Female Characters

[Jennifer Walters]

I felt like this was a subject we needed to talk about. Why is it that female characters have such a hard time staying a float in the comics world, even when a book is well written and has a great creative team, I feel like most comic readers don't give them a chance.

Is it because all the straight men reading comics just are intimidated by girls that can kick their ass? Or is it something else entirely?

I very much doubt that it's the lack of female readers that doesn't keep a great female superhero book like Slott's run on She-Hulk or all of Spider-Girl from being cancelled? So why is it exactly that female ongoings so rarely stay afloat long? Especially on the side of Marvel.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Men whoopin ass > Women whoopin ass. Not being sexist, but there's a reason there were no female gladiators. They make decent supporting characters but clearly too few people are interested in seeing a female character in the spotlight.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Female characters whooping ass has always been more interesting to me, because it plays on EXACTLY the reasonings you just gave. It's unpredictable for a girl to beat your ass, a jacked man beating your ass is cliche and lame.

 

[Energist]

I often wonder this myself, and a theory I have is that it stems back to childhood. When most boys are young, girls are icky and have cooties, and this is the same time when a lot of future comic book fans develop their love of superheroes. Because of this--no surprise--most of the favorites going in for a young reader are already comprised of the male characters, so they instinctively gravitate towards the books featuring them. Of course we all outgrow our aversion to the opposite sex, but I think the stigma of preferring a male character to a female character lasts for a lot of boys into adulthood, if only subconsciously.

There's probably no shortage of vicariousness going on, too. For the same reason young boys were so fond of Captain Marvel back in the Fawcett days, most adult men probably tend to prefer Batman to Wonder Woman. It's not only easier for a man to relate to a male character, but the subject matter and the way it's presented from a hero's perspective as opposed to a heroine's is likely also more appealing. The hero getting with the girl is probably preferable to the heroine getting with the guy, and in the case of the latter I wouldn't be surprised if even some latent animosity was generated from the more obsessive male reader.

These are all just my baseless theories on the matter. I'm not a psychologist nor do I pretend to be one, so what do I really know? On point, though, I happen to like quite a few female characters, so obviously not all men judge a character one way or the other based on sex. Elektra, Black Widow, and Mystique are among some of my favorites, and I'll buy (or have already bought) any ongoing with any of their names on it.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

That's a good set of points.

However is it really that gross to a (straight) male to read about a girl superhero because she dates men? That seems childish in a way.

I'm gay and have absolutely no problem reading the multiple ongoings where men are purusing their love interests. In fact I often root for them to get the girl. What keeps some straight males from doing this with a female lead?

 

[Energist]

Well, like I said, it's just a theory. I'm straight and I have no problem with the girl getting the guy, either. I don't think it's necessarily "gross" to other men, it's just not the same as seeing the guy getting the girl; not as relatable, anyway. Might also be a case of no guy ever being good enough for the girl in the reader's mind, because whereas a man might see themselves as the protagonist when it's a male, they might see a woman in the same role as an ideal, and as such, view her as being virtually unattainable.

Just more random guesses on my part, though.

 

[Spider-Vader]

I love some of the woman characters like Ms. Marvel, Rogue & Shulkie. But the male characters just interest me more, the guys get the more interesting roles & personalities first.

 

[Tron Bonne]

The demographic isn't all that interested in it. Just in the way there are very few action heroines in movies. It's mostly a male dominated system, and males like to see other males beat up on people and blow stuff up. You put a woman in that main role, and you basically get a lot of those males raising their eyebrows in confusion. You make a movie like, say, Die Hard with a female lead, and you'll probably get a similar reaction.

