Daredevil S02E12 Karen's visit to Colonel Schoonover

[dmcreif]

I keep watching the whole scene of Karen's visit to Colonel Schoonover, and am like, what if Matt had come with Karen? (As in either he talked her into letting him come along or snuck over as Daredevil)

Matt would be able to be there without drawing suspicion. Because, just like in The Defenders when Matt and Jessica went to interview John Raymond's daughter, Karen has good reason to be there but Matt doesn’t. At best, Matt could give some legal/lawyer reason, but that would probably have made Schoonover suspicious.

Personally, I think the outcome of the scene would've been different if Matt was there. Matt certainly would’ve sensed a lot earlier that Schoonover was lying through his teeth, and he would’ve sensed the gun in Schoonover's pocket, so at that point he'd be trying to get Karen out of the house as soon as possible or barring that get all protective towards Karen knowing things were about to go bad. Schoonover was clearly okay with killing an unarmed woman, so he'd clearly also be okay with killing a blind man.

Obviously, Matt would have to reveal his secret to Karen if he had to fight Schoonover to keep him from hurting Karen. But it's also possible that Frank would have swooped in to the rescue faster. At which point, the difference in the aftermath of the interview is that Matt would be there to help Karen try to talk Frank out of killing Schoonover. Clearly, if Karen wasn’t able to reason with Frank, Matt probably wouldn't have either, and he'd have no choice but to fight Frank to keep him from killing Schoonover. It's hard to say whether or not Matt would want to fight Frank to save Schoonover's life, but I think that he certainly would want Schoonover to have his day in court. And Matt probably doesn't believe that someone should have to die just so he can protect his secret identity. So this would mean Matt would fight Frank with one of two outcomes: either A) Matt overpowers Frank, reveals his secret identity to Karen, the police are called, and Schoonover gets arrested and has his day in court (and maybe Frank does too), or B) Frank overpowers Matt, Matt reveals his secret identity to Karen, and Schoonover still dies as in the original scene.

That's my thoughts on the subject. What are yours?

 

[TheVileOne]

I think this is where things were getting clunky in the back half and subplots started getting disjointed.

 

[ludovica]

Definitely would have been a better way to go and would have given us a great scene as you said with Matt risking his secret in the name of fair justice.
I would then have had Frank get his way in the end overpowering Matt out of sheer will power.
Oh well.

 

[pixen]

No. Matt was distracted and that's why he gave up the mantle of DD at the end.

Karen going alone meant it didn't feel like there was a risk. She didn't know what she was getting into when she visited him and it's only halfway through that she does.

He also showed up as a character witness for Castle. It's not till she sees that photo where she puts it together. Though that's where the writing could benefit from a bigger realization as we only briefly saw the blonde on the docks. There needed to be a longer pause/shot of him there.

On top of all of that, Matt has been incredibly separated from the case and Karen/Foggy. He didn't need to be in every scene and every storyline.

 

[dmcreif]

On top of all of that, Matt has been incredibly separated from the case and Karen/Foggy. He didn't need to be in every scene and every storyline.

Well it would've been more interesting if Matt had been there. I mean, let's also consider, "What would've happened to the Karen storyline if in the 'I'm not yours to protect' conversation, she had caved and allowed Matt to come with her into protective custody?"

 

[pixen]

Yes, it could have been but it also COULD have been rather lame. You can make that sort of statement about anything and you don't back it up with much else. Yes, Matt would have been able to take him down/try to or protect her but that wasn't the point of the scene. The point was to show the Punisher's way of dealing with things. We wouldn't have gotten that nice moment in the car when the music starts playing as she turns the car on. Having Matt there would have been a huge disservice to Karen and Frank's emotional arcs.

The latter half of the second season was basically a backdoor pilot for his own show which is why there was a lack of Matt on that side.

 

[dmcreif]

Yes, it could have been but it also COULD have been rather lame. You can make that sort of statement about anything and you don't back it up with much else. Yes, Matt would have been able to take him down/try to or protect her but that wasn't the point of the scene. The point was to show the Punisher's way of dealing with things. We wouldn't have gotten that nice moment in the car when the music starts playing as she turns the car on. Having Matt there would have been a huge disservice to Karen and Frank's emotional arcs.

The latter half of the second season was basically a backdoor pilot for his own show which is why there was a lack of Matt on that side.

I'm sure that if someone wanted to do it, they could have found a way to incorporate Matt and still do those things. Then again, I have to think Karen would've been more open to Matt coming along with her if she already knew the truth about him.

 

[dmcreif]

Definitely would have been a better way to go and would have given us a great scene as you said with Matt risking his secret in the name of fair justice.
I would then have had Frank get his way in the end overpowering Matt out of sheer will power.
Oh well.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Matt would be willing to fight Frank to try and keep him from killing Schoonover.

 

[pixen]

I'm sure that if someone wanted to do it, they could have found a way to incorporate Matt and still do those things. Then again, I have to think Karen would've been more open to Matt coming along with her if she already knew the truth about him.

No. Karen and Matt weren't on speaking terms at this point. Stop trying to throw things together just because it's missing it's lead character in a scene/moment. This was just Karen and her relationship with Frank and her whole journalist side kicking in.

 

[dmcreif]

No. Karen and Matt weren't on speaking terms at this point. Stop trying to throw things together just because it's missing it's lead character in a scene/moment. This was just Karen and her relationship with Frank and her whole journalist side kicking in.

What I am saying is, "Had Karen known the truth about Matt earlier, she more likely would have been receptive and willing to let him help her, though this would come at the cost of any development she was getting with Frank."

