Math people, solve this argument for me

[Manic]

This thread is why I hate math with every fiber of my being.

 

[bored]

As do I, which is why I was so perturbed when so many people I knew didn't get it right. Whoever you are, I SHOULD NEVER BE BETTER AT MATH THAN YOU.

 

[Mrh7448]

Doesn't matter.

(2)(3) is the same thing as 2(3). Everything dealing with a () must be resolved before you can move on to the other parts of the problem.

While I'm I haven't done this math in quite some time. I remember nothing about the rules saying anything about a multiplier next to the brackets having to be done first. It really is nothing more than a multiplier, so once again following the rules, that I posted earlier it's done after the division.

Unless you or anyone else can actually find that rule in writing, then I'll retract my answer, but as it stands and from what I remember of my ancient schooling then I stand by my answer of 9.

Like someone else on online calculators and it comes up with 9.

 

[Manic]

I'm just going to give up on math and continue figuring out how the English language works. I got in an argument with someone over whether "Stop" counts as a full sentence or if it's just a fragment until you insert a subject.

 

[Calvin]

While I'm I haven't done this math in quite some time. I remember nothing about the rules saying anything about a multiplier next to the brackets having to be done first. It really is nothing more than a multiplier, so once again following the rules, that I posted earlier it's done after the division.

Unless you or anyone else can actually find that rule in writing, then I'll retract my answer, but as it stands and from what I remember of my ancient schooling then I stand by my answer of 9.

Like someone else on online calculators and it comes up with 9.

You keep saying that the parentheses are nothing but a multiplier, and so it's relegated to being counted as multiplication, but I think that's kind of the point. You use a parenthesis in place of a multiplication sign specifically to dictate it's order, hence why you do those as part of P in pemdas.

 

[Asteroid-Man]

The answer is 9. Unless of course it's 6 OVER 2(1+2), in which case it's 1... but you said DIVIDED BY; ergo, answer is 9.

 

[Mrh7448]

You keep saying that the parentheses are nothing but a multiplier, and so it's relegated to being counted as multiplication, but I think that's kind of the point. You use a parenthesis in place of a multiplication sign specifically to dictate it's order, hence why you do those as part of P in pemdas.

You use the parenthesis to dictate the order of what is inside them, not what is outside or beside it. The only thing the parenthesis does is tell you that function first. Anything outside whether it's multiplier or not is still done in the standard order. So in the sample provided the multiplication comes after the division even though it's beside the bracket.

The answer is 9. Unless of course it's 6 OVER 2(1+2), in which case it's 1... but you said DIVIDED BY; ergo, answer is 9.

This is what I agree with.

 

[Kane52630]

This thread is why I hate math with every fiber of my being.

Manic quick, turn away!

 

[Bill]

I hope I can end this with this example from this page. I post the example below. According to the rules, the answer is one. The author admits that there is always arguing when applying this rule to such problematic equations.

From the article:

This next example displays an issue that almost never arises but, when it does, there seems to be no end to the arguing.

Simplify 16 ÷ 2[8 – 3(4 – 2)] + 1.
16 ÷ 2[8 – 3(4 – 2)] + 1
= 16 ÷ 2[8 – 3(2)] + 1
= 16 ÷ 2[8 – 6] + 1
= 16 ÷ 2[2] + 1 (**)
= 16 ÷ 4 + 1
= 4 + 1
= 5

The confusing part in the above calculation is how "16 divided by 2[2] + 1" (in the line marked with the double-star) becomes "16 divided by 4 + 1", instead of "8 times by 2 + 1". That's because, even though multiplication and division are at the same level (so the left-to-right rule should apply), parentheses outrank division, so the first 2 goes with the [2], rather than with the "16 divided by". That is, multiplication that is indicated by placement against parentheses (or brackets, etc) is "stronger" than "regular" multiplication. Typesetting the entire problem in a graphing calculator verifies this hierarchy:

(graphic on page)

Note that different software will process this differently; even different models of Texas Instruments graphing calculators will process this differently. In cases of ambiguity, be very careful of your parentheses, and make your meaning clear. The general consensus among math people is that "multiplication by juxtaposition" (that is, multiplying by just putting things next to each other, rather than using the "×" sign) indicates that the juxtaposed values must be multiplied together before processing other operations. But not all software is programmed this way, and sometimes teachers view things differently. If in doubt, ask!

 

[Mrh7448]

I hope I can end this with this example from this page. I post the example below. According to the rules, the answer is one. The author admits that there is always arguing when applying this rule to such problematic equations.

From the article:

This next example displays an issue that almost never arises but, when it does, there seems to be no end to the arguing.

