The decline of the Chris Reeve series.

[Deck Rickard]

Didn't they recast Superboy after one season?

I didn't mind Lois and Clark, it was ridiculous but fun most of the time - and a pretty decent Luthor.

I wonder what influence the Shazam movie will have on future Superman projects? If it does well, and from the shorts it looks like great fun ( in contrast to MCU Captain Marvel, which was okay IMO but a bit joyless) will Superman films become lighter or darker to distinguish them or just get shelved until it's time for a reboot ?

Yeah I think they did recast the lead on that show after one season.

I think that if Shazam does well then they should apply that formula to a Superman film. Of course, it will have to be different in some regards (Superman isn’t a child in an adult body) but they need to make a Superman movie FUN. Now, in regards to your other point, I didn’t find MCU Captain Marvel joyless at all; I thought it was also a lot of fun. Carol herself is a mostly serious character but the stuff with Fury, Talos and Goose had me in stitches. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course but some of the criticisms of the film leave me scratching my head a bit.

 

[Willi Berg]

I don't want Superman making too many quips or dancing etc. but the tone should be...somewhere in the middle. A mixture of light and dark. There should be a sense of adventure, but there can also be some grim, real-world stuff. Make Clark (the real Clark, from Smallville) more engaged with the world, reacting to the world around him, including serious real-life issues. Whether as a guy from Smallville or a reporter for the Daily Planet. Also, make the action fun. It should be thrilling when Superman does what he does. Not have the weight of the world on his shoulders all the time.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Yeah there needs to be a balance. Go too light and you don’t get the impression that there are any stakes. But if you go too dark then the movie is a miserable experience for everyone. Plenty of comics and animated films have been able to find the right tone. It baffles me that none of the big budget films this decade have been able to.

 

[Willi Berg]

Yeah there needs to be a balance. Go too light and you don’t get the impression that there are any stakes. But if you go too dark then the movie is a miserable experience for everyone. Plenty of comics and animated films have been able to find the right tone. It baffles me that none of the big budget films this decade have been able to.

There's an incredible pressure with Superman that everything has to be "important". It's a huge burden on him.

 

[Deck Rickard]

There's an incredible pressure with Superman that everything has to be "important". It's a huge burden on him.

Yeah, and I get that. But honestly, I don’t necessarily need to be inspired by a Superman movie. If it happens, great. But I’d settle for a Superman film that is just thrilling and fun.

 

[Willi Berg]

Yeah, and I get that. But honestly, I don’t necessarily need to be inspired by a Superman movie. If it happens, great. But I’d settle for a Superman film that is just thrilling and fun.

It doesn't have to be all one thing or the other. There can be a balance.

 

[Deck Rickard]

It doesn't have to be all one thing or the other. There can be a balance.

Oh I agree, I was just saying that at this point, I’d settle for a Superman film that was just pure fun.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I suggest to @Lantern Venom that a pretty massive degree of suspension of disbelief is necessary with Superman films - particularly these ones - because in the same way we don't see Zod actually die and his fate is ambiguous we also dont see thr consequences of Superman flying at amazing supersonic speeds at low levels in these films i.e. we don't see people being killed or buildings destroyed by the pressure wave that would follow him. For me, I thought they went too far with the time turn in STM. Still love the film but that bit has been bugging me for 40 years.

If we can forget about that then perhaps the biological limitations of Zod's mortality aren't so hard to accept either. And if Zod and co did actually die then at least Non killed himself and Lois killed Ursa.....

To each their own I guess. Cheers.

The concept of the ending is valid, it was just handled so ineptly that robs the moment of its purpose. Pre-Crisis Superman had flown through time in the comics, and I still believe that even 1978's special effects could have handled the necessary images of Kal opening a wormhole.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Everything that happens in the Donner film happens well within the purview of the concept of Superman from the Silver Age. Nothing he did in either I or II clashes with the way he was presented in the comics my mom and dad had read. Maybe ESPECIALLY the head scratching stuff or things we might find "goofy" today.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Everything that happens in the Donner film happens well within the purview of the concept of Superman from the Silver Age. Nothing he did in either I or II clashes with the way he was presented in the comics my mom and dad had read.

