Is Batman Insane?

[CFE]

The condition of Wayne's sanity is an issue that has been touched upon time and time again for the last few recent decades (since the 70s I'd say).

But what do my fellow Bat-Hypsters think?

Me personally, I feel that he is. I mean considering the circumstances he chose to place on his life how could he not be insane to some degree.

But it's a balancing act. Somedays I feel he's more insane and someday's I don't.

So what're everyone else's opinions?

CFE

 

[Steyin]

Perhaps slightly, but I always tend to go with "obsessed" more than anything. There's only so much one man can do, and he's devoted his life to it. Perhaps its insane commitment to a just cause.

 

[LegendaryCaleb]

id say hes a lil insane...but who isnt these days

 

[Mr. Socko]

Like Tim Burton said, any man who dresses as a bat to fight the evil of a city certainly is close to that brink.

He's not insane, but sometimes he can get close to that edge.

 

[Dark Guardian]

I'm sorry, but Batman has and always will be represented to me by the Animated Series. And in that, Batman is definitely not insane.

 

[Mister J]

I've never considered him to be insane, at least not with any longstanding merit. To me, insanity represents some type of mental deficiency or a lack of understanding/appreciation. Bruce certainly puts himself in harm's way with regularity and conducts some of his business in a way that comes across as 'unusual' or 'foreign' to most, but it's not as if he's detached from reality in the matter. He utilizes planning to a near-impeccable degree and is impossibly trained and prepared. He's aware of his own mortality and is hardly ever reckless. I'd say the guy who goes off and does what Batman does without the requisite amount of skill and equipment is insane. However, a man who spent his formative years preparing for such a

Batman is definitely neurotic and obsessive. I'd say he exhibits signs of paranoid personality disorder and perhaps occasionally manifests some type pf psychosis, but he's also extremely rational and disciplined. It's highly unusual for him to act without thinking, either on the spot or beforehand. His aversion to risk is certainly less than the average person and his extreme focus and dedication to the task at hand may be odd, but how he operates doesn't strike me as insane. Bruce is capable of going to some very dark places (his behavior after Jason died, the Venom storyline, etc.), but he's always been lucid enough to 'reset' himself and gain proper focus. He's got his hangups, but I don't count insanity among them.

 

[Mladen]

I'd say Bruce is more self-indulgent than insane, though he suffers from some pretty severe delusions, specifically he's convinced himself that his one-man war on petty crime is anything more than a childish quest for retribution. In fact he's utterly squandering his position in high society on his power fantasy to make up for the traumatic experience in his childhood that robbed him of his sense of power.

Bruce has focused his time and money in training himself to be a hero (the best training etc that money can buy), but imagine the real difference his money and time could make in attacking the causes of crime, funding employment agencies and clothing/sheltering/feeding the disadvantaged in Gotham (those who typically turn to crime), he could really make a difference, instead of spending those millions on a new 50 foot plasma screen for the batcave. I've seen him occasionally doing these things in BTAS and a couple of comics, but he's usually more interested in prowling the streets at night and exhausting himself beating up desperate muggers = a personal sense of retribution, rather than stopping crime as he claims to be doing. He likes to say things like, "I'm working towards a Gotham that won't need me", but besides the occasional donation to a charity, he's not doing anything about it but beating up some desperate crooks and occasionally stopping the master criminals. In this sense, he is utterly delusional.

In fact, he's worried that conducting charitable anti-crime programs will draw attention to the fact that he COULD be the Batman, so instead he acts like a high-society toff and keeps the charitable donations to the minimum. Nice.

Instead of running around in cape and tights and justifying his existense in a never ending cycle of doling out petty justice, Bruce Wayne as, lets say, Governor, could clean up the corrupt police force, kick-start well-funded education and anti-poverty campaigns, fund and help train an army of extremely well-trained Robins to patrol the streets at night (and day), and pay for a SECURE institution which will keep the delusional super-criminal lot of Gotham in therapy.

Frankly I think his father would be ashamed, considering the considerable time and money and influence Thomas Wayne spent in helping Gotham's disadvantaged and setting up and continually funding charitable civic programs.

Then again, the tales of Bruce Wayne: Civic champion and beloved Governor of Gotham-state wouldn't be nearly as interesting... Though it'd make a sweet Elseworlds tale.

