The Fortress of Solitude: The Superman Lounge

[routhman]

Ok. Hot take here, but John Williams is incredibly overrated. I say this because of his over-reliance upon the brass and wind sections. That’s why everything seems so big and bold: he just audibly overwhelms you.
His best score and probably the only one that I can think of that is more understated and has good use of strings is Schindler’s List.
Second might be Jurassic Park. But too often his pieces seem unbalanced. Even though I like it, the Krypton Overture from S:TM doesn’t even have strings in it, which is kind of crazy.

I agree he’s heavy on brass and wind, and that his music can be bombastic, but that isn’t always the case. See Hook for a more delicate score with significant strings.

I don’t think he’s overrated at all, though. His scores have serious emotional resonance and pleasing, memorable melody. Not only that, but he’s a master of setting tone, whether it’s fantasy (STM, ET), swashbuckling adventure (Hook, Jurassic Park, Star Wars, Indiana Jones), or horror (Jaws). It’s not an accident that the most memorable scores of the past 50 years have largely come from him, and that iconic characters (Vader, Jaws, Superman) have been largely buttressed by his sound.

I will say that some of his work can feel somewhat repetitive. But I can say that about many composers. Most people have their own identifiable style.

 

[Babillygunn]

I agree he’s heavy on brass and wind, and that his music can be bombastic, but that isn’t always the case. See Hook for a more delicate score with significant strings.

I don’t think he’s overrated at all, though. His scores have serious emotional resonance and pleasing, memorable melody. Not only that, but he’s a master of setting tone, whether it’s fantasy (STM, ET), swashbuckling adventure (Hook, Jurassic Park, Star Wars, Indiana Jones), or horror (Jaws). It’s not an accident that the most memorable scores of the past 50 years have largely come from him, and that iconic characters (Vader, Jaws, Superman) have been largely buttressed by his sound.

I will say that some of his work can feel somewhat repetitive. But I can say that about many composers. Most people have their own identifiable style.

I think those are all valid points.
I will say this: He is a great film composer. He is a pretty good but not great orchestral composer. If that makes sense.

 

[emielaen]

This is not on a "shoe string budget" lol what are we talking about

 

[Gu3ree]

I think the world, as messed up as it is, deserves a good Superman. I don't think Cavill can be that. And if the only place you can find him being one is one mid-credit scene, in what would've been his third movie, I think that says it all.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[Gu3ree]

Ok. Hot take here, but John Williams is incredibly overrated. I say this because of his over-reliance upon the brass and wind sections. That’s why everything seems so big and bold: he just audibly overwhelms you.
His best score and probably the only one that I can think of that is more understated and has good use of strings is Schindler’s List.
Second might be Jurassic Park. But too often his pieces seem unbalanced. Even though I like it, the Krypton Overture from S:TM doesn’t even have strings in it, which is kind of crazy.

It doesn't need strings. The Superman theme by John Williams is a masterpiece. Hans Zimmer's theme doesn't even compare. It's repetitive with limited harmony. Williams' Jurassic Park theme I think, is overrated.

 

[Gu3ree]

Sure. A warmer, friendlier, less British-looking version of Cavill. In other words, more Superman-looking.

What does a British person look like?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What does a British person look like?

 

[Gu3ree]

And all British people look EXACTLY the same!! Can you tell me what an American looks like?

 

[Babillygunn]

It doesn't need strings. The Superman theme by John Williams is a masterpiece. Hans Zimmer's theme doesn't even compare. It's repetitive with limited harmony. Williams' Jurassic Park theme I think, is overrated.

Dude, you really come out swinging!

Sorry. I’m a full orchestra guy. I don’t like band pieces and I don’t like string orchestras. I need it all and I need it balanced.

One of my sons performs in multiple orchestras, two of which are string only. He doesn’t like those and neither do I or his mother. There is something amazing about a piece that marries the brass, winds, percussion and strings

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And all British people look EXACTLY the same!! Can you tell me what an American looks like?

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

What does a British person look like?

To be fair, several past Supermen, including Reeve and Corenswet (through his maternal line), are of British ancestry. I believe @flickchick85 was speaking to Cavill's mannerisms and body language, however, not so much his actual genetics. That isn't to say that all British actors are incapable of playing farm boy characters like Supes. Cavil simply isn't among the ones who can do so convincingly.

 

[Enriquespy]

As it is to be expected, the UK colonized Kripton at least once and left traces of their DNA in the population...

 

[Gu3ree]

To be fair, several past Supermen, including Reeve and Corenswet (through his maternal line), are of British ancestry. I believe @flickchick85 was speaking to Cavill's mannerisms and body language, however, not so much his actual genetics. That isn't to say that all British actors are incapable of playing farm boy characters like Supes. Cavil simply isn't among the ones who can do so convincingly.

There's no telling what an American or British person looks like. From what I read, Corenswet has Russian ancestry. The American white people are descended from the British! Is Superman supposed to look like an American or British person? Not that this logic even makes sense...he's an alien. Looking like Superman and being able to act like Superman is what's more relevant. Doesn't matter what the actor's nationality is. And for the record, does Tyler Hoechilin look like the character? Does he look more like Superman than Cavill or Corenswet?

 

[Babillygunn]

I think the reference to “looking British” is a reference to mannerisms and stiff posture more than physical appearance or genetics.

Can you tell me what an American looks like?

