Songs of eons past tell of battles between Mandalore The Great and an order of sorcerers called Jedi

Discussion in 'The Mandalorian' started by Mondragon, Sep 15, 2020.

  1. Iceman Daffy Duck Vs The Joker

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    Awesome quotes, and thanks for creating this thread for those of us who aren’t up to date.
     
  2. Mondragon My other Avi is Gaucho Mickey

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    I'm aware this is old news to anyone who watched Rebels; still I Just watched Rebels Season 4 Ep2 to see what all the hubub was about Bo having once received the Darksaber without a fight.
    And yeah Bo is straight up handed the Darksaber by Sabine without a problem, Bo then just holds it aloft, in-front of everyone who matters (several clans and their leaders) who then bow before her and recognize Bo as Mandalor's legit leader.
    I do like the "new" set up, but it absolutely seems to fly in the face of what was established there.
    So yeah Season 3 is really going to have to do some major retroactive filler, to explain why that did not take, (may be tied to how Gideon got the Darksaber to begin with) and why that won't work for Bo now, when it did before?

    Although even more surprising (since I 'v seen several of you discus the above) was I leaned that Sabine once helped the Empire build a weapon that can fry Mandalorians! specifically it's drawn to anyone wearing Beskar Armor!
    WTF! I had no idea!
    Was this "weapon" referenced as part of the Madalorian purge and scattering, I just missed it?
    I know she reprogrammed it, then helped destroy it, yet unless there is some magic secret, is there any reason it can't be rebuilt, reverse-engineered, come into play again?
    How much of a liability is the Beskar armor?
     
    #27 Mondragon, Dec 27, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  3. Sithborg Dark Forces Return

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    Considering that Bo-Katan has not respected the right of combat with the Darksaber twice now, and both times have lead to bad times for the Mandos, I can see her being shy to ignoring it a third time. Hell, it could be straight up as simple as no other Mandos will actually follow her without the rite of combat being respected.
     
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  4. KRYPTON INC. Incorporated Kryptonian

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    We still have to learn how she lost it and I think a part of it is that she was not considered legitimate by the more "traditionalist" or perhaps more extreme wings of the various Mandalorian factions because the sacred ways were not honored to the letter.


    Which... May well play into the particular mindset of the Covert Din was a part of.
     
  5. TheVileOne Registered

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    I still think my fan fiction rewrite of that scene would've answered all the questions and solved all the problems.

    Not saying this is the way they should or will do it. But basically, the way it was handed to her before and she ultimately lost it and didn't even die a warrior's death has made her a laughing stock. Like she's desperate to retake Mandalore and unite her people, but after losing the Darksaber the last time, none of what's left of the royal houses will take her seriously. People are doubting her prowess as a warrior, that's why she needed to win it back in battle this time. Maybe some of its unfair, but everyone's like, Well, we tried and it didn't work. And Bo Katan didn't cut the mustard, and she lost the Darksaber when she didn't even really gain it in battle in the first place. It's like the fickle voting public who will turn on someone in an instant.

    Granted, not sure how doing it behind closed doors and embellishing the story is better than getting it handed it to you in full view, but whatevs.
     
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  6. Sithborg Dark Forces Return

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    I mean, lets look at her record.

    The first time she tried to take control, after ignoring the rite of combat, it lead to the occupation of Mandalore by the Republic just as it became the Empire. Something everyone was telling her. Hell, it was a lot of what Satine was trying to prevent.

    The second time, trying to wrest their freedom from the Empire, it lead to "The Purge".

    I imagine any remaining Mandalorians may be hesitant to heed the call of Bo-Katan again.
     
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  7. Bim Registered

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    Great points, I've been wondering about this myself. I hope this is something that gets explored in season 3, because I think it's very interesting.
     
  8. TheVileOne Registered

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    I'm desperate to know what the Empire did to Mandalore that we never actually got to see.
     
  9. Mondragon My other Avi is Gaucho Mickey

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    Some questions: When the Armorer speaking of the Beskar that Djarin brought in, she says
    - "This was gathered in the Great Purge. It is good it is back with the Tribe."
    Is the "Great Purge"she is speaking of, the event where the Empire used Sabine's weapon against several Mandalorian tribes?
    Or is "the Great Purge" what Fett references when he said- “.. Mandalore? The Empire turned that planet to glass.”

    Are those the same event?

    Also what is the significance if any, of clan Vizsla (I mean besides that Favreau voiced both Pre and Paz)
    I imagine Favreau has some vested interest in where that character and allegiance lands?
    Does the narrative place their allegiance with the Armorer's clan? With Bo, Sabine, Death Watch etc.
    If there was further schism between tribes going forward, once all is told, which "way", or which leader would a Vizsla ultimately follow?
     
  10. Sithborg Dark Forces Return

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    I mean, the beskar had the Imprerial crest on it, so I have to assume the Empire took it when they killed Mandalore even more.

