BvS How do you think the movie will turn out

[Flint Marko]

How sure are we that aquaman and the flash might be in this? I thought that was just a long standing rumor.

 

[Human Torch]

I'm pretty sure Green Lantern is the only one confirmed to be "off the table" until the JL movie.I think Aquaman is supposedly a lock.Flash may be still up in the air.

 

[Migu-EL]

This movie will be awesome because it will be the first time in live action that the two most iconic superheroes of all time (Superman and Batman) will be in the same movie. IMO of course.

 

[Black Narcissus]

For years and years,,,All we hear is that the studio doesn't care about WW, and now the logic is that she is a studio demand. Oh lawd.

Snyder is big fanboy! Could it be the he just wanted her in the movie? Nah, it must of been a demand.

 

[Lilbaz]

It's Dawn Of Justice. The build up of the Justice League. They've made the title of the film Batman v Superman to bring in the audience. I'd be surprised if much of the film was them fighting each other. Yes they will be the focus, but hope the others will have their fair share of screen time.

 

[The Question]

I agree with almost everything Flint Marko has said so far. I think this movie is going to be over crowded, poorly paced, and there's definitely going to be an emphasis on style over substance. That is the Zack Snyder way.

As for the folks saying that Batman needs no introduction because everyone is already familiar with the concept: Introducing and building up a character in a story isn't just about making sure that the audience understands who is who and what is going on. It's about introducing the audience to the character, who they are as a person, and what their role is in this story. It's about establishing a connection between the character and the audience to get them engaged in this film. Batman will require an introduction because this is not Chris Nolan and Christian Bale's Batman. This is a new version of the character in a new narrative, and they're going to have to spend some time introducing this iteration of Batman to the audience in order to create an immersive movie going experience. That's screenwriting 101. No matter how iconic the character you're working with is, every new iteration has to get the audience to care about this version.

Now, of course, this is possible. But it is just one of several plates that the filmmakers are attempting to spin, and while it is possible to create a movie that has that much stuff to juggle, it is especially difficult, and I see no evidence that Snyder is up to the task. Also, Terrio is definitely a talented writer, but talent at writing crime thrillers and political thrillers doesn't necessarily translate to talent at writing weird superhero genre films that have a bunch of different characters embodying wildly different concepts. Writing genre and making it credible is a specific skill set that not a lot of literary fiction writers have.

 

[roach]

Again I say this...a movie is not bloated by the number of character but by how they are used.
Spider-man 3 is considered bloated. Why? Because it had three villains? No. Because the movie did not know how to handle all three characters...which is why we got the unsatisfying " I forgive you" ending for Sandman.
Batman Returns and Winter Soldier are two movies that used 3 villains to great use.

No one is saying there's no need to introduce Batman...every movie introduces a character. Everything you need to know about a character is conveyed in their words and actions...and it does not take long to convey it.
In Raiders of the Lost Ark everything we need to know about Indiana Jones is conveyed in the opening scenes...the whole temple sequence. He's a smart grave robber, expert with a whip, is virtually fearless...except for snakes, and is an archaeologist. This is all conveyed in 5-10 minutes of the film.

 

[The Question]

Again I say this…a movie is not bloated by the number of character but by how they are used.

I don't think it's that cut and dry. Number of characters is undeniably a factor. More characters in a story inherently means more work and more things to keep track of. Obviously the way in which they're used is also a factor, and a very important one, but I think it's silly to say that a story with ten characters is just as easy to write and direct as a story with two.

And the bloat doesn't just come from the number of characters, it comes from the kinds of characters, and how well those characters are integrated into the tone and the themes of the story. Sure, you can make a great film with lots of characters even though it is slightly more of a challenge, but it's much more difficult if those characters are all fairly complex, if all of them could be stars of their own films, and if all of them have entirely unrelated backstories that need to be integrated into the same narrative. It's possible, bit it's no simple task.

So, ultimately, I agree, bloat comes from how well the characters are used, and not simply from the number of characters. But my whole point is that I do not believe that the filmmakers have what it takes to do it well. If Terry Gilliam were directing this film, I would have absolutely no doubts.