 

[Angeloz]

I'm not knowledgeable about the current comics. But I always thought Bruce was considered a philanthropist. I do remember the large Alex Ross tabloid comic even had him firing someone for trying to shut down a factory that made money and stuff in Gotham but not a lot of profit. As he felt it kept some employed who would otherwise be on the streets. Which would mean some still had self respect and no need to commit crimes. I doubt it's often explored though in most media.

Angeloz

 

[Mladen]

I'm not knowledgeable about the current comics. But I always thought Bruce was considered a philanthropist. I do remember the large Alex Ross tabloid comic even had him firing someone for trying to shut down a factory that made money and stuff in Gotham but not a lot of profit. As he felt it kept some employed who would otherwise be on the streets. Which would mean some still had self respect and no need to commit crimes. I doubt it's often explored though in most media.

Angeloz

You're entirely correct, there's definately some exceptions (the Animated Series tried to do that sort of thing a lot as well). But imagine the difference if Bruce focused his nightly obsession on doing more of the sort of stuff you mentioned... Thomas Wayne did it all the time from what I remember. Why isn't Bruce carrying on that tradition? Because he spends all of his time on his need for personal retribution, not his sense of civic duty... Remember, when Bats first started out, there WERE no super criminals in Gotham which he felt the need to combat, thus the choice of becoming a superHERO came first... He sought adventure to prove to himself that he's no longer the powerless little boy who was orphaned so long ago... And he has a limitless supply of money which means he never gets sidetracked by having to work to survive etc. Sure he 'slummed it' for a while to attempt to prove something to himself, but at any moment he could have called Alfred to bail him out.

Get rid of the few hours of fake partying, get rid of the hours (and years) spent honing his physical perfection and martial-arts training, and focus all of that time on social reform and training an ARMY of Robins etc. He'd sleep just as little, but he'd be making so much more of a difference.

To me, the sort of crime-fighting that Bruce prefers is only justified if you don't have to means to pursue any higher (and BETTER methods, like the one Angeloz mentioned)... But he's stinking rich, so he has no excuse.

I'd like to see a Batman Elseworlds where he's a homeless vagrant...

 

[BubbaGump]

I remember reading that Batman has the capabilities and resources to just spend the rest of his life as a philantropist, public speaker, or an advocate against crime, but refuses to--he goes to the streets and wants to see the RESULTS of his actions, to show that he's actually making a difference as Batman. It's a feeling you don't get when you just donate a couple million bucks. He wants the satisfaction of the job.

Batman wants to see the results of his actions with his own eyes.

 

[The Empire Ape]

Of course Batman is not insane, because insane would mean that he cannot control his actions. "Insane" is a word which is misused a lot. For example, Two Face would be insane. Is the Joker insane? This is not so clear.

And, BTW, in Hush there was this stupid line "Deep inside Clark is a good human and deep inside I am not" (or so) from Batman which I hate. How can Bruce Wayne (doing charity and helping people) seriously think this about himself?

So, Batman is not insane. The "A man dressed up as a bat is insane" argument is really bad in my opinion. First, he uses this in a pragmatic way - he is a normal human and pretens otherwise. Second, he lives in a universe where it's normal to wear funny costumes and masks. Batman is not "real life". If he thinked he IS a bat, well, THAN he would be insane, but this is definitely not the case.

 

[Angeloz]

Although I would like to add in the "JLA" comics as well as animated series he was often vital to solve something. Without him sometimes the world would have been doomed. Because they needed his brains to work it out. Also sometimes his heart. I think in the animated series there's a girl that can change reality or people's perception of it (I forget which exactly). She was dying and threatened to take the world with her (or the area). He solved it not through fighting but just being there for her last moments of life. By doing that he convinced her to put things back to normal. I think people thought (the JLAs sometimes enemy that works for the government Amanda something) that he would kill her. But he didn't. He was right. Then there's also the time he put the "JLA" in trouble ("Tower of Babel"?) which meant he left. But he saved their bacon the next story (without him they were in deep trouble). So it's not always a waste of his talent in crime fighting. Or at least being a superhero. Especially when involving the world.

