Do You Think The X-Men Franchise Was Overshadowed by The OG Spider-man Films & The MCU?

[Marvel united]

Perhaps First Class should have been a hard reboot.

That said, what would Matthew Vaughn had done differently if his X-men: First Class was an actual reboot? Because even if his film was in continuity with the previous trilogy, that didn't stop him from:

Putting the X-men in colourful costumes;
Having a different set of "First Class" than what Singer committed on film (X1's "Cyclops, Storm and Jean were some of my first students");
Having Mystique as Xavier's half sister;
Showing that Charles and Erik met at a later age;
Saying that Beast invented Cerebro;
Telling us that Professor X is aware that Magneto owns a telepathy-blocking helmet;
(Re)-Introducing a second set of Moira and Emma;
Among many others.

Even after being allowed all those changes, Vaughn's film barely beat X1's opening weekend from eleven years prior (X1's $54Mil vs. FC's $55Mil. If inflation is in play X1 wipes the floor with FC). Vaughn's film, with all the freedom he was afforded, also has the lowest Domestic cume out of any "X-men" titled movie, beating only The Wolverine and Dark Phoenix.

(Ok so if Vaughn did actually film a reboot, unencumbered by the previous trilogy, he would not have been allowed to do a shot-for-shot recreation of young Erik's Auschwitz origin. So what would deleting that scene from First Class, which would then allow Vaughn to call his film a hard reboot, accomplish?)

If First Class was a complete reboot set in the 60s then Vaughn could've used the original 5 instead of Havok, Banshee, Darwin etc and then brought in Storm, Colossus and Nightcrawler in X2 facing off against the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.

First Class stay exactly as it is but with the O5 instead of the random mutants and XFC2 could've been all about the X-Men as a team.

 

[Iceman]

Dr Strange’s ending is something like that. It’s not really action, more beating the villain with a trick.

 

[EnDz0n3]

If First Class was a complete reboot set in the 60s then Vaughn could've used the original 5 instead of Havok, Banshee, Darwin etc and then brought in Storm, Colossus and Nightcrawler in X2 facing off against the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.

First Class stay exactly as it is but with the O5 instead of the random mutants and XFC2 could've been all about the X-Men as a team.

We could sit here 9 years later and say that would be something Vaughn would do but the facts don't line up with any of that wishful thinking. As I've said before Vaughn planned his FC2 to star the same First Class members, Banshee, Beast and Havok (with the new addition only being Wolverine). Vaughn has also lovingly referred to that group as "my X-men." And if the defence is Vaughn would only use Banshee, Beast and Havok in his sequel because that's what continuity called for based on his previous film, then you don't know what Vaughn's relationship with continuity is (hint: he has no problem breaking it).

So no, there's no evidence to suggest Vaughn would have felt any sense of fealty to the original source material and there's no suggestion whatsoever he would have had the O5 and then the Giant-Sized X-men team in his sequel.

 

[Drizzle]

I never really bought the conflict in Civil War, the whole final fight relies on too much contrivance in getting to that point, namely the camera that just happened to be in the middle of a deserted road to capture Bucky killing Starks parents perfectly doesnt sit right.

Regardless of how they get to the conflict, it's still not a bombastic final battle like most superhero films from your original point.

 

[Marvel united]

Ki

We could sit here 9 years later and say that would be something Vaughn would do but the facts don't line up with any of that wishful thinking. As I've said before Vaughn planned his FC2 to star the same First Class members, Banshee, Beast and Havok (with the new addition only being Wolverine). Vaughn has also lovingly referred to that group as "my X-men." And if the defence is Vaughn would only use Banshee, Beast and Havok in his sequel because that's what continuity called for based on his previous film, then you don't know what Vaughn's relationship with continuity is (hint: he has no problem breaking it).

So no, there's no evidence to suggest Vaughn would have felt any sense of fealty to the original source material and there's no suggestion whatsoever he would have had the O5 and then the Giant-Sized X-men team in his sequel.

To be fair, I don't Vaughn's mindset would have been the same had he been given the keys to make whatever he wanted. He had to make a prquel to the OT even if all the details didn't lineup.