    As for Clan Vizsla, considering that Tarre Vizsla was the jedi who made the darksaber, they have to be one of the oldest and largest of mandalorian clans. We know Wren was under the banner of Vizsla. I don't think the coverts necessarily follow the clan/house dynamic, as I think hiding is more important.

    I imagine the Children of the Watch pretty much go into hiding until someone calls up the mandalorians again. I suspect the the Children of the Watch were in hiding after the pre-TPM civil war until Pre Vizsla ressurrected Death Watch.
     
  11. godisawesome Registered

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    I’m actually hoping she still has enough political allies to make her “pretender” claim formidable and give her a power broker role at minimum, to add an extra layer not just to her story, but to Din’s as well.

    Her sister Satine was an outright pacifist who rejected all traditional elements, but still managed to carry the title Duchess and rule Mandalore on pure political power. That would seem to indicate there are enough “secular” Mandalorian factions for whom the traditional claim to power don’t matter - as would the supporters who showed up for Bo-Katan *before* it could be known Sabine gave her the sabre.

    You want to make Din’s life difficult, and the story fun?

    Have Bo-Katan’s control over the secular Mandos mean the darksaber just doesn’t mean the same thing to them, but him having the darksaber means the the more religious clans would only recognize him...

    ...And add an extra-wrinkle by making Sabine Wren a secular Mando who’s claim on the darksaber is still considered good by the religious ones (since she “sanctified” the blade by defeating Gar Saxon when he seized it), and therefore someone Din could hope to unload the sabre on... but also maybe the only person who feels less cutout to be a Mandalorian leader than Din, since she created the Duchess weapon and gave the sabre away.

    I would love it if Din and Sabine met, especially since she should still be carrying Ezra’s sabre. They’re fully set-up to foil each other in their similarities and differences, and if they could have Sabine give Din the lightsaber lessons Kanan gave her, perhaps with some kind of parallel to her own struggles with it - I mean, Din hasn’t expressed any interest in being a Mandalorian leader, so having her make him face those ideas head on could be a dramatic moment.
     
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  12. TheVileOne Registered

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    It just seems like things are set up for some sort of Mandalorian power struggle with new Mandalorians, Children of the Watch, noble clans, etc.
     
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  13. Nathan_Koren This is the way...

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    I hope we get more about the history of the darksaber, than what we got in Rebels. it was explained by Fenn Rue that Tarre Visla was the creator of the very weapon that sabine stumbled upon on Dathomir and Visla was a Jedi Mandalorian conducted into the order. yes Sabine did wield the weapon for a short time but she felt the weapon was best suited to someone who could lead Mandalore against the might of the Empire. it would be cool though to see Sabine teach Din of how the darksaber works in combat. so i do like to see Din interacting with Sabine if she does show up.
     
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  14. TheVileOne Registered

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    What can Sabine really teach him about it though? She didn't know much about it herself and she didn't carry it that long. Seems like Moff Gideon could teach Din Djarin more about it than Sabine.
     
  15. Sithborg Dark Forces Return

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    I mean, the New Mandalorians rose out from the pre-TPM civil war. Which, going by the broad outlines of Open Season, was Death Watch vs the Protectors. And the warrior clans lost. Satine had power because her faction won. And the warriors, who I am willing to bet include the Children of the Watch, were exiled or went into hiding. The covert system doesn't strike me as something introduced when the Empire cracked down on the mandalorians. Given that civil wars seems to be a favorite pastime of Mandos, it would make sense for the Children of the Watch to go into hiding when they lose.

    About the only thing I want from Sabine to give to Din Djaren is a coat of paint.
     
  16. godisawesome Registered

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    Well, Gideon fought once so far, and lost the sabre. Sabine fought a stronger, more experienced warrior in a full duel with all their weapons, and won.

    From a real world standpoint, she didn’t have much time with it... but from an in universe perspective and in the episode focusing on her learning to use it, she had a pretty intensive two day training with it, justified on the basis that while she knew how to fight with a sword, a lighstaber is different in some ways that apparently are very physical, and with an implication that some other ways could be physical extensions of a mental state.

    Kanan and Sabine both confirm it’s heavier than expected for the type of weapon, with Kanan reminding the audience that a lightsaber is a current of energy instead of a physical blade, and spouting some info that claims your mental and emotional state impacts the blade, thus the ambiguity about how much of that exactly was true. I mean, kaiburr crystals are implied to have some genuine interaction with their builder and wielder, so the idea that even a non-Force user could impact their blade’s usage *might*have genuine merit.

    In fact, that’s sort of my head-canon explanation for Gideon’s loss to Din; Gideon hasn’t been trained in the more esoteric principles of the sabre, and thus while martially competent, isn’t quite as proficient as he needed to be.

    But beyond that...