Spider-man 3 is considered bloated. Why? Because it had three villains? No. Because the movie did not know how to handle all three characters…which is why we got the unsatisfying " I forgive you" ending for Sandman.

What suggestions would you make to improve Spider-Man 3 besides cutting one or two of the villains?

Batman Returns and Winter Soldier are two movies that used 3 villains to great use.

True. But:

1: All of those villains fell into the same tone and theme within their respective films, and all of fit within the same basic genre. Burton's take on Catwoman and Penguin, as well as his creation of Max Shreck, all tied together tonally and thematically in this weird gothic fairytale version of urban America he had going on. Winter Soldier, Pierce, and Zola are all sic-fi spy thriller type characters, and in their case all of their backstories were inherently interconnected.

2: The Winter Soldier wasn't perfect in juggling it's three villains. Zola was fairly silly and vaguely pointless, and The Winter Soldier's "friend turned dark side" subplot wasn't very well integrated into the main plot of the film, I don't think.

No one is saying there's no need to introduce Batman…

Several people have said that. You haven't, but it has been said.

every movie introduces a character. Everything you need to know about a character is conveyed in their words and actions...and it does not take long to convey it.
In Raiders of the Lost Ark everything we need to know about Indiana Jones is conveyed in the opening scenes...the whole temple sequence. He's a smart grave robber, expert with a whip, is virtually fearless...except for snakes, and is an archaeologist. This is all conveyed in 5-10 minutes of the film.

1: 5-10 minutes of a two hour film is 10-20% of the movie's running time. That's not nothing.

2: Sure, you can (in theory) convey all of the necessary information subtly through words and actions, but the audience still needs time to get a feel for the character and connect with them on an emotional level. It's not just about understanding who this guy is, it's also about feeling who this guy is. You need quiet moments where it's just people being people without any action or fisticuffs, and when you have a lot of characters that gets trickier to juggle.

3: There's also the issue of credibility. Every genre story, sic-fi, fantasy, what have you, has to make it's weird concepts seem credible. They have to earn that credibility every single time. Now, there are more ways to obtain credibility under the sun than I care to count right now, but it's a delicate thing that can go so wrong so easily, and the more characters with unrelated weird concepts you introduce in one movie, the harder it becomes to make them all seem credible.

4: Then, you have structure and pacing to take into account. Different characters with different roles in the story might (and usually do) need different approaches to introducing them and fleshing them out for the audience, different types of scenes and different approaches to exposition and whatnot, and that has to be weighed against the structure of the piece. You have to make sure that the transition from one type of scene to another has a good flow, and the more characters and the more concepts you throw into a movie, the more delicate that process becomes.

5: You're using an example from a film made by one of the greatest living Hollywood directors, a guy who has a genius understanding of character work and how to direct actors. Zack Snyder is not that guy. I have never seen a Zack Snyder film that handled characterization with that kind of subtlety and grace.

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

My main praise for Terrio and the main reason why I'm excited that he's writing this movie isn't because he's good at making crime thrillers or political thrillers, it's because of how he wrote all the different characters in Argo. And there were a lot and he wrote them well. They didn't need an origin solo film and you knew them. There will be many characters in focus in BvS as well and that's where I feel Terrio could be at full force. As for the director, I am honestly only pleased by his visuals. There's fair skepticism and doubt on how he'll do, but even he isn't horrible at his job.

 

[The Question]

My main praise for Terrio and the main reason why I'm excited that he's writing this movie isn't because he's good at making crime thrillers or political thrillers, it's because of how he wrote all the different characters in Argo. And there were a lot and he wrote them well. They didn't need an origin solo film and you knew them. There will be many characters in focus in BvS as well and that's where I feel Terrio could be at full force. As for the director, I am honestly only pleased by his visuals. There's fair skepticism and doubt on how he'll do, but even he isn't horrible at his job.

1: Argo and The Town didn't have several weird, wildly different, and unrelated character concepts that needed juggling. All of them fell within the same basic milieu.