I'm not sure Havok, Banshee, Darwin and Angel Salvadore would've been our leading X-Men if he had access to Cyclops, Storm, Colossus etc from jump

 

[Zarex]

We could sit here 9 years later and say that would be something Vaughn would do but the facts don't line up with any of that wishful thinking. As I've said before Vaughn planned his FC2 to star the same First Class members, Banshee, Beast and Havok (with the new addition only being Wolverine). Vaughn has also lovingly referred to that group as "my X-men." And if the defence is Vaughn would only use Banshee, Beast and Havok in his sequel because that's what continuity called for based on his previous film, then you don't know what Vaughn's relationship with continuity is (hint: he has no problem breaking it).

So no, there's no evidence to suggest Vaughn would have felt any sense of fealty to the original source material and there's no suggestion whatsoever he would have had the O5 and then the Giant-Sized X-men team in his sequel.

I didn't LOVE the FC crew, but I probably would have preferred Vaughn's version to what we got. I didn't care at all for the decade jumps and I think the series would have been better if they remained in the sixties. We could have explored Erik and Charles actually being "Old friends" instead of two fellas that spent a couple of days together over 4 decades.

 

[Herofan]

If First Class was a complete reboot set in the 60s then Vaughn could've used the original 5 instead of Havok, Banshee, Darwin etc

I did like Banshee, including his effects (I think he was the only new mutant with interesting powers/effects), but there wasn't a whole lot to him, other characters could have been better.

Maybe I'm paranoid but using Havok seemed to be really further sticking the finger to Cyclops fans, not only was Cyclops already the (not-really-leader) leader we barely got to see or care about but he was was also, we learn/realize, following in his brother's footsteps.

Just setting a prequel in the '80s (soon after Wolverine) would have allowed seeing Storm, Cyclops, Jean but not Iceman or Angel or the Charles/Magneto friendship, a reboot would have allowed all of that.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Ki

To be fair, I don't Vaughn's mindset would have been the same had he been given the keys to make whatever he wanted. He had to make a prquel to the OT even if all the details didn't lineup.

I'll give you that. Vaughn's X-men First Class would *not have been the same film* had he been given full rein. How different, who knows? Would it have been better? Or worse?

I'm not sure Havok, Banshee, Darwin and Angel Salvadore would've been our leading X-Men if he had access to Cyclops, Storm, Colossus etc from jump

Do we know that he even likes those characters? Has he talked about any of them? There's no proof that he does (like them) and no proof that he has (talked about them).

I didn't LOVE the FC crew, but I probably would have preferred Vaughn's version to what we got. I didn't care at all for the decade jumps and I think the series would have been better if they remained in the sixties. We could have explored Erik and Charles actually being "Old friends" instead of two fellas that spent a couple of days together over 4 decades.

Vaughn's sequel to First Class would've decade jumped as well: "That’s one of the reasons I didn’t continue, because they didn’t listen to me. My plan was 'First Class,' then second film was new young Wolverine in the 70’s to continue those characters, my version of the X-Men." Besides, Erik and Charles only being friends for only a couple of days was in Vaughn's own First Class, unless there's proof somewhere that plot point was forced upon him by Fox.

 

[psylockolussus]

Vaughn's reboot of the X-Men could have been like the TASM of the series. Imagine if First Class was the reboot and they couldn't use the original cast to return because they already rebooted the franchise/continuity and the films were underperforming at the boX office.

 

[TheVileOne]

X-Men film franchise was hampered by bad studio executives and creative incompetence. And Simon Kinberg.

 

[Iceman]

X-Men film franchise was hampered by bad studio executives and creative incompetence. And Simon Kinberg.

Yeah. Rothman ruined the early momentum by putting a hit out on X3, while also making it very difficult for the first 2 films to achieve what they did (with large and very late budget cuts). It was all in spite of him rather than due to him. Kinberg has been a weight on the franchise for a long time too.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Fox should have offered the directing job to Singer the moment they knew X2 was gonna be a hit. That is to say, they should have signed Singer, they should have signed the cast before X2's release.