    Sabine’s a pro-Jedi, pro-Republic Mando with her own history with the Empire, and who’s still holding on to Ezra’ sabre. The latter fact would be an easy excuse to have her still be martially proficient enough to train Din in using it... but it’s the former stuff that I want.

    I want someone to be the “white hat” Mando, pro-Democracy and more conventionally heroic, that Din ends up having as a counter-example to the also different authority figures of Bo-Katan and the Armorer.

    The story would be best realized diving into the grey moral areas of Mandalorian culture... but you actually need some of the lighter and more traditionally heroic Star Wars morality thrown in to really make those stand out. Sabine could bring that different perspective to Din’s world, even briefly, and that’s far more valuable than just the fanservice of the two meeting.

    Din needs to hear someone offer some balanced ideals about the New Republic and against some of Mandalore’s traditions. Sabine can do that, and speak with some authority on the subject that Bo, the former terrorist, and the Armorer, who pretty clearly seems to have served Maul, can’t.

    And while Rebels was uneven at times, Trials of the Darksaber is a genuinely great bit of Star Wars, and I doubt the imagination fo anyone who doesn’t see the potential in trying to make a spiritual sequel to it with Din in Sabine’s place. I mean, Din doesn’t have a reason to want to be Mandalore yet, and has lost what purpose he had for two seasons.

    Sounds like a perfect set-up for a sparring match that’s part physical practice and part existential crisis.

    ...Plus, they both have claims on the sabre, so there’s some political subtext that can be mined there as well.
     
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  17. Sithborg Dark Forces Return

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    So, the New Mandalorians?
     
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  18. TheVileOne Registered

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    Yeah but it's a melee weapon. It's not like Sabine is going to tell him how to unlock "Darksaber Techniques Lvl. 2."

    Also, Din Djarin clearly seems to be well versed on how to used edged and melee weaponry. Maybe Sabine could be an experienced sparring partner for Din Djarin but that's about it.

    Sabine holding onto Ezra's sabre doesn't mean she's a master of using it.
     
  19. godisawesome Registered

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    I want EVERYONE:
    • Children of the Watch, religious fanatics and nomads uninterested in the planet
    • Nite Owls, Bo Katan’s loyalists across all sections of Mandalorian society.
    • Other Noble Houses, all in Game of Thrones mode.
    • Ex-Imperial Super Commandos, now likely considered Dar’Manda collaborators.
    • New Mandalorian pacifists, to force Din to struggle with the most “un-Mandalorian” group that are not without some righteousness.
    • Mandalorian Mercs like Boba or the “Old Mandalorian” from the canonical tabletop and card games, who are nomadic pro-adoption groups but not religious fanatics.
    • Mandalorian Protectors, who serve the Mandalore specifically but also *ALL* Mandalorians, and get along with everyone who’s not ISC.
    • Possibly Pro-Republic Mandos, possibly affiliated with Sabine and Clan Wren.
    I want enough dark, light, and gray organizations that can’t even get along with their own closest moral equivalents, just to make Din have to grapple with some hard questions and conundrums.

    Eh, there’s two POVs I have here:
    1. If the characters have a dramatic interaction, that alone justifies them meeting for an episode or two, and even more so if it has philosophical and character writing like in Trials of the Darksaber. Even regardless of the physical training for using the darksaber, getting that kind fi character work could propel Din to even greater heights.
    2. ...it’s just a melee weapon to your regular Mandalorian, but in Star Wars, it’s also a Jedi Lightsaber with some Excalibur parallels that had an entire episode dedicated to training an *also* already skilled-in melee Sabine in using it for ostensibly important reasons.
    From the more strictly sci-fi perspective of Star Wars, it really should be *just* a fancy melee weapon, much like the beskad sabre that I’m hoping another Mando challenges Din with at some point next season. The only other thing it has then is a political utility as a propaganda tool.

    But from the more esoteric, pseudo-spiritual and fantasy perspective of Star Wars, it *can* be much more, like other Star Wars lightsabers have been at times. It doesn’t even have to be explicitly supernatural; merely having some ambiguous moments that can be read that way can lend dramatic weight and mythological meaning to some scenes. It’s a bit like the missed opportunity of the Skywalker sabre flying to Rey’s hand instead of Kylo’s - it can mean so much more than what it ostensibly is.

    So while I don’t need it to have any spiritual component, adding that to Din is a dramatic potential that I think would be useful in helping to further differentiate and develop him during the period where he and Grogu are separated.
     
  20. Adder Registered

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  21. Sithborg Dark Forces Return

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    If you want to see really cool things done with lightsabers, practically and philosophically, pick up Charles Soule's High Republic novel, Light of the Jedi. I am a big fan of what they've been doing with the kyber crystal, and its connection to the Force and to a Force user. "Making the crystal bleed" is one of my favorite things.

    I also now demand to see High Republic Mandalorians.
     
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