2: Terrio has never done genre before. You'd be surprised how many brilliant literary fiction writers fail miserably when they attempt to do genre. Writing about aliens and cyborgs and magical Amazons and making it seem credible is a very specific skill set that crime thrillers and political thrillers do no train you for.

 

[Flint Marko]

I agree with almost everything Flint Marko has said so far. I think this movie is going to be over crowded, poorly paced, and there's definitely going to be an emphasis on style over substance. That is the Zack Snyder way.

As for the folks saying that Batman needs no introduction because everyone is already familiar with the concept: Introducing and building up a character in a story isn't just about making sure that the audience understands who is who and what is going on. It's about introducing the audience to the character, who they are as a person, and what their role is in this story. It's about establishing a connection between the character and the audience to get them engaged in this film. Batman will require an introduction because this is not Chris Nolan and Christian Bale's Batman. This is a new version of the character in a new narrative, and they're going to have to spend some time introducing this iteration of Batman to the audience in order to create an immersive movie going experience. That's screenwriting 101. No matter how iconic the character you're working with is, every new iteration has to get the audience to care about this version.

Now, of course, this is possible. But it is just one of several plates that the filmmakers are attempting to spin, and while it is possible to create a movie that has that much stuff to juggle, it is especially difficult, and I see no evidence that Snyder is up to the task. Also, Terrio is definitely a talented writer, but talent at writing crime thrillers and political thrillers doesn't necessarily translate to talent at writing weird superhero genre films that have a bunch of different characters embodying wildly different concepts. Writing genre and making it credible is a specific skill set that not a lot of literary fiction writers have.

Boom, hit the nail on the head.

Again I say this...a movie is not bloated by the number of character but by how they are used.
Spider-man 3 is considered bloated. Why? Because it had three villains? No. Because the movie did not know how to handle all three characters...which is why we got the unsatisfying " I forgive you" ending for Sandman.
Batman Returns and Winter Soldier are two movies that used 3 villains to great use.

No one is saying there's no need to introduce Batman...every movie introduces a character. Everything you need to know about a character is conveyed in their words and actions...and it does not take long to convey it.
In Raiders of the Lost Ark everything we need to know about Indiana Jones is conveyed in the opening scenes...the whole temple sequence. He's a smart grave robber, expert with a whip, is virtually fearless...except for snakes, and is an archaeologist. This is all conveyed in 5-10 minutes of the film.

In the case of SM3, there were to many villains that all fought for screen time, and in the end none of them were fleshed out and the entire movie suffered for it. Yes, they didn't use the characters properly but if they had cut one villain out it would've been easier for the film to work. That's a simple fix right there; just trim the fat and remove what is unnecessary, in this case sandman. It might still have turned out pretty lackluster, but it would have made for a better movie. That's why I say it's crowded, and why I think Wonder Woman and the other cameos might end up detracting from this movie. It's called "Batman and Superman", that should be the films main focus, not world-building towards the JL movie.
And once again, I cannot say this enough; I do think a movie with this many different people in it can be successful. A movie that features Superman, his supporting cast, while also introducing Lex Luthor, Wonder Woman, Batman, Cyborg, Aquaman, and however many other characters could potentially work. My main point, which I don't think some people are hearing, is that it will be a very difficult task that Snyder and co just aren't up for. That's been my entire point. The movie, from what little we know, sounds packed to the brim with characters (which, again, sounds like a studio mandate) and I think it will suffer for it.
And actually if you go back in this very thread you'll find people saying there is no need to introduce Batman.

 

[The Question]

And once again, I cannot say this enough; I do think a movie with this many different people in it can be successful. A movie that features Superman, his supporting cast, while also introducing Lex Luthor, Wonder Woman, Batman, Cyborg, Aquaman, and however many other characters could potentially work. My main point, which I don't think some people are hearing, is that it will be a very difficult task that Snyder and co just aren't up for. That's been my entire point. The movie, from what little we know, sounds packed to the brim with characters (which, again, sounds like a studio mandate) and I think it will suffer for it.
And actually if you go back in this very thread you'll find people saying there is no need to introduce Batman.