Their inability to do that gave WB an opening to offer a then-hot director a "dream job." That then gave that director an opportunity to steal actors. Their inability to sign the cast before X2's blockbuster status, increased the asking price of the actors, which then blew up the film's budget. In 2006, X3 had the highest budget out of any movie ever. Think about that.

 

[Iceman]

True and Marvel protect against that by having super-long term deals with their actors.

 

[Drizzle]

Fox should have offered the directing job to Singer the moment they knew X2 was gonna be a hit. That is to say, they should have signed Singer, they should have signed the cast before X2's release.

Their inability to do that gave WB an opening to offer a then-hot director a "dream job." That then gave that director an opportunity to steal actors. Their inability to sign the cast before X2's blockbuster status, increased the asking price of the actors, which then blew up the film's budget. In 2006, X3 had the highest budget out of any movie ever. Think about that.

In perspective, that kind of explains why X3 was such a short movie. They didn't have the budget to make it to two hours.

 

[The Batman]

I think people totally overhype just how much of a role X-Men 1 had in kickstarting the current comic book craze.

Like most successful 70's-90's CBMs, it was successful, but its success didn't lead to a huge craze.

IMO, What really led to what we have now was Sam Raimi's Spider-Man making 100+ million dollars in its opening weekend, reminding people that you can make "Comic booky" superhero films smash hits. Raimi's Spidey has more influence than Singer's X-Men ever did.

From 2000-2007, The X-Men were the second biggest CBM series, but in hindsight, that's pretty much due to lack of real competition. As soon as we got CBMs that matched the scale, quality and/or tone of the Raimi films, the Fox-style X-Men films fell down the totem pole.

Deadpool is easily the greatest success story of the later era Fox X-Films, and it did so largely by being the things Singer X-Men wasn't.

 

[Ctfxcwatcher]

I think people totally overhype just how much of a role X-Men 1 had in kickstarting the current comic book craze.

Like most successful 70's-90's CBMs, it was successful, but its success didn't lead to a huge craze.

IMO, What really led to what we have now was Sam Raimi's Spider-Man making 100+ million dollars in its opening weekend, reminding people that you can make "Comic booky" superhero films smash hits. Raimi's Spidey has more influence than Singer's X-Men ever did.

From 2000-2007, The X-Men were the second biggest CBM series, but in hindsight, that's pretty much due to lack of real competition. As soon as we got CBMs that matched the scale, quality and/or tone of the Raimi films, the Fox-style X-Men films fell down the totem pole.

Deadpool is easily the greatest success story of the later era Fox X-Films, and it did so largely by being the things Singer X-Men wasn't.

I think you're right and I definitely see more Raimi influence on the MCU than X-men.

 

[Drizzle]

I think people totally overhype just how much of a role X-Men 1 had in kickstarting the current comic book craze.

Like most successful 70's-90's CBMs, it was successful, but its success didn't lead to a huge craze.

IMO, What really led to what we have now was Sam Raimi's Spider-Man making 100+ million dollars in its opening weekend, reminding people that you can make "Comic booky" superhero films smash hits. Raimi's Spidey has more influence than Singer's X-Men ever did.

From 2000-2007, The X-Men were the second biggest CBM series, but in hindsight, that's pretty much due to lack of real competition. As soon as we got CBMs that matched the scale, quality and/or tone of the Raimi films, the Fox-style X-Men films fell down the totem pole.

Deadpool is easily the greatest success story of the later era Fox X-Films, and it did so largely by being the things Singer X-Men wasn't.

This is true, but even though the movie wasn't a huge phenomenon like earlier CBMs like Batman, X-Men being a success paved the way for Spider-Man to be even bigger. X-Men walked so Spider-Man could run.

 

[The Batman]

I don't agree. Spidey is one of three most iconic superheroes of all time. If you take the first major live action Spider-Man film and make it good, that's a film that would've made major money without X-Men preceding it.

 

[psylockolussus]

X-Men 1 did pave the way eXpecially to ips like Fantastic Four and Daredevil getting their movies under foX. It still earned more than 150 million in North America and during those times,how many comic book movies have achieved that? Something like Blade and Men in Black weren't that well known as ips that have originated from the comics. Also, the fact that they got away with those black leather costumes and overtly serious tone is impressive for the studio. Like as someone who was eXposed toTas and X-Men videogames, the 2000 X-Men movie had such a different look and it could have killed the movie.

