The Oppressive Growing Police State

[warhorse78]

The information can be used to block and intimidate all opposition to government programs and policies. Tyrannical CIA head J Edgar Hoover was adamant on wiretapping and blackmailing opposition, including Martin Luther King Jr.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/31/mlk.fbi.conspiracy/

What happens if the government has juicy embarrassing information about your personal life....might motivate you to step down from protesting a decision the government is making, wouldn't it? Maybe not, but you would at least consider it.

That's why our Founders were so adamant on fourth and fifth amendment in Constitution. The government has an huge disposal of arsenal to try prosecute and indict loads of individuals who were causing a problem. No matter how squeaky clean you think you are, a vindictive government official who had access to your personal information could probably find something...taxes, finances, relationships, speeding ticket, social activity..in your life to create a reason to prosecute you. You didn't dot your i on your taxes and you told your girlfriend over the phone....time to prosecute. You're uncertain whether you were allowed to carry friend's package of goods over border..time to prosecute.
This government doesn't have resources (thank God) to indict every little trivial incident that occurs within their borders...but allowing warrantless wiretaps would allow officials to hypocritically target those they don't like...like the IRS did to the Tea Party. The Founderes were adament on making sure the Fourth, Fifth, and Eighth Amendment get into the Constitution to prevent ridiculous and selective overprosecution for political enemies of the current occupants of high office. Why give the government more ammunition to harrass and bully you around?

About all of this phone tapping without warrants. Well, I always thought, they can do that, but without a warrant, they can't use what they found against you in a court of law. I also thought in many states, there are laws now that require anybody who wants to record a conversation with somebody, must let the other party know that they are going to be recording them, and if they record them without prior knowledge, all of it will be inadmissable. It's why when you are calling some corporation like your credit card or bank, they have that "your call is being recorded for training purposes" when we all know it really isn't being recorded for training purposes.

 

[Kelly]

About all of this phone tapping without warrants. Well, I always thought, they can do that, but without a warrant, they can't use what they found against you in a court of law. I also thought in many states, there are laws now that require anybody who wants to record a conversation with somebody, must let the other party know that they are going to be recording them, and if they record them without prior knowledge, all of it will be inadmissable. It's why when you are calling some corporation like your credit card or bank, they have that "your call is being recorded for training purposes" when we all know it really isn't being recorded for training purposes.

They aren't really "recording" the conversations at this point...BUT, as far as our government goes these days, I don't really trust them with anything.

 

[amazingfantasy15]

Not often I agree with Sentinel, but he's right on the money.

Right now it's just snooping (which btw is already a bad thing), tomorrow it's everything else. Intimidation, blackmail, censorship, etc.

That's the kind of environment crap like this fosters.

Which would make you think politicians would be a bit more interested in all this. Just imagine what an unscrupulous president (or perhaps at this point I should say "a more unscrupulous president") could do with dirt on senators and congresspeople. We're talking phone records, e-mails, text messages, photos, etc.

Not to mention of course journalists, whistleblowers, etc.

You obviously don't follow politics do you. This happens already, once a person hits the campaigns trail, every dirty little secret about them is out there, the higher the climb the more is revealed. Politicians are already being intimdated by corporations and lobbiests, just look at the background checks for guns vote 90% of the public agreed with it, yet it was voted down. Why? The NRA, they probably threatened every republican for voted in favor of it that their funded would go poof if they didn't vote it down.

Personally, this doesn't really worry me, it's a non-issue, it's been happening since 9/11 and probably before. Besides people share too much on social media as it is. If you're on Twitter and use it often, you shouldn't complain because you're already oversharing you life with everyone, one of your followers may be the personal NSA agent assigned to you. However, in reality, let me know how much your life has changed since 9/11 freedom wise. For me, there's been no change, outside of the ridiculousness of airport security. The Men in Black aren't coming for Joe Public. However, if they do happen upon Joe Pedophile or Joe Terrorist or Johnny I'm gonna shoot up my school, then it's worth it.

 

[Thundercrack85]

You obviously don't follow politics do you.

Sure don't. This is my first time posting in this section.

