Character Analysis of the Burton/Schumacher films...

[returntovoid]

I could see the character development for Bruce in the first two movies but while the 3rd movie was terrible, there was a disconnect for me between Burton's movies and Schumacher. Burton should definitely be appreciated for his work on Batman because he help set up in many ways the approach that Nolan took.

Agreed.

There is a character development between the Tim Burton films but mostly people miss the point of it as it's not overtly explained in the films instead more visually because that's Burton's style of film-making.

The Burton films opened the door for the Nolan films which are different in their own way but still dark.

General film/tv audiences knew Batman by the campy 60's tv show and the Super-friends unlike the comic book fans that knew he was a dark character that got camped up. Then Burton's dark Batman '89 showed them how dark Batman really is although they were not used to it, then the even more darker Batman Returns came out that outraged audiences on how mature/adult Batman really is as they thought of him as a kids character. Then Schumacher films camped it all up and no one saw the dark Batman until the Nolan films but the cartoon BTAS was the only other Batman thing during the time of the Schumacher films that was dark.

 

[GothamAlleys]

The Burton films opened the door for the Nolan films which are different in their own way but still dark.

Absolutely- Thats why Nolan loves them and always speaks so highly of them, calling it BRILLIANT and extraordinary in multiple interviews and even directly acknowledging its impact

Nolan: The 1989 Batman film that Tim Burton did, that tone has defined comic book movies (Box Office Mojo interview)

And thats why he uses plenty of ideas that were developed for Burton's movies like the black makeup on the eyes, sculpted expression on the mask, bat voice or the idea of the suit being a black armor which stemed out of Ringwood's dislike for Batman's comic book costume

 

[returntovoid]

Absolutely- Thats why Nolan loves them and always speaks so highly of them, calling it BRILLIANT and extraordinary in multiple interviews and even directly acknowledging its impact

I like the fact that both Nolan and Burton have a mutual liking/respect for each others Batman films. All Nolanites and Burtonites should be like that but unfortunately it's recently been very heated on the forums.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I like the fact that both Nolan and Burton have a mutual liking/respect for each others Batman films. All Nolanites and Burtonites should be like that but unfortunately it's recently been very heated on the forums.

its perfectly fine not to like a movie, but one should also recognize its achievements and pluses. Even if one hates Burton's movies with passion, theres no denying that the art of visual narrative is phenomenal. The use of light on the eyes, the Gothic designs and the tortured soul whos a side, shadowy character (aka by definition a Gothic character in literature) are indeed very well done. Then theres stuff like the technical things, like the universally applauded score, or editing (made by Ray Lovejoy whos a brilliant editor who worked with Stanley Kubrick and Jim Cameron among others) etc. After all, theres a reason why Nolan avoids talking about Schumacher's movies yet calls Burton's movies Extraordinary and Brilliant
Hate it or love it, theres no denying that visually the movie is a wonder and celebration of art and the story pays tribute to the Gothic stories, and good things should be acknowledged.

Objectivity is the key. For example, I HATE, HATE Schumacher's movies with passion, but I acknowledge its good sides - the designs, even tho I dislike the pink circus Gotham and the bat outfits, are indeed good designs (just wrong choices and bad decisions, but as designs in themselves, theyre fine, after all, theyre made by talented designers), I acknowledge tat the score is well written and good and so on. ANother example: I acknowledge that Godfather is a masterpiece, yet I dont like the movie at all. Its just not my thing, but that doesnt mean I cant look at it like an adult and objective person and admit that from screenwriting and filmaking POV, its a brilliant movie. Just not my thing. And on the other side of the coin, I absolutely love Alien 3 even tho the script is absolutely terrible and littered with more plotholes throughout and inconsistencies that it completely collapses. Yet its one of the favorite movies of all time

Be respectful, be objective and give the credit where the credit's due, and then life is easier and we know that we're talking to intelligent person, not an ear covering immature kid at mind. What I personally truly dislike are blind, close minded haters

 

[returntovoid]

its perfectly fine not to like a movie, but one should also recognize its achievements and pluses. Even if one hates Burton's movies with passion, theres no denying that the art of visual narrative is phenomenal. The use of light on the eyes, the Gothic designs and the tortured soul whos a side, shadowy character (aka by definition a Gothic character in literature) are indeed very well done. Then theres stuff like the technical things, like the universally applauded score, or editing (made by Ray Lovejoy whos a brilliant editor who worked with Stanley Kubrick and Jim Cameron among others) etc. After all, theres a reason why Nolan avoids talking about Schumacher's movies yet calls Burton's movies Extraordinary and Brilliant
Hate it or love it, theres no denying that visually the movie is a wonder and celebration of art, and good things should be acknowledged.