What I'm getting at is, imagine how their “I'm not yours to protect” conversation, after she got shot at in her apartment, would have gone if Karen knew the truth about Matt. If Matt and Karen started pooling their information right then and there, if Karen knew that Daredevil was pursuing the Blacksmith, would she have backed off and let Matt handle it, if he agreed to tell her what he found? If Matt and Karen met up after the boat explosion to discuss what happened, would Stick’s men have found Matt in time to warn him that Elektra was going to kill Stick, before they bled out from their injuries? Would Karen have gone to see Colonel Schoonover on her own?

And this all would've been the case if Matt had somehow managed to convince Karen to hear him out after Frank's trial went down in flames. He could have gotten Karen to at least hear him out, if he had said something like, “No, no ******** this time, you said if I ever wanted to tell you what was going on with me then you would listen.” Regardless of how angry Karen was at Matt at that moment, even if she was adamant against reconciling with him, she wants answers. If he was ready to tell her the truth, he could have gotten her to listen. A lot of events in the back half of season 2 would've been different if the two of them were talking to each other.

 

[pixen]

Yes, in an ideal world, that's how a story would work out for the best - But that does not equal a good story. Simple as that.

Both Karen and Matt weren't talking and it lead them both down different paths. Karen learned that she could be on her own and realize that she can do more than just be an assistant. Matt went down the full DD path and it took him over and lead to him having the people he loves in danger, Karen and Elektra. He ends up losing Elektra which makes him snap out of his selfish vigilante behaviour and open up to Karen about his identity. This lines up even more since Karen felt like Matt wasn't doing ANYTHING for her. The minute he shows her the mask, she realized that he's ALWAYS been there for her. This is a huge step and needed more than just a brief thought about telling her. It took a lot of loss to get to that point.

You are trying to wrap the story up into some perfect little thing with a bow on top. That's not how things work. There needs to be some sort of stake there for the characters to get past.

 

[dmcreif]

Yes, in an ideal world, that's how a story would work out for the best - But that does not equal a good story. Simple as that.

Both Karen and Matt weren't talking and it lead them both down different paths. Karen learned that she could be on her own and realize that she can do more than just be an assistant. Matt went down the full DD path and it took him over and lead to him having the people he loves in danger, Karen and Elektra. He ends up losing Elektra which makes him snap out of his selfish vigilante behaviour and open up to Karen about his identity. This lines up even more since Karen felt like Matt wasn't doing ANYTHING for her. The minute he shows her the mask, she realized that he's ALWAYS been there for her. This is a huge step and needed more than just a brief thought about telling her. It took a lot of loss to get to that point.

You are trying to wrap the story up into some perfect little thing with a bow on top. That's not how things work. There needs to be some sort of stake there for the characters to get past.

The Matt we get in season 3 will likely be one who would accompany Karen to interviews in some capacity, and Karen accompanying Matt on his Daredevil outings in reply, since by that point they'll have to put their issues aside to focus on taking down Fisk.

Honestly, I'm probably just projecting because Matt's relationships with Karen and Foggy would never have fallen apart if everyone had been more open in communicating (because Matt just...sucks in that department. Which is probably why I relate to him because I'm also very bad at communicating with those around me).

Also, part of me doesn't like that the two halves of season 2, the Matt Murdock side and the Daredevil side, aren't tied together. As someone else here said, it's like there's a "Daredevil/Elektra/Stick/Hand" and a "Foggy/Karen/Frank/Blacksmith" story going on. Season 1 worked so well because everything was wrapped in a nice bow due to Matt's Daredevil work and his day work as a lawyer being about taking down Fisk, when in season 2, the Frank and Elektra storylines barely interact. That's for another thread, though.

 

[dmcreif]

I think this is where things were getting clunky in the back half and subplots started getting disjointed.

Yes, once Frank Castle is caught in episode 4, the show basically splits in half. Half of it becomes "the Punisher show, starring Matt's supporting cast", and the other half is "Daredevil versus the Hand starring Elektra and Stick." Matt briefly shows concern for the Punisher plot but its just scotch tape holding two separate shows together into one. Frank showing up at the end to help with the ninjas feels half-hearted. Also feeling half-hearted is Matt showing up on the boat to help Frank with the Blacksmith because for all the 'we should work together' 'maybe killing is right', Frank then fake-dies in a boat-explosion and Matt shrugs and goes back to the Hand plot and the Punisher plot resolves without any more of his involvement.

Put it another way, season 2 started with one plot (the Punisher plot), then introduced a second plot (the Elektra/Hand plot) about of a third of the way through. Then it slowly had that second plot take over, and then ended the season at the conclusion of the first plot and the halfway point of the second plot (with The Defenders being the back half of that second plot). It feels unfinished. It's weird. It's not like the plot was rushed or lost content or anything. It's more like it was cut in half somehow, and even the Punisher, and the resolution to the Blacksmith reveal, got the shaft at the end.

I don't usually go for the criticism of one plot taking time away from another, but seeing as a lot of season 2 ended up being the setup for not one but two spinoff shows, this season really should've just been the Hand season, since that was what Matt was dealing with front and center. That way, we wouldn't have the sense that what Matt is doing and what Foggy and Karen are doing have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Instead of the isolation between them being a plot point, the series tried to jump straight to juggling two entirely distinct main plots at the same time, and so we got a bunch of narratives that have nothing to do with each other. The Hand arc rode on the coattails of the Punisher's storyline, resulting in the Hand having no decent characterization whatsoever and the Punisher's arc getting a lackluster finish as the Hand took over the show.

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