as him saying if you don't want to live by our rules, then you are more than welcome to leave. If they want to live by Islamic law, move to an Islamic country.

I don't mind if people talk their own language, but don't get upset with me if I can't understand you.

I do, however, totally disagree with his religion statements. How would christians feel if their kids teacher was hanging up Islamic symbols around the classroom? Probably not very good.

 

[Superman4ever]

you like his attitude?
what exactly is there to like in a man that advocates spying on Mosques while touting religious acceptance and tolerance? is that not hugely hypocritical?
is it not hypocrisy for a man to talk about the obligation of immigrants to learn the language while I'm sure he doesn't know how to speak the native tongue of the people of the Australian outback?
this veiled xenophobia is ridiculous.
one example in Mexico, we have many Chinese immigrants, most of them keep to their own communities and speak mostly Chinese and manage on gestures and broken spanish, sometimes they rely on their children to translate.

I

DON'T

CARE.

they run businesses and play a part in their societies, big whoop I don't care.
why are people so hung up on this "I accept your culture, but leave it at the door" mentality?
so stupid.

Bravo!

 

[psychocheeseman]

good to see some well thought out posts like

What is more worrisome, to me anyway, is that some people here in the US think it's OK to hold ANYONE (right now its Muslim men) indefinitely without due process. This is just a simple step to totalitarianism. If you think that this procedure ONLY and exclusively applies to terr'rrists you are gravely mistaken. That is the problem with these nuts. They spew not only hate, but fear. The type of fear that elicits inhumane policy. Who would have EVER in their wildest dreams, 100, 50, or even 20 years ago would have believed that the United States of America would allow and endorse torture in the false name of "national security".

and

you like his attitude?
what exactly is there to like in a man that advocates spying on Mosques while touting religious acceptance and tolerance? is that not hugely hypocritical?
is it not hypocrisy for a man to talk about the obligation of immigrants to learn the language while I'm sure he doesn't know how to speak the native tongue of the people of the Australian outback?
this veiled xenophobia is ridiculous.
one example in Mexico, we have many Chinese immigrants, most of them keep to their own communities and speak mostly Chinese and manage on gestures and broken spanish, sometimes they rely on their children to translate.

I

DON'T

CARE.

they run businesses and play a part in their societies.

But

"Learn English or get out" is actually a part of the Citizens test now, you must learn and speak English to obtain your Australian Citizenship, you also need to know the Australian anthem, which is a bit stupid. I don't know it, or care to learn it myself.

that's quite different to being a law to deport people who can't speak English. Permanent residency doesn't have such stringent rules from memory.

If you have lived in a multi-race community, then like me, you would have experienced the frustration of being yelled at in Japanese or any other language because they cannot speak English, the language of the country they live in.

wait... how did you know that's why they where yelling at you if you couldn't understand them?
and no that has never happened to me.

Another thing. The majority of Australian's are Atheists. Not Christians. Very few people base their actions on their beliefs here, so I believe that the original post is someone who got bored and wanted to make a chain mail. John Howard has never said "Christianity" is Australia's religion.

Actually it's around 65% Christian, it's taught in schools over here (AS TRUTH?!?!?!?)... But for the most part people don't take it as seriously as they seem to in the US. (weekly attendance of church is only around 7.5%)

 

[Jake Cassidy]

Nathan Petrelli, the majority of Australians are not Aetheist. Personally, I wasn't raised with any religion and I think that's the same for a lot of us. We, generally, just don't put a lot of emphasis on religion in Australia.

I see no problem with having people learn English if they want to live in a English speaking country. It's for their benefit as well.

Anyway, there should be only 1 rule to live in Australia. If you don't like AC/DC, get the **** out. t:

 

[fifthfiend]

which not only included white only immigrants(for the most part) but also actively attempted genocide against the native inhabitants -poisoning water supplies, not punishing squatters for culling, and the more civil attempts to breed the black out of them.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Standard White ****head Mother****er policy across the ages.

Go to new country and murder every brownskinned mother****er they can get their hands on. Then a hundred years later when some brownskinned folks show up from elsewhere turn around and cry "GET LOST FOREIGNER, THIS COUNTRY IS FOR ITS NATIVES!"

 

[That'ssuper!]

Since Australia should follow an idea of separate church and state. Although, he discusses the complaints and offence of having Christian references in government, I don't think he's endorsing the idea that they refer to the historical contributions that these ideas left and founded for the government. If it were a Greek god or a Persian god which influenced the development I think it all would be treated equally and left as a reference to honor that their believes contributed not to say it is law to believe in them.

I only think there needs to be an official language so that the government doesn't need to extend uneccessary expense in hiring interpreters to translate for immigrants. Only official bussiness with government like taxes, insurance, licensing should be mandated to be in English in order to maintain civil order in certain ordinances.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

Another thing. The majority of Australian's are Atheists. Not Christians. Very few people base their actions on their beliefs here, so I believe that the original post is someone who got bored and wanted to make a chain mail. John Howard has never said "Christianity" is Australia's religion.

If this is true,then they must not be saying this because I've never heard anything like this from Australia. Other than they want to be part of the USA.

 

[hippie_hunter]

While Howard does take it a little too far, he does have a point.

If a person from another country intends to move to a country like Spain, France, the United States, China or whatever, they should learn the language. They should at least know the customs and whatnot of the country they intend to live in.

As for the religion thing, as an athiest, I do realise that this nation is a Christian majority and even though the Founding Fathers weren't exactly the bible humpers some like to make them out to be, there are some Christian roots in the United States. I'm not going to get all pissy whenever I see the Ten Commandments or say the Pledge of Allegiance. I'm not being forced to practice Christianity with such phrases and imagery, and I don't want to press my faith onto others.

 

[Jake Cassidy]

If this is true,then they must not be saying this because I've never heard anything like this from Australia. Other than they want to be part of the USA.

Why would we want that? It'd be a step down for us. t:

 

[Mr Sparkle]

One of the places I'm looking to emigrate to si Australia, so I hope that it's not as racist as some people have told me it is.

 

[Superman4ever]

I've only heard wonderful things about Australia. Is this hate for Muslims common?

 

[UltimateJustin]

I've heard male Australians are racist especially toward any outsiders, even Americans, who are great. But on the other side of the equation, I heard that large groups of the females there have an interest in foreigners. My black friend who is a MARINE said he got more action in Australia than he did in Cali Cal.

 

[Varient]

Well,...
It's a mixed bag.

During the Viet Nam War Era,.. My father mentioned that it was a racist place to visit. Everything I read about it goes to extremes either way.
As in Either they accept difference with open arms,.... or they bestow instant second-class citizenship on anyone who's not white.

I guess if I really want to know, I must go for myself.

V.

 

[Jake Cassidy]

edit

 

[Jake Cassidy]

One of the places I'm looking to emigrate to si Australia, so I hope that it's not as racist as some people have told me it is.

Don't worry, it's not that bad.

Just stay away from a place called Cronulla.

 

[Jake Cassidy]

UltimateJustin. We don't, generally, hate Americans. We just find you guys really strange.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

Australia is more honest,I think America is the same way..but they smile..they lie through their teeth. I also hear Australia's been in a drought for years now.