Personally, this doesn't really worry me, it's a non-issue, it's been happening since 9/11 and probably before. Besides people share too much on social media as it is. If you're on Twitter and use it often, you shouldn't complain because you're already oversharing you life with everyone, one of your followers may be the personal NSA agent assigned to you. However, in reality, let me know how much your life has changed since 9/11 freedom wise. For me, there's been no change, outside of the ridiculousness of airport security. The Men in Black aren't coming for Joe Public. However, if they do happen upon Joe Pedophile or Joe Terrorist or Johnny I'm gonna shoot up my school, then it's worth it.

Right by this logic, because you tweet about what you had for breakfast, the government should have access to all your phone records, and e-mails.

People like you are the reason liberal democracies die.

Next you're probably going to say "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear."

 

[Kelly]

"He's why Democracies die" ? good grief, chill out.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Okay, perhaps I could have been less hyperbolic.

I find the suggestion that people should be okay with a government infringing on the rights of millions because it could stop some would-be criminals troubling.

And at this rate, with things like the Patriot Act, and PRISM, it's a slippery slope, to a considerably less free world. Every year the free world seems less and less free.

 

[Kelly]

Okay, perhaps I could have been less hyperbolic.

I find the suggestion that people should be okay with a government infringing on the rights of millions because it could stop some would-be criminals troubling.

And at this rate, with things like the Patriot Act, and PRISM, it's a slippery slope, to a considerably less free world. Every year the free world seems less and less free.

I agree...

 

[amazingfantasy15]

Okay, perhaps I could have been less hyperbolic.

I find the suggestion that people should be okay with a government infringing on the rights of millions because it could stop some would-be criminals troubling.

And at this rate, with things like the Patriot Act, and PRISM, it's a slippery slope, to a considerably less free world. Every year the free world seems less and less free.

What of your freedoms have been infringed upon? I'm not saying that I think it's right for the government to be listening in on phone calls, but I also don't think they're doing it randomly and it's been happening for almost 12 years now, I haven't noticed a single thing. I can go where I want when I want, I can what I want, when I want. I keep hearing that it's infringing on our freedom, but I haven't noticed any freedoms I've had taken away.

 

[Thundercrack85]

What of your freedoms have been infringed upon? I'm not saying that I think it's right for the government to be listening in on phone calls, but I also don't think they're doing it randomly and it's been happening for almost 12 years now, I haven't noticed a single thing. I can go where I want when I want, I can what I want, when I want. I keep hearing that it's infringing on our freedom, but I haven't noticed any freedoms I've had taken away.

Good thing you don't share the same name as anyone on the no-fly list, I suppose. Then again, that really wasn't in the Patriot Act, it's just something it enabled.

Here's a rather long list of issues:

http://www.nyclu.org/pdfs/eroding_liberty.pdf

The erosion of the 6th Amendment probably should trouble you though. Since, the Patriot Act there has also been the NDAA, which authorizes indefinite detentions.

Of course, I imagine it probably won't affect you directly - at least not now (probably). But the Patriot Act has been a building block for similar laws, which might well one day actually affect you personally.

Plus I do kind of consider having my privacy violated an infringement of my rights.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

True, but I will not paint the great majority of law enforcement with the same brush that I paint the very few.....

Just as I would hope that people would not do the same in the area of education....EVEN THOUGH, I believe that we are at a far greater threat from horrible teachers, than we are from bad cops..... One holds the future of our country in their hands...

So, forgive me, if I find that our governments seemingly unending desire to focus on "gun issues" rather than "education issues" as a much bigger threat to this countries future...than a few bad cops.

The greatest threat to civilization is a police state.

What good is literacy when literature can be banned?

What good is writing and speaking skill if it's tightly constricted?

What good is the ability to interpret information if the government decides what information we have access to?

What good is the ability to reason and know the constitution when the government can take away due process when it suits them?

Then there's issues of faith, art, and privacy that can be stripped not to mention torture and other human rights violations.

I agree the problem is much bigger than ”a few” abusive cops. A police state is bigger than Rodney King, it's an entire society unable to truly see, hear, speak, think, breath or grow.

Teachers and police are both abundant in a police state but the goal is quite different than a free society. If you want to teach children anything teach them what that difference is and what side to always be on.

The side of civil liberties and human rights over everything else.