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

There's no telling what an American or British person looks like. From what I read, Corenswet has Russian ancestry. The American white people are descended from the British! Is Superman supposed to look like an American or British person? Not that this logic even makes sense...he's an alien. Looking like Superman and being able to act like Superman is what's more relevant. Doesn't matter what the actor's nationality is. And for the record, does Tyler Hoechilin look like the character? Does he look more like Superman than Cavill or Corenswet?

Yeah, again, I think she was referring to things like body language, demeanor, etc. Your on-screen appearance is influenced by all of that. Cavill, in particular, exudes a very self-serious air that's exacerbated when he attempts to speak with his middling American accent. He far too often makes the mistake of over-enunciating his words, which comes across as extremely stiff.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

There's no telling what an American or British person looks like. From what I read, Corenswet has Russian ancestry. The American white people are descended from the British! Is Superman supposed to look like an American or British person? Not that this logic even makes sense...he's an alien. Looking like Superman and being able to act like Superman is what's more relevant. Doesn't matter what the actor's nationality is. And for the record, does Tyler Hoechilin look like the character? Does he look more like Superman than Cavill or Corenswet?

Not all. Not close. And fun fact. Not all American or British people are white!

As for Clark Kent. He's suppose to have the vibe of an American farm boy.

Tyler is a perfect Clark. Haven't seen David in the role to judge him yet.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I rooted for Cavill back in the day, but scenes like this became too hard to ignore. He sounds so damn lifeless and robotic.

 

[Gu3ree]

Not all. Not close. And fun fact. Not all American or British people are white!

As for Clark Kent. He's suppose to have the vibe of an American farm boy.

Tyler is a perfect Clark. Haven't seen David in the role to judge him yet.

What kind of analogy is that to say I said all Americans and British people are white? You sent pictures of what an American looks like (Corenswet picture) and what a British person looks like (Cavill photo)...hmm.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What kind of analogy is that to say I said all Americans and British people are white? You sent pictures of what an American looks like (Corenswet picture) and what a British person looks like (Cavill photo)...hmm.

That's not what an analogy is.

 

[routhman]

This is not on a "shoe string budget" lol what are we talking about

Really, I’m just wondering whether the budget is lower than we’d expect from this property (e.g. like $120 million for Shazam) or if the budget is that of a tentpole film (e.g. 250+ million). As far as I’m aware, we don’t know what it is, and the cast/crew doesn’t seem to consist of truly major players that would typically inflate the budget.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Really, I’m just wondering whether the budget is lower than we’d expect from this property (e.g. like $120 million for Shazam) or if the budget is that of a tentpole film (e.g. 250+ million). As far as I’m aware, we don’t know what it is, and the cast/crew doesn’t seem to consist of truly major players that would typically inflate the budget.

There is a lot of room between 120m and 250m for a tentpole. I can't imagine anyone arguing a 185m movie isn't a proper big budget tentpole.

 

[DKDetective]

To be fair, several past Supermen, including Reeve and Corenswet (through his maternal line), are of British ancestry. I believe @flickchick85 was speaking to Cavill's mannerisms and body language, however, not so much his actual genetics. That isn't to say that all British actors are incapable of playing farm boy characters like Supes. Cavil simply isn't among the ones who can do so convincingly.

I think the reference to “looking British” is a reference to mannerisms and stiff posture more than physical appearance or genetics.

In addition to the mannerisms and body language, there are certain physical traits that can be especially "British looking" among white Britons. They tend to be traits most associated with the upper classes due to their heavy intermarriage, as seen in the Royal Family, such as prominent teeth. There is also typically less use of orthodontics than in America. Cavill coming from an affluent family does have some of those physical traits.

 

[DKDetective]

I say this with all due respect as a German-Canadian who looks very, very German.

 

[routhman]

There is a lot of room between 120m and 250m for a tentpole. I can't imagine anyone arguing a 185m movie isn't a proper big budget tentpole.

Those are just illustrative numbers. I don’t know what you’d consider high or low, and I don’t know what the distribution of costs for these things is. My main question is whether it’s lower or higher than the norm.

To look at specific numbers, if you insist:

STM = 55 million (1978) => 265 million (adjusted for 2024)
SR = 204 million (2006) => 320 million (adjusted for 2024)
MOS = 225 million (2013) => 300 million (adjusted for 2024)
BvS = 250 million (2016) => 330 million (adjusted for 2024)

The mean is $304 million. Anything below $250 million would be much lower than the norm for this property. Even $185 million would be 40% lower than the mean.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Those are just illustrative numbers. I don’t know what you’d consider high or low, and I don’t know what the distribution of costs for these things is. My main question is whether it’s lower or higher than the norm.

To look at specific numbers, if you insist:

STM = 55 million (1978) => 265 million (adjusted for 2024)
SR = 204 million (2006) => 320 million (adjusted for 2024)
MOS = 225 million (2013) => 300 million (adjusted for 2024)
BvS = 250 million (2016) => 330 million (adjusted for 2024)

The mean is $304 million. Anything below $250 million would be much lower than the norm for this property. Even $185 million would be 40% lower than the mean.

Dune Part 2 cost 190m.

The Batman, 185-200m.

Furiosa, 168m.

Wonka, 128m.

Barbie, 128-145m.

These are all big, effects heavy, tentpole movies from the same studio that came out in the last 2 years.