Simplify 16 ÷ 2[8 – 3(4 – 2)] + 1.
16 ÷ 2[8 – 3(4 – 2)] + 1
= 16 ÷ 2[8 – 3(2)] + 1
= 16 ÷ 2[8 – 6] + 1
= 16 ÷ 2[2] + 1 (**)
= 16 ÷ 4 + 1
= 4 + 1
= 5

The confusing part in the above calculation is how "16 divided by 2[2] + 1" (in the line marked with the double-star) becomes "16 divided by 4 + 1", instead of "8 times by 2 + 1". That's because, even though multiplication and division are at the same level (so the left-to-right rule should apply), parentheses outrank division, so the first 2 goes with the [2], rather than with the "16 divided by". That is, multiplication that is indicated by placement against parentheses (or brackets, etc) is "stronger" than "regular" multiplication. Typesetting the entire problem in a graphing calculator verifies this hierarchy:

(graphic on page)

Note that different software will process this differently; even different models of Texas Instruments graphing calculators will process this differently. In cases of ambiguity, be very careful of your parentheses, and make your meaning clear. The general consensus among math people is that "multiplication by juxtaposition" (that is, multiplying by just putting things next to each other, rather than using the "×" sign) indicates that the juxtaposed values must be multiplied together before processing other operations. But not all software is programmed this way, and sometimes teachers view things differently. If in doubt, ask!

Well there you go, the answer is 1. I admit that I don't remember this from school at all. But that's why I'm no mathematician.

 

[chaseter]

YAY! The 9'ers admit defeat.

 

[Gotham Knight]

YAY! The 9'ers admit defeat.

Never.

 

[chaseter]

#1!

 

[Mrh7448]

*hangs head in shame*

I did say if I was shown that rule I would change my answer. Definitely not something I remember but math class was a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

Guess it's a good thing I'm not an engineer or physicist or something.

 

[chaseter]

 

[Bill]

Honestly, no one should be hard on themselves. It was a poorly constructed problem.

 

[Rocketman]

Sign of a failing education system = This thread


(Just kidding t

 

[wiegeabo]

You use the parenthesis to dictate the order of what is inside them, not what is outside or beside it. The only thing the parenthesis does is tell you that function first. Anything outside whether it's multiplier or not is still done in the standard order. So in the sample provided the multiplication comes after the division even though it's beside the bracket.

No, that's wrong. If the () didn't dictate what was next to them, than 6+2a, where a = (1+2) could potentially be evaluated as 8(1+2) instead of 6+6. A variable is just a () written in a simpler form. 6+2a is the same as 6+2(1+3).

 

[wiegeabo]

This thread is why I hate math with every fiber of my being.

Now, now. Don't hate math. This is the fault of an imprecise mathematical notation, and a poorly written problem. If there's ever ambiguity in a math problem, that a sign it's poorly written.


It's funny how many people say they hate math, when they do it every day. One of my professors used to teach an adult math class for beginners. He noticed that very few people could properly do a problem like:

653 + 288

But, if he gave them this problem

$6.53 + $2.88

most of them could do it without issue.

 

[Metamorpho1977]

As some of you have probably seen, one of those new Facebook apps where you can take polls is asking people the answer to this solution:

6 divided by 2(1+2)=?

Possible answers are 1 and 9. I can't find a division symbol on my keyboard, so... just imagine it in between the 6 and 2.

I have people very vehemently insisting to me that the answer is 9. Now, when I was in grade/middle school, they always had us use the PEMDAS order, which would have the answer be 1. To this point, I've gotten several condescending remarks about not trusting my education, and people straight up saying PEMDAS (parantheses, exponents, multiplication, division, addition, subtraction as the order to work out equations) isn't right.

I feel the whole thing is a little silly, but people are REALLY starting to annoy me over it.

(6)/(2(1+2))

Add 2 to 1 to get 3.
(6)/(2(3))

Multiply 2 by 3 to get 6.
(6)/(2*3)

Multiply 2 by 3 to get 6.
(6)/(6)

Reduce the expression (6)/(6) by removing a factor of 6 from the numerator and denominator.
1

 

[wiegeabo]

I'm tempted to post a real math teaser that I'm sure at least 90% of people will get wrong, even though it seems so easy. But I'm afraid the resulting argument might split the Hype's space-time continuum.

 

[Manic]

Now, now. Don't hate math. This is the fault of an imprecise mathematical notation, and a poorly written problem. If there's ever ambiguity in a math problem, that a sign it's poorly written.


It's funny how many people say they hate math, when they do it every day. One of my professors used to teach an adult math class for beginners. He noticed that very few people could properly do a problem like:

653 + 288

But, if he gave them this problem

$6.53 + $2.88

most of them could do it without issue.

You'd be surprised at what I can and can't do in math. I took an Algebra class in college that basically reviewed some of the stuff I went over in the 9th grade. Give me a bunch of "solve for x" equations and inequalities (even with exponents) and I'm a decent (if not slow) student.

However, to this day, I can't remember how to reduce or add/subtract fractions. That's middle school stuff and it goes over my head.

 

[Metamorpho1977]

I'm a musician so I'm already at a disadvantage. I can't count past 4.

 

[Manic]

Isn't that only half a bar?

 

[Metamorpho1977]

That's actually one whole bar.