Season 6 Episode 2 Discussion "Home"

[Marvolo]

Marvolo, you're forgetting that Jon Snow knows Bran is alive.

Not to mention Jon Snow has never been legitimized, you'd need the King's authority to do that.

As far as anyone knows, includng Jon, Bran is missing. Jon doesnt get daily updates telling him where Bran currently is and whether he is still alive.

And like I said, Stannis is dead and the Northern Lords that are not kissing Bolton ash most likely dont care about Tommen's authority. The only authority in the North right now is the Northern Lords. This is Northern business. If Jon decides to become a Stark, Tommen wont have a say in the matter. All that matters is that the Northern Lords recognize him as a Stark. If they do then they arent going to stand in the way of him declaring himself a Stark. And Tommen sure as **** isnt going to send an army North during winter just to stop Jon taking the Stark name and taking back Winterfell.

 

[Drz]

My point was, Jon Snow would "never" take the reigns, when he is fully aware of Bran and was the last person alive who saw him.

 

[Drizzle]

I just realized that the young man training Ned and Benjen in the flashback wasn't Ned's older brother Brandon, but a young Ser Rodrik.

 

[Matt]

His mother is Lyanna. He is a Stark even without a royal decree. Idk how he will prove it or if it even matters if he cant. I dont think the North gives a damn about some royal decree from Tommen. And Stannis is dead so a decree would be meaningless to most of the North. I think as long as he pledges himself a Stark to the North they would except him as a Stark because they believe he is Ned's son and they think he is Ned's last male heir. And Im thinking Sansa might claim him as a Stark too. Since she is pretty much the head of the House if she says he is a Stark then thats probably gonna be good enough for the Lords that are fighting against the Boltons.

I don't think that Westeros works that way. Bastards do not take their mother's name. They are not entitled to inherit through their mother's blood line any more than they are through their father. bad place, because women have virtually no rights in Westeros, if anything, Jon has a stronger claim to Winterfell and the North by claiming to be Ned's bastard.

If anything, Jon's strongest claim to the North is IF he is either Ned's bastard (though without being legitimized through royal decree it means nothing) or by claiming that he is the rightful heir to the Targaryen Dynasty (if R+L=J turns out to be true).

 

[WereCoyote]

I don't think that Westeros works that way. Bastards do not take their mother's name. They are not entitled to inherit through their mother's blood line any more than they are through their father. bad place, because women have virtually no rights in Westeros, if anything, Jon has a stronger claim to Winterfell and the North by claiming to be Ned's bastard.

If anything, Jon's strongest claim to the North is IF he is either Ned's bastard (though without being legitimized through royal decree it means nothing) or by claiming that he is the rightful heir to the Targaryen Dynasty (if R+L=J turns out to be true).

Yeah if R+L=J is true, then he is entitled to all of Westeros.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

in regards to R+L = J, does anyone alive know they we're married?

R was married to EM first, how could he marry L?

 

[Verick808]

If the North decides to accept him as a Stark Jon would be the oldest anyway. Bran was last seen heading North of the wall so I don't think Jon is going to wait to unite the North until he comes back, and he needs the North united after what he saw last season. He'd probably consider giving up control if Bran returned though.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Yeah if R+L=J is true, then he is entitled to all of Westeros.

Is he? Because R was still married to EM when he ran off with L. That makes J a bastard son again.

If he can truly inherit, then Gendry, one of Robert's twenty bastards, would have been heir to Westeros and Ned would have protected him and not sent that letter to Stannis informing him of his rightful claim.

 

[Silvermoon]

Didn't Targaryen's in the past practice polygamy? Could R not have married L making her his 2nd wife and any child legitimate/not a bastard (of course, it would depend on whether or not such a marriage would be recognized as 'valid')

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Not for two or three hundred years.

With the death of their dragons, House Targaryen lost the power and threat that they needed to be able to get away with committing the sin of polygamy in Westeros.
According to George R. R. Martin:
"Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object."

 

[TheFuture]

I just realized that the young man training Ned and Benjen in the flashback wasn't Ned's older brother Brandon, but a young Ser Rodrik.

Those mutton chops gave the game away. That and Rodrik being thè master of arms.

I gave myself a pat on the back for realising that one quickly, also for figuring out the big lad was Hodor.

 

[BestGirl]

What has he done to piss off the Lannisters and Tyrells?

Ramsay married Sansa, which would piss off the Lannisters, though the Tyrells probably wouldn't care too much about that.

 

[Miss Lois Lane]

It seems he just sensed the return of his master, which they kind of confirmed in the episode's Inside the Episode.

I didn't see Inside the Episode, can you please tell me what they said? I'm asking because the most popular fan-theory after ADWD was that Jon had warged into Ghost, and to me that had been confirmed by the way Ghost behaved, and with it happening when they were alone after everyone left the room. I'm thinking that way Jon can keep quiet about the warging (would give others a reason to be suspicious of him) and pretend it was Melisandre who brought him back.