Objectivity is the key. For example, I HATE, HATE Schumacher's movies with passion, but I acknowledge its good sides - the designs, even tho I dislike the pink circus Gotham and the bat outfits, are indeed good designs (just wrong choices and bad decisions, but as designs in themselves, theyre fine, after all, theyre made by talented designers), I acknowledge tat the score is well written and good and so on. ANother example: I acknowledge that Godfather is a masterpiece, yet I dont like the movie at all. Its just not my thing, but that doesnt mean I cant look at it like an adult and objective person and admit that from screenwriting and filmaking POV, its a brilliant movie. Just not my thing. And on the other side of the coin, I absolutely love Alien 3 even tho the script is absolutely terrible and littered with more plotholes throughout and inconsistencies that it completely collapses. Yet its one of the favorite movies of all time

Be respectful, be objective and give the credit where the credit's due, and then life is easier. What I personally hate are blind, close minded haters

Exactly, I mean I don't like Star Wars at all but I can't deny that it pushed the boundaries for visual effects, created an extraordinary mythology and was an epic space-opera. I would say something similar on Avatar.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Just in case someone doesnt know much about art, in a pill about expressionism: Expressionism is a mode of representation whereby internal feelings and abstract concepts are displayed externally, often at the expense of realism and artistic convention. Expressionist art usually has a surreal or fantastic quality to it, presenting distorted aesthetics through which the true nature of a thing is belied in its external countenance (Catwoman's patchy suit - Selina's patchy and fragmented personality, Batman's suit - his inner darkness and psychosis, the Gothic look of Gotham with gargoyles - the dark and evil nature of the city, etc). In narrative terms, expressionist films were often preoccupied with dark subject matter such as evil and madness (Keaton's Batman, Joker, Catwoman = madness, Penguin-evil)

Burton: “It was the strength and simplicity that I really loved about the expressionists’ work. That and the fairy-tale element.”

Burton's Batman movies are a mix of expressionism, Gothic literature (which features characters with psychological and physical terror and mystery), fairy tale, the art of silent movies, Opera and conventional filmmaking (all of those confirmed by Burton)

So again, in the visual storytelling and design, those movies are jewels. And if youre into art, its simply a feast

 

[returntovoid]

Just in case someone doesnt know much about art, in a pill about expressionism: Expressionism is a mode of representation whereby internal feelings and abstract concepts are displayed externally, often at the expense of realism and artistic convention. Expressionist art usually has a surreal or fantastic quality to it, presenting distorted aesthetics through which the true nature of a thing is belied in its external countenance (Catwoman's patchy suit - Selina's patchy and fragmented personality, Batman's suit - his inner darkness and psychosis, the Gothic look of Gotham with gargoyles - the dark and evil nature of the city, etc). In narrative terms, expressionist films were often preoccupied with dark subject matter such as evil and madness (Keaton's Batman, Joker, Catwoman = madness, Penguin-evil)

Burton: “It was the strength and simplicity that I really loved about the expressionists’ work. That and the fairy-tale element.”

Burton's Batman movies are a mix of expressionism, Gothic literature (which features characters with psychological and physical terror and mystery), fairy tale, the art of silent movies, Opera and conventional filmmaking (all of those confirmed by Burton)

So again, in the visual storytelling and design, those movies are jewels. And if youre into art, its simply a feast

I like Expressionistic/surrealistic art, I really want to check out more films of that ilk.

Would you recommend some other films like that???

 

[GothamAlleys]

Theres nothing else like that to that extent (a conventional movie with so much of those elements), thats what makes Burton great - he basically created his own genre, he resurrected expressionist movies by mixing them with mainstream formula

 

[RustyCage]

I like Expressionistic/surrealistic art, I really want to check out more films of that ilk.

Would you recommend some other films like that???

Basically anything by Burton. I recently watched Coraline, really enjoyed that. He makes a lot of great stuff, and I think his storytelling (with the exception of Alice) has vastly improved since the Batman films. Dunno if anyone will agree with me there.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Btw, heres one of many examples of Schumacher getting all worked up when someone criticizes B&R. Its already a 3rd interview that I found in which he gets angry when someone mentions that people didnt like his Batman movies. From the new People January 2011

So how do you feel now about what Batman And Robin did to your reputation as a filmmaker – do you think you suffered, in the public eye?

Did I suffer in the public eye?

Well do you feel that your reputation was damaged? Because the film got a mighty battering, and inevitably a lot of criticism was aimed at you as director. Do you understand what I mean?

No. (pause) You mean that all my other movies would be meaningless?

No…

You mean that I would be judged on one misstep?

No, you were saying after that film that you wanted…

You asked if I think my reputation was damaged. And my question to you is, because I made one film that wasn’t as popular as the other ones?

But it was enormously unpopular, wasn’t it.