It's a lot of factors, I suppose. Relation, perceived gender roles, lack of exposure to heroines, society dictation, etc. Maybe even some way to work out some repressed homosexual feelings

 

[Drz]

Luckily Batwoman is selling nicely... I just hope her sales won't decrease when she gets her own title. (like this happened with Paul Dini when he got his Strets of Gotham)

 

[Ace of Knaves]

There are some great female characters like Shulkie out there. But they are a lot of ****e female characters too who seem to be in books simply to appease the politically correct brigade or whatever you wanna call em.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

It's a shame that. It's take the heroine to be a lesbian to sell a book. Of course, that's belitting to Batwoman as she's a great character without her sexuality coming in to factor. I mean I know Rucka was writing her but what makes that case special? We had a great writer in Slott writing She-Hulk and we had DeFalco on Spider-Girl. Why does Batwoman in Detective sell? Is it Rucka? Is it the character? Is it the fact it's Detective Comics that has been around forever and use to star Batman? What's the deal there?

I don't see why a man would be confused about a woman being the hero. It's a sexist line of thinking that they should always be the damsel or the supporting character.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It's probably the fact that it's Detective Comics. I doubt it's Batwoman or her sexuality, since the mainstream media coverage of her being a lesbian didn't boost sales of her pre-Detective appearances--Crime Bible sold abysmally, if I recall correctly. Taking over a major character's book seems like a good strategy for getting people to at least try new characters out. I doubt Incredible Hercules would've sold as well as it did initially if it had just been a Hercules ongoing rather than "that thing that took over the Hulk's comic."

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Yes, but that leaves to question why War Machine got cancelled. LOL. (Well I know why, cause that book sucked.)

 

[Tron Bonne]

I don't see why a man would be confused about a woman being the hero. It's a sexist line of thinking that they should always be the damsel or the supporting character.

Oh, I agree, but I was making an observation. I've had conversations with people who just could not really 'get' the idea of an action movie (or, in the case I'm thinking of specifically right now, a game) with a female lead. There are several exceptions, of course, but I find that to be a general attitude I've encountered

 

[Drz]

It's probably the fact that it's Detective Comics. I doubt it's Batwoman or her sexuality, since the mainstream media coverage of her being a lesbian didn't boost sales of her pre-Detective appearances--Crime Bible sold abysmally, if I recall correctly. Taking over a major character's book seems like a good strategy for getting people to at least try new characters out. I doubt Incredible Hercules would've sold as well as it did initially if it had just been a Hercules ongoing rather than "that thing that took over the Hulk's comic."

Let's hope her comic will sell awesomely. It's probably going to be 2.99 title since it won't have Question. That should attract new comers too hopefully!

 

[fifthfiend]

I think a big part of this (in comics and in general entertainment media) is the biases of the people producing the work and those in turn becoming self-fulfilling prophecies. No matter how many Xena Warrior Princesses or Alienses or Buffy the Vampire Slayers or Powerpuff Girlses you have people will insist that action stuff with girls just doesn't sell because the people who actually produce stuff / decide what gets produced aren't interested in producing that sort of thing and they project their own preferences onto the marketplace. And then when that sort of thing does get produced the self-fulfillingness gets fulfilled in other ways like lack of institutional / promotional support for the project.

And then you take the generalized tendencies of the entertainment industry and project them onto the comics market which along with being subject to the above is also its own weird little stunted reactionary universe where people only know how to sell what was popular 30/40 years ago so which characters can succeed today ends up largely being dictated by the cultural preferences of the 1970s.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Oh, I agree, but I was making an observation. I've had conversations with people who just could not really 'get' the idea of an action movie (or, in the case I'm thinking of specifically right now, a game) with a female lead. There are several exceptions, of course, but I find that to be a general attitude I've encountered

Would said game be Final Fantasy 13, because I'm really looking forward to Lightning as the main character of that.

In a way, you'd think seeing the success of so many movies where the female characters are just as strong, if not stronger than the males would change this trend. It's odd how we've had Buffy, Ripley, and other strong heroines that were successful or semi-successful and yet the trend still leans towards male heroes being more successful.