Did he ever give up his powers for Lois in any Pre-Crisis stories? I ask this because that's still my least favorite moment in any CBM as it seems antithetical to the core of Superman's personality. I remember him being robbed of his powers on a few occasions (including a weird story on an island where ash and clouds rendered him powerless) and deciding to start a life with Lois, but never a situation where he chose her over heroism.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Did he ever give up his powers for Lois in any Pre-Crisis stories? I ask this because that's still my least favorite moment in any CBM as it seems antithetical to the core of Superman's personality. I remember him being robbed of his powers on a few occasions (including a weird story on an island where ash and clouds rendered him powerless) and deciding to start a life with Lois, but never a situation where he chose her over heroism.

Off the top of my head with that particular question I would say no. But look at all the Silver Age covers or stories where Superman acted "out of character" only to have every thing be back at the status quo by the end of the issue. What happened in II whether the theatrical cut or the Donner cut? Everything is back to the status quo.

Besides... The thing about making these into live action movies, unless you want to have the depth of an average Power Rangers episode, is that being played by flesh and blood human beings you have to take that into consideration, no matter how idealized the character is, that they are just that, real people. Real people have doubts, resentments, emotional drives. Reeve's Supes is a man with the literal weight of the world on his shoulders who seems destined never to have the simple pleasures of life. At best as Daily Planet Clark he can go through the motions but never really be a part of the world, or at least I think it's reasonable to think he could feel that way. I think it's fine in an adaptation to explore that to show he has misgivings and feels pressures or resentments. It's not THE defining trait or anything but it's completely understandable and better grist for the dramatic mill than if he's completely and totally perfect with no misgivings or doubts whatsoever. Even Jesus cried out on the cross "My God, why have you forsaken me!" after all. And while I get the idea that Superman's connection to Lois should always be a strength, given the way it was portrayed in the Silver Age, let's not pretend that it's not also a complication, or at least it's not some kind of upending of the character to try to come to terms with that.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Off the top of my head with that particular question I would say no. But look at all the Silver Age covers or stories where Superman acted "out of character" only to have every thing be back at the status quo by the end of the issue. What happened in II whether the theatrical cut or the Donner cut? Everything is back to the status quo.

Besides... The thing about making these into live action movies, unless you want to have the depth of an average Power Rangers episode, is that being played by flesh and blood human beings you have to take that into consideration, no matter how idealized the character is, that they are just that, real people. Real people have doubts, resentments, emotional drives. Reeve's Supes is a man with the literal weight of the world on his shoulders who seems destined never to have the simple pleasures of life. At best as Daily Planet Clark he can go through the motions but never really be a part of the world, or at least I think it's reasonable to think he could feel that way. I think it's fine in an adaptation to explore that to show he has misgivings and feels pressures or resentments. It's not THE defining trait or anything but it's completely understandable and better grist for the dramatic mill than if he's completely and totally perfect with no misgivings or doubts whatsoever. Even Jesus cried out on the cross "My God, why have you forsaken me!" after all. And while I get the idea that Superman's connection to Lois should always be a strength, given the way it was portrayed in the Silver Age, let's not pretend that it's not also a complication, or at least it's not some kind of upending of the character to try to come to terms with that.

I won't argue the point that there's almost an editorial free-for-all with pre-Crisis DC. There are some truly weird and wonderful moments, but consistent presentation of characters is rare.

As much as the DCEU Supes' occasional lethal methods are questioned, that pales in comparison to the Donner Supes leaving behind his duty to jump between the sheets with Lois. That still causes me to scratch my head. That being said, Supes certainly had his moments of D-baggery in his early incarnations, so I've always wondered if there was some stray comic out there where he did something to inspire that cinematic moment.

 

[Willi Berg]

I would much prefer a movie examine Superman's relationship with Lois while still being Superman. Explore the complication rather than him having to make a choice. It doesn't have to be an either/or thing.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I would much prefer a movie examine Superman's relationship with Lois while still being Superman. Explore the complication rather than him having to make a choice. It doesn't have to be an either/or thing.

No it doesn't and the Post Crisis comics did that pretty damned good. My preference will always be to have them together as a couple and her aware of his "secret". I prefer her as par of his life in total. But to my mind that's not to say that the Donner film is illegitimate in it's version of examining Superman being with a human woman and what he might feel about his role in light of that simple pleasure being denied him given the silver age portrayal they were working off of.