(pause) Maybe to you, I don’t know.

Do you feel…

You know what it feels like? It feels that you’ve made a decision and you want me to agree with it.

That’s not true.

I will if you want…


Im sorry but this guy is really screwed up. He also often praises the heck out of Forever

 

[GothamAlleys]

Btw, heres one of many examples of Schumacher getting all worked up when someone criticizes B&R. Its already a 3rd interview that I found in which he gets angry when someone mentions that people didnt like his Batman movies. From sabotagetimes.com

So how do you feel now about what Batman And Robin did to your reputation as a filmmaker – do you think you suffered, in the public eye?

Did I suffer in the public eye?

Well do you feel that your reputation was damaged? Because the film got a mighty battering, and inevitably a lot of criticism was aimed at you as director. Do you understand what I mean?

No. (pause) You mean that all my other movies would be meaningless?

No…

You mean that I would be judged on one misstep?

No, you were saying after that film that you wanted…

You asked if I think my reputation was damaged. And my question to you is, because I made one film that wasn’t as popular as the other ones?

But it was enormously unpopular, wasn’t it.

(pause) Maybe to you, I don’t know.

Do you feel…

You know what it feels like? It feels that you’ve made a decision and you want me to agree with it.

That’s not true.

I will if you want…


Another example from contactmusic.com

Q: How did you feel about the terrible critical reception of "Batman and Robin"?

A: Oh, grow up! It's a "Batman" movie. It's seven years ago!

Im sorry but this guy is really screwed up. He also often praises the heck out of Forever

 

[Ponyboy]

Basically anything by Burton. I recently watched Coraline, really enjoyed that. He makes a lot of great stuff, and I think his storytelling (with the exception of Alice) has vastly improved since the Batman films. Dunno if anyone will agree with me there.

Tim Burton didn't have anything to do with Coraline, did he?

 

[RustyCage]

Tim Burton didn't have anything to do with Coraline, did he?

I just double checked, seems you're right. I would have sworn I saw his name on it.

Maybe it's because the director also did Nightmare Before Christmas, I must have thought they paired up again. Sorry lol

 

[Spoonman]

Btw, heres one of many examples of Schumacher getting all worked up when someone criticizes B&R. Its already a 3rd interview that I found in which he gets angry when someone mentions that people didnt like his Batman movies. From sabotagetimes.com

So how do you feel now about what Batman And Robin did to your reputation as a filmmaker – do you think you suffered, in the public eye?

Did I suffer in the public eye?

Well do you feel that your reputation was damaged? Because the film got a mighty battering, and inevitably a lot of criticism was aimed at you as director. Do you understand what I mean?

No. (pause) You mean that all my other movies would be meaningless?

No…

You mean that I would be judged on one misstep?

No, you were saying after that film that you wanted…

You asked if I think my reputation was damaged. And my question to you is, because I made one film that wasn’t as popular as the other ones?

But it was enormously unpopular, wasn’t it.

(pause) Maybe to you, I don’t know.

Do you feel…

You know what it feels like? It feels that you’ve made a decision and you want me to agree with it.

That’s not true.

I will if you want…


Another example from contactmusic.com

Q: How did you feel about the terrible critical reception of "Batman and Robin"?

A: Oh, grow up! It's a "Batman" movie. It's seven years ago!

Im sorry but this guy is really screwed up. He also often praises the heck out of Forever

Not trying to defend him or anything, but it should be noted that that "January 2011 interview" is actually from 2000 (as the inteviewer says in his site), the guy has cooled off a lot about the B&R subject in subsequent years as seen in many other interviews, his appollogy from the SE DVD is from 2005 for example. I get your point but I also think its fair to mention it.

Edited to include another sniptset of the interview were JS reflects a bit more of the situation, i found this part very interesting.

"
So therefore, what happens, when you’ve been lucky enough to have big success, which I’ve been lucky enough to have, is that suddenly, everything inside you and everything around you rushes to protect that. And you can see it happen with movie stars and record stars and anyone who’s had success. The pressure is to hold the status of it. Hold it; don’t let it go, you know. If you’re on the A List, don’t ever not be on the A List. And if you’re Number One at something, don’t ever be Number Two… and then, somehow you fall. And the truth is, the only reason you get successful is by taking risks. And what happens is, success breeds conservatism. And repetition. Because ‘Oh, they loved that, so I’ll do it again.’ So, yes, it was very interesting, the point you brought up, because it sort of went like this: I was going along and my career was just doing great, and it was building and building and building, and then Falling Down was like, Big Hero. Then The Client: Bigger Hero. Then Batman Forever: BIIIIIG HERO! Then A Time To Kill: BIGGEST HERO OF THEM ALL! Batman and Robin: Scum."