If the IMDB page for this film said "Directed by Terry Gilliam, Co-written by Terry Gilliam and Grant Morrison," I would have exactly zero doubts about the quality of this production.

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

How sure are we that aquaman and the flash might be in this? I thought that was just a long standing rumor.

There's no confirmation on The Flash at all. Aquaman on the other hand, is yet to be confirmed. Even his cast hasn't be confirmed. It's all rumors as of now.

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

1: Argo and The Town didn't have several weird, wildly different, and unrelated character concepts that needed juggling. All of them fell within the same basic milieu.

2: Terrio has never done genre before. You'd be surprised how many brilliant literary fiction writers fail miserably when they attempt to do genre. Writing about aliens and cyborgs and magical Amazons and making it seem credible is a very specific skill set that crime thrillers and political thrillers do no train you for.

Look, with no confirmed story or plot for this film, I can't say more than I've already said.

 

[The Question]

Look, with no confirmed story or plot for this film, I can't say more than I've already said.

Okay? I'm not sure what you're saying here, to be completely honest.

 

[Flint Marko]

If the IMDB page for this film said "Directed by Terry Gilliam, Co-written by Terry Gilliam and Grant Morrison," I would have exactly zero doubts about the quality of this production.

Agreed. I don't completely dislike Snyder, as I do think he has a knack for visual flair, but to make him the one in charge of the entire DC cinematic universe is a poor move no matter how you look at it.

There's no confirmation on The Flash at all. Aquaman on the other hand, is yet to be confirmed. Even his cast hasn't be confirmed. It's all rumors as of now.

Human torch up there just said it's basically a lock. I guess we'll have to just wait and see.

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

Agreed. I don't completely dislike Snyder, as I do think he has a knack for visual flair, but to make him the one in charge of the entire DC cinematic universe is a poor move no matter how you look at it.

Human torch up there just said it's basically a lock. I guess we'll have to just wait and see.

Waiting is better. Some were so sure The Rock would be SHAZAM and that turned out false.

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

Okay? I'm not sure what you're saying here, to be completely honest.

You said how can one balance an alien, cyborg, and Amazonian princess in one film and I can't say how with no idea of the plot of the film. For example, from what I've heard, Cyborg is just a small cameo and he won't be cyborg in this film. So he doesn't need a lot of focus. I basically am trying to say I can't dismiss a film I haven't seen a proper synopsis for or trailer of.

 

[The Question]

You said how can one balance an alien, cyborg, and Amazonian princess in one film and I can't say how with no idea of the plot of the film. For example, from what I've heard, Cyborg is just a small cameo and he won't be cyborg in this film. So he doesn't need a lot of focus. I basically am trying to say I can't dismiss a film I haven't seen a proper synopsis for or trailer of.

But I didn't say that.

I said that it's a difficult piece of writing, the likes of which Terrio has never attempted before because he has never written genre before, and that's a good reason to be skeptical of his suitability here.

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

But I didn't say that.

I said that it's a difficult piece of writing, the likes of which Terrio has never attempted before because he has never written genre before, and that's a good reason to be skeptical of his suitability here.

That's fair. It is difficult, but not impossible for Terrio to be successful at it. To be skeptical of it is fair.

 

[Guts]

If the IMDB page for this film said "Directed by Terry Gilliam, Co-written by Terry Gilliam and Grant Morrison," I would have exactly zero doubts about the quality of this production.

I'd rather have him directing Sandman.

 

[jonathancrane]

I think it has the chance of being on the same level as Watchmen, if the script is solid. The look is damn flawless. I think there is a very good chance it will be on the same tier as Watchmen.

 

[The Question]

I think it has the chance of being on the same level as Watchmen, if the script is solid. The look is damn flawless. I think there is a very good chance it will be on the same tier as Watchmen.

Which will be a problem, because The Watchmen was a pretty bad movie.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Which will be a problem, because The Watchmen was a pretty bad movie.

Or it was a pretty good movie to others.

 

[TheNextNolan22]

I loved Watchmen so...