 

[Bayne]

When characters like Aquaman, Black Panther and even Antman made more money than most x-men movies, you just know the studio definetly did 'something' wrong.

Not really. Most X-men movies existed a decade earlier than Aquaman, Black Panther and even Ant-man.

Release Ant-man or Aquaman in the 2000s and they wouldn't have made even a fraction of what they did. Black Panther has enough going for it that it might have pulled out a success in the end, but not the massive success it had in reality.

When the Avengers solidified the popularity of the MCU in 2012 it pulled the entire genre up with it in terms of box office. Later than 2012 MCU box office receipts made everything from phase 1 (except Iron Man, and even he got overshadowed by Black Panther/Captain Marvel) look quaint. But Fox and WB et al benefitted from this as well, with DoFP, Logan and the 2 Deadpools all hitting the 600m-800m range, well above Ant-man. (And, of course, with Aquaman crossing a billion, among other DC successes). Even Apocalypse, bad as it was, still beat Ant-man by 20m. The only real box office disaster in the fox series is Dark Phoenix which was not only bad and strongly disliked, but also fundamentally rendered pointless by the news that Marvel now owned Fox and the X-men series was over, anyway.

how i see it DOFP>MCU Don't @ me.
DOFP is one of the only comic book movies where the literal climax of the movie is purely ad utterly based on character. It's really just a character making a choice and thats it. No MCU movie has had the balls to do that. DOFP also avoids something that annoys me in most blockbusters in general, not bringing the drama and tension into the third act/final battle. What I mean by this is that a lot blockbusters including comic book films fall into this trap where a characters arc or dramatic emotional dilemma is concluded before moving into the final battle, in order to force rest of the movie to consist of only action, fanservice, and one liners. It comes off like the movie is saying "finally, all the dumb pesky character stuff is out of the way, now we can focus on explosions! yeah baby!" it just makes the last parts of the film feel like a slog and not engaging. DOFP avoids this by not making the climax of the film a battle, or a big spectacle confrontation, but just a woman pointing a gun and having a conversation with a psychic guy stuck under rubble.

The finale of Dr. Strange is just a character choosing to voluntarily submit to literal eternal pain and suffering in the hope that his tormenter will get bored enough to make a deal not to invade the earth. Which is the cap of his whole movie long arc away from being a totally self-absorbed jackass who only cares about himself. In a lot of ways it's really kind of the exact same thing as DoFP, although its not an external conversation between him and someone who's trying to convince him to be better.

I never really bought the conflict in Civil War, the whole final fight relies on too much contrivance in getting to that point, namely the camera that just happened to be in the middle of a deserted road to capture Bucky killing Starks parents perfectly doesnt sit right.

It's not the camera which brings about the final fight, it's the fact of what happened. The camera is a dramatic contrivance that exists to make the audience understand what Tony is feeling. You could replace it entirely with a piece of paper that details the mission pulled from some Hydra archive and that would be more 'realistic' while still allowing the story to unfold exactly the same way. It just wouldn't be the right choice for the movie, because the audience wouldn't connect with a piece of paper the way they will with actually seeing Howard die.

 

[psylockolussus]

The X-Men/FoXverse movies should have earned X billion dollars by now. FoX got an early head start Xpecially compare to Sony/Marvel Studios.

 

[Herofan]

I think you have to wonder, what if Joss Whedon had written and/or directed the 2000 film and its sequels?

 

[Ctfxcwatcher]

A Joss Whedon X-men would've been very interesting. When Whedon is ON, I enjoy his material very much.

 

[Herofan]

Financially I think at best it would have made only a little more money than the actual film, not been a phenomenon like The Avengers (which would suggest a big part of the extent of The Avengers success was the preexisting casting and the special effects). But it probably would have been quite a bit more ensemble rather than heavily about Wolverine so maybe making for a stronger series. OTOH it also could have been too confusing-to-new-viewers and/or trying too hard to be hip and badass and undercut the possibility of sequels, at least they would have to be lower-budget.

I also think he would have probably gone younger in casting Magneto and maybe even Xavier too.