 

[STARMAN]

They had a Superman marathon last week. I caught bits and pieces of it while doing chores. From the little I saw it reinforced my enjoyment of Superman III over Superman II. By no means is Superman III a good movie. There are a few good scenes mixed in with all the bad but I was at least entertained by parts of it. Some of the amusement comes from the it's so bad element of it. Yet from what I caught last week it did not seem boring compared to chunks of Superman II which put me to sleep.

 

[Willi Berg]

They had a Superman marathon last week. I caught bits and pieces of it while doing chores. From the little I saw it reinforced my enjoyment of Superman III over Superman II. By no means is Superman III a good movie. There are a few good scenes mixed in with all the bad but I was at least entertained by parts of it. Some of the amusement comes from the it's so bad element of it. Yet from what I caught last week it did not seem boring compared to chunks of Superman II which put me to sleep.

As bad as they are, Superman III and IV have a certain comic-book feel and tone that is fun but then is unfortunately overwhelmed by all the bad parts. Same with Supergirl.

 

[3rdstone]

As bad as they are, Superman III and IV have a certain comic-book feel and tone that is fun but then is unfortunately overwhelmed by all the bad parts. Same with Supergirl.

I agree. One factor is that Reeve (at least to me) seemed to still enjoy doing these and put in much effort, even though the final products came out inferior.

Supergirl had IMHO as well a charming lead in Slater which somewhat "helped" against all the flawed parts. Also, haven't seen Supergirl in decades, but IIRC didn't her flying scenes looked really good for that era?

 

[Dr.]

....Also, haven't seen Supergirl in decades, but IIRC didn't her flying scenes looked really good for that era?

Yes; superior even to STM - one of the very few things Supergirl got right.

 

[Willi Berg]

The flying scenes in Supergirl were great. Also the way she was in awe of realising she could fly the first time and testing her powers.

Even the Phantom Zone in 'Supergirl' was pretty cool and had nice effects.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

The flying scenes in Supergirl were great. Also the way she was in awe of realising she could fly the first time and testing her powers.

Even the Phantom Zone in 'Supergirl' was pretty cool and had nice effects.

Completely agree. I thought the flying in Supergirl was better than the flying in any of the Reeve movies. I loved Helen Slater in the role. It may not be a great film but in its own way it's still one of my favourite CBMs and one that I'm happy to own

 

[3rdstone]

Damnit, now I need to rewatch Supergirl. Never thought I'd say that 20+ years later lol. But I'm glad I remembered the flying scenes right (and I guess adorable Helen Slater).

 

[Willi Berg]

Damnit, now I need to rewatch Supergirl. Never thought I'd say that 20+ years later lol. But I'm glad I remembered the flying scenes right (and I guess adorable Helen Slater).

I re-watched it again after a long time and I must say it is very hard to sit through the Faye Dunaway Selena witch stuff. And the dazed love interest stuff. And the boarding school stuff isn't so great either. But if you're patient enough to sit through them then there is that good stuff like:

-The opening scenes of Argo City look great.

-Supergirl discovering the power of flight.

-Supergirl in the Phantom Zone.

-The invisible monster? I guess?

-Helen Slater was just great casting.

-Jerry Goldsmith music is nice. Maybe not one of his major works, but still nice.

-It's the 80s! Like Wonder Woman 1984, it's Supergirl 1984!

 

[Deck Rickard]

I loved Helen Slater as Kara but wow is that movie bad. It should be a cautionary tale whenever superhero fans start high-fiving each other over prestigious actors being cast in CBMs. Here you had film legends Faye Dunaway and Peter O’Toole turning in two of the most embarrassing performances in their careers.

 

[Vader's Fist]

I don't think I've heard anything concrete on the matter but was Donner planning on doing any more movies after II or did he intend to just make a duology?

As a side note, I used to flat out hate it, but lately I've come to have a soft spot for the Superman III we ended up getting. It does have some interesting stuff in it like the evil Superman. I don't know if it's based on early concept art or whatever, but according to the novelization there's a chance he might have looked even scarier with glowing green eyes and a completely black suit. Wish we could have seen that.

 

[C. Lee]

I don't think I've heard anything concrete on the matter but was Donner planning on doing any more movies after II or did he intend to just make a duology?

When he was hired, the Salkinds were planning just the two movies, so all he was working towards were two.