Angeloz

 

[Mladen]

Although I would like to add in the "JLA" comics as well as animated series he was often vital to solve something. Without him sometimes the world would have been doomed. Because they needed his brains to work it out. Also sometimes his heart. I think in the animated series there's a girl that can change reality or people's perception of it (I forget which exactly). She was dying and threatened to take the world with her (or the area). He solved it not through fighting but just being there for her last moments of life. By doing that he convinced her to put things back to normal. I think people thought (the JLAs sometimes enemy that works for the government Amanda something) that he would kill her. But he didn't. He was right. Then there's also the time he put the "JLA" in trouble ("Tower of Babel"?) which meant he left. But he saved their bacon the next story (without him they were in deep trouble). So it's not always a waste of his talent in crime fighting. Or at least being a superhero. Especially when involving the world.

Angeloz

I remember the JLU episode with the little girl, thats one of my favs since its the official 'final' BTAS episode.

Yeah, his saving the world stuff makes a difference, but for me at least, the JL comics are secondary to his primary function as Gotham's dark knight. I don't know a lot about them either way. Sure he's saved the city a million times, and he's probably an integral part to saving the galaxy a bunch of times too , but all of that stuff came AFTER he'd already chosen to don the cape and cowl (in short, the REAL need for him dressing up in the gimmick and spending his money on detective stuff didn't come until much after he'd already chosen to do so). I don't know if another detective would have arisen to save the day in the JL stories... I honestly haven't ever read them, so I can't comment. Its a good point though.


Bubbagump, aren't the results of his action just beating up some desperate muggers? I'm sure he could read the headlines and see that with all of the money he's putting into unemployment and education, Gotham would turn around from being the most dangerous city in America. Take a few hours out of beating up some dime-store shoplifter, and draft up the paperwork for a home to house the less fortunate etc... I just think the results of his actions would be a lot more as a philanphropist. I mean, looking at the Batman Begins story briefly, Thomas Wayne could see the results of his cheap affordable mass transit system every day. Bruce just wants the adventure. He wants to feel powerful and frighten the criminals who frightened him as a child.

 

[Captain Clown]

Ah I think he's a little crazy.

 

[BubbaGump]

Bubbagump, aren't the results of his action just beating up some desperate muggers? I'm sure he could read the headlines and see that with all of the money he's putting into unemployment and education, Gotham would turn around from being the most dangerous city in America. Take a few hours out of beating up some dime-store shoplifter, and draft up the paperwork for a home to house the less fortunate etc... I just think the results of his actions would be a lot more as a philanphropist. I mean, looking at the Batman Begins story briefly, Thomas Wayne could see the results of his cheap affordable mass transit system every day. Bruce just wants the adventure. He wants to feel powerful and frighten the criminals who frightened him as a child.

My post was based on something I had read a while back. I just ran with it.

 

[Comic Book Boy]

I'm sorry, but Batman has and always will be represented to me by the Animated Series. And in that, Batman is definitely not insane.

Insane doesn't mean he has to be a drooling lunetic. Even BTAS shows the obsession he has dived into. Look at how he is spending his money. BTAS still has a man in a bat suit acting as a vigilante. He certainly has a degree of insanity.

I think it was Einstein that said, "Insanity is doing the same act over and over again, expecting different results."

The endless loop Batman has put himself in, catching criminals every night, is insane. Does he really expect to win his "war on crime?"

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Bruce has focused his time and money in training himself to be a hero (the best training etc that money can buy), but imagine the real difference his money and time could make in attacking the causes of crime, funding employment agencies and clothing/sheltering/feeding the disadvantaged in Gotham (those who typically turn to crime), he could really make a difference, instead of spending those millions on a new 50 foot plasma screen for the batcave. I've seen him occasionally doing these things in BTAS and a couple of comics, but he's usually more interested in prowling the streets at night and exhausting himself beating up desperate muggers = a personal sense of retribution, rather than stopping crime as he claims to be doing. He likes to say things like, "I'm working towards a Gotham that won't need me", but besides the occasional donation to a charity, he's not doing anything about it but beating up some desperate crooks and occasionally stopping the master criminals. In this sense, he is utterly delusional.

What do you think the Wayne Foundation is?