Without civil liberties the three ”R's” are rendered useless.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

What of your freedoms have been infringed upon? I'm not saying that I think it's right for the government to be listening in on phone calls, but I also don't think they're doing it randomly and it's been happening for almost 12 years now, I haven't noticed a single thing. I can go where I want when I want, I can what I want, when I want. I keep hearing that it's infringing on our freedom, but I haven't noticed any freedoms I've had taken away.

You don't know how that information and power will be used at any point.

They spy on everyone including the president.

Do you truly believe all that data will only be used to stop a few sandal wearing jihadist.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Where's the public oversight? Do you trust the CIA and NSA leaders to determine the fate of our nation till the end of time?

In a democracy the people have the right to create a more perfect union. How do we know we have those rights when journalist, teachers, lawyers, politicians, students, activist, community leaders, business leaders, artist, US presidents, etc are being spied on in the name of ”national security” by secretive, omnipotent spy agencies?

Many great American presidents have warned us about this kind of thing. What did they know or realize that you don't?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Think historically about people who protected their civil liberties ”too much” versus those who didn't protect them enough.

Now I ask you, what was worse.

Also is there such a thing as too much protection of civil liberties.

Civil liberties include the freedom of press, freedom of religion, due process, right to privacy, no torture, right to protest, right to assemble.

Can you defend these things too much?

I know 9-11 was bad, but do some of you realize how many millions of people died to protect these liberties?

Why would anyone easily hand them over to stop terrorism that hurt 0.001 percent of the population 12 years ago? There's still over 300 million Americans unimpacted by terrorism. Why must we be spied on? It's almost comical how blind the NSA defenders can be.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Not all phone conversations are dull and pointless.

There are hundreds of topics people can discuss that pose no physical threat to anyone that the government rather they not discuss.

Will any conversation force the NSA or CIA to blackbag millions and put them in concentration camps? no

Could they use counter-intelligence to derail grassroots, community, activist, and political activity? Of course and there's plenty of historical precedent for this.

 

[Cosmic]

^I don't disagree with the above. I think it's good that some people are critical and skeptical of government surveillance programs. Ideally, we all should be. And I believe paranoia in small doses is a good thing. But some of this stuff is a little over the top, even for me. The honest, unspoken truth is that the spy agencies were far more abusive in the past. Most people just have no idea!

So, while some people are honestly standing up for our civil liberties, there are others who are simply fear-mongers. They look for anything they can use to stir people up in order to push their own political or economic agenda. For example, the clip that someone posted of Sean Hannity from FOX doing a complete reversal of his views on surveillance, as if he never defended the programs before. Also, people are even acting as if the NSA hasn't been around for more than 50 years, or like they never heard of the Patriot Act and had no idea that it would actually be used. Just sayin'.

I'm personally not afraid of the NSA, or the FBI. Maybe the CIA a little. What really bothers me is the harassment and abusive actions of bad cops. Don't get me wrong, I'm completely respectful to and grateful for all the good cops who are risking their lives and helping people every day. But I fear a cop on patrol who has nothing better to do than to single me out for DWB, or screw me over on some BS, more than anything from the federal govt. That YouTube video of Xtrav getting taken down and arrested for drinking some tea is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

But this thread is about a broad, far-reaching police state.

Not random cases of police brutality/abuse.

I guess the main difference is a police state is institutional or even nation-wide abuse of civil liberties and police brutality is individual and isolated cases of police ignoring civil liberties.

We can make another thread to discuss the latter.

 

[Destructus86]

How ya all like being spied on by drones? Feel safe? Or feel controlled?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Bush-era NSA whistleblower claims they ordered a wiretap of Obama in 2004 (as well as a wiretap of law makers, diplomats, etc).

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Here's the actual link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...bama_n_3473538.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003

 

[Kelly]

Though I wouldn't put it past the Bush administration doing this...the timing of this kinda smells. And not a whole lot of facts. Maybe more can be put out later, but right now, kinda fishy.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

They aren't really "recording" the conversations at this point...

Actually we don't know that and honestly we never will.
And I don't see an iota of difference in the Bush and Obama presidencies on this issue or the war or the economy or several other issues...