 

[GothamAlleys]

Well the second snippet is from 2004. I also have newer interviews where he claims only "some" people didnt like B&R. Hes nice when interviewed for WB releases like Anthology, but as you can see he gets majorily offended when someone says something bad about his precious B&R

 

[Spoonman]

Well the second snippet is from 2004. I also have newer interviews where he claims only "some" people didnt like B&R. Hes nice when interviewed for WB releases like Anthology, but as you can see he gets majorily offended when someone says something bad about his precious B&R

Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I dont get that feeling, I continued reading that interview from 2000 (which i thank you for letting me discover it) all the way till the end and he seemed very calm and reflective of the subject as the chat went on, and recognizes his misstep, so I disagree with your comments really, I guess thats what someone gets when is partially quouted, I actually ended up seeing the interview at whole different light after I read it all.

See the edit of my last post to check and example of what I liked from the interview.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I guess it depends on interpretation. The way I see it collectively reading his interviews is that

1. He thinks Batman is just a silly Batman and people shouldnt care much
2. Everybody in the world adored Forever and some people didnt like B&R's light direction

Then add to that his fights with Keaton and Kilmer and I think calling him a "troubled" person with major attitude isnt that far fetched and theres something to it

 

[Spoonman]

Again, not trying to defend him from his missteps but I guess we also have to put things in perspective, the dude was in meetings with freaking chain stores and toy companies, ( I mean, Taco Bell, WTF lol!) If management at WB at that time had such an attitude, I would be almost hopeless as a director for they to give me a lot of money to make a dark and great batfilm. I am actually thankful for the change in management vision / people at WB because they now actually give a diretor like Nolan money and creative control to make a great movie and not a Toy comercial. WB has learned their lesson that they can make a great movie and they will sell toys anyway.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I agree, Im just saying that Schumacher doesnt take criticism well and thats evidenced by his constant announcements about how Forever was adored by everyone (he even assumes everyone loves it while giving his matter-of-fact apology) and when someone says that B&R was bad then hes met with comments like "grow up, get a life, go out" among others

 

[GothamAlleys]

I meant more physically... Maybe he's not as tan or something.

It may also be that Bruce has a streak of grey on the sides in Returns. That was added since Micheal from the interviews in 92 doesnt have em

 

[Two-Face]

We may not like Forever but it had one of the best opening sequence. I didn't like how Schumacher did Two-Face but I can enjoy it can as a popcorn movie. (I can't watch B&R like I can with Forever) cos cast in Forever did great for what was given) If I want to watch serious movies I put on BB/TDK.

 

[Spoonman]

^I quite enjoy Forever every now and then really, on the other hand B&R I can not stand in any shape or form.

 

[El Payaso]

Yes. Entertainment is not one of B Forever's problems.

 

[Gunga Diner]

its perfectly fine not to like a movie, but one should also recognize its achievements and pluses. Even if one hates Burton's movies with passion, theres no denying that the art of visual narrative is phenomenal. The use of light on the eyes, the Gothic designs and the tortured soul whos a side, shadowy character (aka by definition a Gothic character in literature) are indeed very well done. Then theres stuff like the technical things, like the universally applauded score, or editing (made by Ray Lovejoy whos a brilliant editor who worked with Stanley Kubrick and Jim Cameron among others) etc. After all, theres a reason why Nolan avoids talking about Schumacher's movies yet calls Burton's movies Extraordinary and Brilliant
Hate it or love it, theres no denying that visually the movie is a wonder and celebration of art and the story pays tribute to the Gothic stories, and good things should be acknowledged.

Objectivity is the key. For example, I HATE, HATE Schumacher's movies with passion, but I acknowledge its good sides - the designs, even tho I dislike the pink circus Gotham and the bat outfits, are indeed good designs (just wrong choices and bad decisions, but as designs in themselves, theyre fine, after all, theyre made by talented designers), I acknowledge tat the score is well written and good and so on. ANother example: I acknowledge that Godfather is a masterpiece, yet I dont like the movie at all. Its just not my thing, but that doesnt mean I cant look at it like an adult and objective person and admit that from screenwriting and filmaking POV, its a brilliant movie. Just not my thing. And on the other side of the coin, I absolutely love Alien 3 even tho the script is absolutely terrible and littered with more plotholes throughout and inconsistencies that it completely collapses. Yet its one of the favorite movies of all time

Be respectful, be objective and give the credit where the credit's due, and then life is easier and we know that we're talking to intelligent person, not an ear covering immature kid at mind. What I personally truly dislike are blind, close minded haters

Do you have a link for Nolan getting interviewed about the Burton movies? I've never heard him comment on them.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Do you have a link for Nolan getting interviewed about the Burton movies? I've never heard him comment on them.

Everything is collected and referenced here - http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2010/11/their-comments-on-others-work.html