Like you said, it's not "interesting" material for a comic series, so there are far less stories that focus on his philanthropy, but it's there.

It's why he has guys like Fox running things.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Insane doesn't mean he has to be a drooling lunetic. Even BTAS shows the obsession he has dived into. Look at how he is spending his money. BTAS still has a man in a bat suit acting as a vigilante. He certainly has a degree of insanity.

I think it was Einstein that said, "Insanity is doing the same act over and over again, expecting different results."

The endless loop Batman has put himself in, catching criminals every night, is insane. Does he really expect to win his "war on crime?"

Doesn't make him insane, though. Unconventional, yes. Obsessive, yes. But it's his job, essentially. He just takes it very, very seriously. Would you say police officers are insane? If not, why not? Because they wear a uniform dictated by social convention, or because they get paid and have a forseeable end to their "mission" (retirement)?

His level of commitment is the major difference between him and someone like Spider-Man (who "dresses like a spider" as a vigilante, but has never been categorized as insane).

 

[Angeloz]

He has superpowers (Spider-Man).

Angeloz

 

[Mister J]

Insane doesn't mean he has to be a drooling lunetic. Even BTAS shows the obsession he has dived into. Look at how he is spending his money. BTAS still has a man in a bat suit acting as a vigilante. He certainly has a degree of insanity.

I think it was Einstein that said, "Insanity is doing the same act over and over again, expecting different results."

The endless loop Batman has put himself in, catching criminals every night, is insane. Does he really expect to win his "war on crime?"

No, he doesn't expect to win his war on crime. It's been touched on in the books before. He's made a choice towards eradicating crime, but it's a choice that comes with tangible and incremental results (lives he's saved, positive influences on others, etc.) There are several social ills that likely never will be entirely cured, but that hardly means that the people who work towards those goals are insane.

The points about wearing the suit or how he spends his money don't point to insanity either. He wears that suit for a specific reason that was a result of rational thought and it has its intended effect. As far as the money, he's a billionaire. Bruce is hardly driving himself to financial ruin or suffering any undesirable consequences. What does either point have to do with insanity?

 

[Luchastyle]

i think it depends on the interpretation of the character. some versions, he is insane. some versions, he is merely dedicated.

 

[Mladen]

I just think he's seriously deluded.
For a man of his time, education, wealth and influence to squander it on a one-man adventure mission which (he claims) has the same effect as the charitable work his father did, reeks of self-delusion.

I just think he's trying to make up for his childhood insecurities by creating a powerful role he cannot ever hope to escape from. A man of sane mind would realise that he could make a tangible difference if he dedicated ALL of that BATMAN time to curing social ills.

The rare nod to the Wayne Foundation doesn't convince me, and he could surely do much more if he is, as he says, "dedicating his life to stopping crime"

The masked vigilante route is the most effect route for someone of moderate to lesser income to stop crime. Somebody like that becoming a policeman is not insane. Donald Trump quitting his job to become a policeman however, WOULD be insane, since its clearly because he wants the adventure and self-empowerment, not because he wants to seriously put an end to crime. Bruce Wayne is EXACTLY the same. He's squandering his resources in pursuit of making himself feel big and physically powerful, and lying to himself and everybody else by claiming its done out of a sense of civic duty. Its a personal delusion, he's telling himself he's making a difference when in fact he's not. He's using a teaspoon to bail water out of a sinking ship when he's got the equipment standing by which could fix the leaks permanently.

Instead of pursuing a path which has an end goal (choosing to use his resources to eliminate unemployment for example, or providing cheap affordable housing for everybody in Gotham), he's crafted a path which assures him that his life's work will NEVER be complete, that the method he is choosing to combat it is the most personally empowering, and that he'll always be unhappy.

He's an utterly deluded individual.

 

[Damiean Dark]

I think batman is slightly mad but psycological evils can manefest themselves differently in each person. batmans relationship to the joker is a prime example of batman psychosis joker constantly goads batman that he is as mad as him this always gets batmans goat i think jokers claims are closer then batman would like to admit.

 

[Iceburgeruk]

Batman Is slightly disturbed in the smae way that movie spidey is a complete jerk.

 

[BubbaGump]

I think we're ALL delusional.

Seriously, look back at the posts in the WhySoSerious thread last night.