Anyway, what an intense episode! It's so much fun but nerve-wracking to watch it without knowing what's coming - well there obviously will be things from the books still to come - but Roose being killed was a real shock. And what happened afterwards with Walda and the baby...I was thinking "Oh don't, just please don't" but I knew with Ramsay there was no way he wasn't going to do it.

I love that Tyrion and Varys are back together, they bring some much needed levity. Tyrion's scene with Rhaegal and Viserion was wonderful - such a good episode!

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

I didn't see Inside the Episode, can you please tell me what they said? I'm asking because the most popular fan-theory after ADWD was that Jon had warged into Ghost, and to me that had been confirmed by the way Ghost behaved, and with it happening when they were alone after everyone left the room. I'm thinking that way Jon can keep quiet about the warging (would give others a reason to be suspicious of him) and pretend it was Melisandre who brought him back.

Here's a link to the youtube clip:
Game of Thrones Season 6: Inside the Episode #2 (HBO)

A warg can't return to a corpse or heal and restore it to life. We also never saw Jon's eyes roll up when he died.

It was the Lord of Light who brought Jon back; Mel just submitted the request.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Even if Jon was entitled to Westeros, I don't see him wanting it. I think he'd probably want to reshape the Night's Watch, possibly as a Stark.

 

[Miss Lois Lane]

Here's a link to the youtube clip:
Game of Thrones Season 6: Inside the Episode #2 (HBO)

A warg can't return to a corpse or heal and restore it to life. We also never saw Jon's eyes roll up when he died.

It was the Lord of Light who brought Jon back; Mel just submitted the request.

Thank you very much And I actually like the Lord of Light theory better than warging - I must re-watch the episode as it's likely that I was watching with my preconceived idea that warging had happened.

Do you think that (book spoiler)

Spoiler

They might play out some or all of the Lady Stoneheart storyline with Jon?

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Thank you very much And I actually like the Lord of Light theory better than warging - I must re-watch the episode as it's likely that I was watching with my preconceived idea that warging had happened.

Do you think that (book spoiler)

Spoiler

They might play out some or all of the Lady Stoneheart storyline with Jon?

You're welcome!

Spoiler

A lot of people seem to be expecting that, and it's very likely. I provided a link in the OP to an article that gives GRRM's thoughts about bringing people back, how they are not fully back or the same -and shouldn't be! And I think the longer it takes, the greater the difference. Beric's resurrections happened immediately after death, while Jon's been dead almost a full day. LSH was several days.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I always thought the theory was that Mel would bring him back, but he wouldn't "lose" himself because he'd warg his mind/spirit into Ghost while waiting for his body to be ready.

 

[squeekness]

I always thought the theory was that Mel would bring him back, but he wouldn't "lose" himself because he'd warg his mind/spirit into Ghost while waiting for his body to be ready.

This was my thinking but the show hasn't shown us at all the other Stark kids were wargs like Bran even though they should have. Maybe them showing us that Ghost woke like that was like an Easter egg to those of us who knew that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

This was my thinking but the show hasn't shown us at all the other Stark kids were wargs like Bran even though they should have. Maybe them showing us the Ghost woke like was like an Easter egg to those of us who knew that.

I agree. I was simply talking about the book theory there.

 

[Miss Lois Lane]

Spoiler

A lot of people seem to be expecting that, and it's very likely. I provided a link in the OP to an article that gives GRRM's thoughts about bringing people back, how they are not fully back or the same -and shouldn't be! And I think the longer it takes, the greater the difference. Beric's resurrections happened immediately after death, while Jon's been dead almost a full day. LSH was several days.

I don't think I've read that article, will go have a look - thanks again for your helpfulness!

I always thought the theory was that Mel would bring him back, but he wouldn't "lose" himself because he'd warg his mind/spirit into Ghost while waiting for his body to be ready.

I was mistaken then by just concentrating on the warging, although I have a terrible memory so am not surprised! That adds an interesting dimension to Fist of Khonshu's comment in the spoiler tag.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

I always thought the theory was that Mel would bring him back, but he wouldn't "lose" himself because he'd warg his mind/spirit into Ghost while waiting for his body to be ready.

The Red God doesn't just revive bodies as waiting empty vessels, he puts the spirit back into them too, apparently.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The Red God doesn't just revive bodies as waiting empty vessels, he puts the spirit back into them too, apparently.

The problem is, it goes wrong.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

The problem is, it goes wrong.

Wrong is a point of view. From a deity's, it may be what's called for if it works toward a greater purpose. For GRRM's purposes, it works because he doesn't want anyone to return untransformed, as he's stated.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Wrong is a point of view. From a deity's, it may be what's called for if it works toward a greater purpose. For GRRM's purposes, it works because he doesn't want anyone to return untransformed, as he's stated.

Transformed is a very loose term. Especially considering the potential of Jon Snow.