 

[Kelly]

Actually we don't know that and honestly we never will.
And I don't see an iota of difference in the Bush and Obama presidencies on this issue or the war or the economy or several other issues...

Way to leave out the rest of my quote...

I think the rest of my quote pretty much tells you how I feel about it. I don't trust government... I work in a government job that shows me each and every day that they have absolutely no clue what the hell they are doing. : )

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Way to leave out the rest of my quote...

I think the rest of my quote pretty much tells you how I feel about it. I don't trust government... I work in a government job that shows me each and every day that they have absolutely no clue what the hell they are doing. : )

They know what they're doing.

They're creating worker ants instead of thinking ants.

 

[Kelly]

They know what they're doing.

They're creating worker ants instead of thinking ants.

Who is they? The government?

I'm not creating worker ants, not by a long shot. There are many teachers like me in that way of thinking as well. What I'm speaking of is the mediocrity in our education system. Allowing teachers to continue to teach that have no business being in a classroom. Making it almost impossible to get rid of them because of unions and other teacher organizations. Throwing money at idea after idea, instead of going to the people on the front lines who know what they hell they are talking about. People making decisions that have absolutely no idea what the hell they are talking about. That government...that's the one I'm talking about. They just need to get the hell out of the way and let good teachers teach, and let bad teachers know where the door is...

 

[Thundercrack85]

To be fair to the mediocre teachers everywhere (someone has to stand up for them, damn it), the students are no prize either.

I've had some lousy teachers, but I've always had lousier classmates. I've seen good, idealistic teachers come in, and by the time I left that school (we're talking two, three years tops), they had lost all enthusiasm. Some of them even looked like they had aged dramatically.

So, I think as much blame lies with the parents, as the teachers, and the government.

 

[Kelly]

To be fair to the mediocre teachers everywhere (someone has to stand up for them, damn it), the students are no prize either.

I've had some lousy teachers, but I've always had lousier classmates. I've seen good, idealistic teachers come in, and by the time I left that school (we're talking two, three years tops), they had lost all enthusiasm. Some of them even looked like they had aged dramatically.

So, I think as much blame lies with the parents, as the teachers, and the government.

I've been teaching 22 years. There is an art to classroom management. I have had the spectrum from brilliant to murderer. I can't go into it here as to what that art is, but when teachers learn it, they can teach. Unfortunately, what we do with our first -- five year teachers is to give them the worst classes, the biggest classes, etc. That is not how I mentor. I take those classes and I give my mentee the pre-AP classes, with a couple of regular classes so that they can learn that art. It will happen, if we give them time to learn it, and we allow them to breath those first 5 years. Teachers, Administration etc....usually screw that up. Many and I mean MANY teachers feel that once they have put their time in, they should be able to sit back relax with pre AP and AP classes and the newbies should take the crappy classes. That is totally opposite of what good schools do. There are schools in New York that take the lowest scoring students, usually 3 to 4 years behind in reading, etc. They pay their teachers upwards of 150,000-160,000. The teachers are not under contract so they can be fired on the spot. They work upwards of 50+ hours a week, most good teachers do. They work together as a team, the students usually move up 2 reading levels each year. Their test scores have not been spectacular these first few years open, but as the reading level goes up, the scores will go up. It takes time. These teachers are proud of what they do, they work hard, and they are rewarded for it. THAT, is what should be happening in all schools. But what do we have. If a teacher is put on a growth plan, they immediately cry to their reps in their union or teacher organization, and are either pulled off the growth plan and put back on a regular contract, or the Principal is told that he/she will need 2 years of documentation to put the teacher back on a growth plan or change the contract. Some people just should not be teachers and those people usually can be seen within the first 2 years. We should be paying teachers in some areas 2x what they are making. We should be developing solid mentor programs in schools.

I teach what walks through my doors, I realize that that is the best those parents have to offer, and I will work my ass off to make sure that their child is successful. I bother the hell out of my parents, it pisses them off, but it works. There is a way to teach tough kids, but it takes time, patience, and a lot of desire. That won't always come from the kiddos, it won't always come from the parents, but it must come from the teacher.

But, I digress....

Back to the topic at hand. The Oppressive Growing Police State? Yes, I am a dictator in my classroom, and it works.