 

[Brown Lantern]

Another issue here is that most female characters were created as gimmicks that got tied up and captured all the time and were pail reflection of their male counterparts (Supergirl, Batgirl, ect.) As a kid all I saw these characters for was lesser forms of their male counterparts. The best female characters are the one's with their own legacy. The Phoenix is my all time favorite female character becasue she had brains, power, and sex appeal without cleavage and booby tassels. In this line of strong female characters is Wonder Woman, Witchblade, and Catwoman; all of which had better runs than first tier male characters like an Aquaman. As for the act of watching a female character find love in a male, I never minded this I always found Jean's love triangle with Scott and Logan to be the most interesting internal love conflict in comics. Recenttly, I have enjoyed the Wonder Woman/ Nemesis relationship (kinda like the show Bones). In closing, the big issues for me with female characters are a tainted background and the fact that quality writers and artists are never assigned to female characters for very long.

I say more of this...

Less of this...

 

[Brown Lantern]

ooops double post

 

[CaptainCanada]

There aren't really any long-lasting solo titles created later than the 1960s; since the 1940s-1960s characters tend to be male, that's the main reason (likewise, why attempts to make solo titles more racially diverse has been an uphill battle, since characters created in that period were more or less exclusively white). If you weren't created by 1970, your title doesn't have enough built-in "importance" with either editors or audiences to survive indefinitely (plenty of the early characters' titles have had real low periods, but because of their prestige editorial will always try to revive them).

 

[storyteller]

Its quite simple. The majority of reads are men. Men tend relate to characters that are men. Most of these men will look at a cover and unless the main character is a guy, they won't pick it up.

Also in combo with what else was said about being a sustainable comic in general. I mean only a handful of comics have really being sustainable and these comics had Saturday morning cartoons of a revolving characters set(X-men isn't too much the original x-men).

 

[Tron Bonne]

Would said game be Final Fantasy 13, because I'm really looking forward to Lightning as the main character of that.

Metal Gear Solid, actually. I was talking with others about some ideas of the future of the franchise, and one of the ideas was for one of the young female characters to take the lead over in the next game (there's some vague hints towards it at the end of the game).

In a way, you'd think seeing the success of so many movies where the female characters are just as strong, if not stronger than the males would change this trend. It's odd how we've had Buffy, Ripley, and other strong heroines that were successful or semi-successful and yet the trend still leans towards male heroes being more successful.

I think it's too little to really make a significant impact. Occasionally those characters make it long term (I'm not sure how, I guess exceptions to the rule are a given to any standard), but they only stay exceptions as opposed to getting anywhere else or opening doors.

I think a big part of this (in comics and in general entertainment media) is the biases of the people producing the work and those in turn becoming self-fulfilling prophecies. No matter how many Xena Warrior Princesses or Alienses or Buffy the Vampire Slayers or Powerpuff Girlses you have people will insist that action stuff with girls just doesn't sell because the people who actually produce stuff / decide what gets produced aren't interested in producing that sort of thing and they project their own preferences onto the marketplace. And then when that sort of thing does get produced the self-fulfillingness gets fulfilled in other ways like lack of institutional / promotional support for the project.

And then you take the generalized tendencies of the entertainment industry and project them onto the comics market which along with being subject to the above is also its own weird little stunted reactionary universe where people only know how to sell what was popular 30/40 years ago so which characters can succeed today ends up largely being dictated by the cultural preferences of the 1970s.

Interesting theory.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Brown that just sounds like a case of hating Emma, cause you love Jean. Both are great characters when written correctly. I prefer Emma though as I've liked more stories with her than Jean.

Ah, hmm. Metal Gear Solid with a leading lady? I could see it.

 

[Visceral]

There have been female characters that have stayed a float, and there are probably just as many male characters that haven't stayed afloat.

and another thing, comic books are not just about whooping ass. I think that is why a lot of female characters don't stay afloat, because their writer is so concerned with making sure that they can physically contend with their male counter parts they lose track of the actual goal. To create an interesting character, regardless of how they are physically.

 

[Temple Fugate]

tbh i dont read female headliners because i dont want to be overwhelmed by boobage.

i am only a man, a very meek antisocial virgin man.


also on a slightly off topic note, has there ever been a flat chested women heroic figure or is that just heresy to even think about.